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Old February 19th, 2012, 06:03 PM   #761
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I'm afraid it's not possible to compare any tram with the underailable tank called Konstal 105N.
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Old February 19th, 2012, 11:26 PM   #762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramwayman View Post
Quickly? Prague trams go very slow on junctions
Wanna know what is fast cornering and how to run over the junctions wihouth slowing down here GDANSK watch this fully and you'll understand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7guMEisXx8o

In German cities trams slow down a little on junctions, Czech are very slow in tram driving I have seen all of the videos over youtube of tram driving in Prague and in all over the world but I think there driving is awfull
now see this new video from prague shot in January 2012 on line 19 in HD they run slow and very slow on any junction new or old doesn't matter.
In Lehovec rails are recosntructed but the ride quality is not very good well at lest in this video from there to the final part it's awfull.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5HwI...f5FUAAAAHgAAAA
I don't know how far "west" you've travelled Tramwayman but if you want to see slow driving you've seen nothing yet! The important factor in moving along for public transport is average speed and the average speed in Prague is quite high and they achieve this by other means such as acceleration, dwell times and short traffic light cycles (that favour trams). I know they slow down on points but to me this is just sensible preservation of infrastructure that is extremely heavily used. They're not so slow on curves however. If you watch Citadis trams on new systems you'll see them going dead slow on both curves and points. And then their operators don't use the acceleration/deceleration potential so the average speed is low. And their fixed bogies still chew away at those rails that will one day have to be jackhammered out of that mass concrete to be replaced.

I can see Tbilisi has a case of the "Mayor" syndrome. One thing certain around the world with cities wanting new light rail systems is that there is inevitably a Mayor who doesn't know anything about trams but has strong opinions (we have plenty of these in Australia - we can send you more if you like). Usually these Mayors have been to France and because the French are very good at the art of seduction the Mayors come back wanting a French light rail system. However does your Mayor know that the average speed of the Nice line, for example, is only 11 km/h and has he seen a Citadis knocked off the tracks by a Renault Clio weighing only 1 tonne? Indeed a Citadis in Dublin was derailed when it ran over a jacket somebody dropped on the points!

Re Inekon, I think they are trying to be kind to Tbilisi by suggesting something affordable. I suspect this may be what they are proposing:

http://inekon-trams.com/tramway_tracks.html

Probably not the best in your mind. I would still like to know from somebody in CZ there what is the per km cost of laying track in concrete, then you might have something to compare properly.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:48 AM   #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by historyworks View Post
I know they slow down on points but to me this is just sensible preservation of infrastructure that is extremely heavily used. They're not so slow on curves however. If you watch Citadis trams on new systems you'll see them going dead slow on both curves and points. And then their operators don't use the acceleration/deceleration potential so the average speed is low. And their fixed bogies still chew away at those rails that will one day have to be jackhammered out of that mass concrete to be replaced.

However does your Mayor know that the average speed of the Nice line, for example, is only 11 km/h and has he seen a Citadis knocked off the tracks by a Renault Clio weighing only 1 tonne? Indeed a Citadis in Dublin was derailed when it ran over a jacket somebody dropped on the points!
Citadis trams going very slow on junction points and curves? are you sure you're not saying this because of Melbourne tram system where trams run on streets almost everrywhere. this depends of tram system and schedule they use.

See this Lyon T3 in HD well the cameraman is zooming the camera but the tram goes up to 70 km/h especially see the minutes 22:00-22:35 how fast without any slowing down it goes on betweentrack junction point and on other points too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSYH_lhEDEw

In Prague on lines segregated like this for example in Levskeho on junctions trams slow down on points. Also on sidliste Repy on new tracks they slow down to 5 kmh around motol depot on new points. The junction tracks they use in Prague are not designed for high speed that's there problem.

Tram line in Nice is very curvey and is not designed to be high speed in Tbilisi the tram lines they are planning are all on highways and straight way suburbs where trams can speed up to 80 or more km/h and Georgian people love speed they don't even care the traffic speed reduce which is 60 km/h they still go as fast as they want. Buses do this as well minibuses as well for example bus number 24 which I use several times a week in the suburb where I live accelerated to 116 km/h and the normal speed for them is 80-90 km/h.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 03:42 AM   #764
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Citadis Melbourne:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVyZuYfyQxs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMOCKiQr5hE
Lyon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrrhhZe6cfI
(escargot in appearance and operation!)

Combino and normal bogie tram going round corner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0032ZTy2p1w

In fact mostly a straight line in Nice but even a cyclist can overtake this tram!
http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/T_Nice-1.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKAoq...eature=related
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Old February 20th, 2012, 11:12 AM   #765
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The perception of speed in the video, shot from the first person point of view, is very distorted. The Nice tram ride seems slow, but only as you see the cyclist overtaking the tram you realize how slow it is.
You better compare hard numbers, because that's what counts in the end.
It is not important, whether the top speed is 100km/h or 70km/h, but what is your final travel time.
And any manufacturer will make you a tram with top speed at least 80km/h, even the 15T has technical limit between 80-100, only in Prague it is electronically limited to 60, in Riga to 70, due to legal restrictions. In CZ even city buses with standing passengers are limited to 70.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 12:05 PM   #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sch1 View Post
The perception of speed in the video, shot from the first person point of view, is very distorted. The Nice tram ride seems slow, but only as you see the cyclist overtaking the tram you realize how slow it is.
You better compare hard numbers, because that's what counts in the end.
It is not important, whether the top speed is 100km/h or 70km/h, but what is your final travel time.
And any manufacturer will make you a tram with top speed at least 80km/h, even the 15T has technical limit between 80-100, only in Prague it is electronically limited to 60, in Riga to 70, due to legal restrictions. In CZ even city buses with standing passengers are limited to 70.
Yes that's why I say average speed is the most important thing. My knowledge of the Nice average speed/journey time comes from a timetable linked to that web page I quoted. Part 1 of that Nice video also shows the speedometer (generally about 30-40 km/h). I don't go by perception but have been researching timetables and distances around the world to compare - not an easy task in multiple languages!
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Old February 20th, 2012, 06:04 PM   #767
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That's the thing I was saying, no matter what type of tram is present it depends on time table they use for a certain route. But the fact that each of them can turn fast or go on points faster it's a fact just in Prague they slow down too much while they can do that faster and I don't know the reason, even the tracks are not good in may suburbs it's not necessary to run that slow tram is not a toy in Russian cities in Ukraine in my town Tbilisi or in several Polish towns the tracks are awful but the speed is the same or even more in many conditions then in Prague.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 06:46 PM   #768
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Speed limits on the switches:
10kph: on a diverging switch when turning
15kph:
- on a diverging switch when going straight
- on a merging switch coming from a turn
- on a crossing
30kph: on a merging switch when going straight

So there.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 09:49 PM   #769
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Speed limit in Australia on any points and on curves less than 25 metres for any fixed bogie tram (Citadis, Combino): 5 km/h.

Bobek_Azbest is there a different speed limit for Skoda 14T on points or only on curves?

Have you been to Prague Tramwayman? If you have you will see that the speed on points makes no practical difference to the overall journey average which is still quite fast due to other compensating factors I mentioned before. There are not so many points on the average line for it to be a big issue.
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Last edited by historyworks; February 20th, 2012 at 10:23 PM.
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Old February 20th, 2012, 11:30 PM   #770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobek_Azbest View Post
Speed limits on the switches:
10kph: on a diverging switch when turning
15kph:
- on a diverging switch when going straight
- on a merging switch coming from a turn
- on a crossing
30kph: on a merging switch when going straight

So there.
Yes this are standards but I see that in Germany for example or in Poland they don't really care
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Old February 23rd, 2012, 09:29 PM   #771
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Hi!

I saw in the Olomoucky Denik that Olomouc is buying a bunch of new trams. Does anyone here know what trams they are getting? I guess at least some of them will be meant for the new Nove Sady line and need to have driving cabs in both ends.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #772
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Speed for crossing of the turnouts are gained from DPP (Transport authority) and they are choosen as a balance between speed and wear.

Present regulations for renewals:
All rails for curves under 200m radius are bended off the construcion site in the factory, on stationary computer guided bending machine.
All newly reconstructed tracks have trasition curves.
All joints are electro welded (termit is banned), and for the reconstrucion in Podolská DPP ordred even defectoscopy. So what do you see is temporary construction.
Operating speed is 60km/h and the trams are prefered on 90% traffic lights, from this advantage are gained relatively high average speed.


German cities have two times bigger budget for maintance and reconstruction works. For example Zurich (I now that is not Germany can afford the complete renewall of its network every ten years!

In the Poland is huge problem with undisciplined drivers. Speed resctricions in are the same as in Czech rep., not to mention that state of the infrastructure in the cites like Katowice or Lodz are completly crappy and according to the Czech regulations (as like their own) they should be immediately shut down due the state of tracks.

So the speeds in the tight curves depends on the level finances in the city budget and the discipline of the tram drivers, rather than the real state of the tracks.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rejow View Post
Speed for crossing of the turnouts are gained from DPP (Transport authority) and they are choosen as a balance between speed and wear.

Present regulations for renewals:
All rails for curves under 200m radius are bended off the construcion site in the factory, on stationary computer guided bending machine.
All newly reconstructed tracks have trasition curves.
All joints are electro welded (termit is banned), and for the reconstrucion in Podolská DPP ordred even defectoscopy. So what do you see is temporary construction.
Operating speed is 60km/h and the trams are prefered on 90% traffic lights, from this advantage are gained relatively high average speed.


German cities have two times bigger budget for maintance and reconstruction works. For example Zurich (I now that is not Germany can afford the complete renewall of its network every ten years!

In the Poland is huge problem with undisciplined drivers. Speed resctricions in are the same as in Czech rep., not to mention that state of the infrastructure in the cites like Katowice or Lodz are completly crappy and according to the Czech regulations (as like their own) they should be immediately shut down due the state of tracks.

So the speeds in the tight curves depends on the level finances in the city budget and the discipline of the tram drivers, rather than the real state of the tracks.
Well if a discipline means going so slowly on every inch of little problem then it's really crappy.

Track state in Prague is not such alarming to go so slowly, trams can run at much higher speed on tracks much more crappy as we can see in Poland or in Russian or Ukrainian cities even here in my country.

It's just depends on type of nation, it seems you love going slowly if you call this a discipline of course.

IN German cities the points and curves are not crappy (mainly) vut they still run faster on this parts then in Czech, so are they not disciplined as well?

So I see that the schedule in Polish cities as well as in German cities are made of higher speed cause if a tram will run too fast (out of schedule) it wiil run into another tram and will have to go behind it till the end, so I see that their schedules are made so that the drivers could run fast on every type of tracks so it means not just the drivers but all above them are undisciplined hahahaha
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Old February 26th, 2012, 02:49 AM   #774
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I'd have to say again Tramwayman have you been to CZ? Czech tramways are not slow, they are some of the fastest street tramways in the west. If you want to see slow come to Australia and I'll show you plenty of it!

Edit: so what's happening in Tbilisi now that an impasse has been reached with the council and mayor?
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Old February 28th, 2012, 02:08 AM   #775
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I've not seen that question in the thread.

Do you know why they are some bidirectional trams on the network (about 47 Tatra KT8D5) while there are only loops at every end of the lines ?

The new trams (Skoda 14 and 15 TR) aren't bidirectional, so I don't understand the choice to buy just a few of it ?
And there are on many different lines, so I really don't understand...
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Old February 28th, 2012, 10:08 AM   #776
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The answer is simple. In case of construction, the lines are sometimes temporarily terminated on straight tracks using a Californien on surface exchange.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...jpg?uselang=cs
Therefore it is good to have some bidirectional trams for these cases, but you don't need many, since in regular service you don't need them.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 04:20 PM   #777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sch1 View Post
The answer is simple. In case of construction, the lines are sometimes temporarily terminated on straight tracks using a Californien on surface exchange.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...jpg?uselang=cs
Therefore it is good to have some bidirectional trams for these cases, but you don't need many, since in regular service you don't need them.
Thank you very much, that what I thought !
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Old February 29th, 2012, 02:15 AM   #778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sch1 View Post
The answer is simple. In case of construction, the lines are sometimes temporarily terminated on straight tracks using a Californien on surface exchange.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...jpg?uselang=cs
Therefore it is good to have some bidirectional trams for these cases, but you don't need many, since in regular service you don't need them.
Californien? Is this the name of the temporary crossover? We have some from Prague in Melbourne. Why are they called californien?

Re KT8 I suspect temporary bidirectional operation is not the only reason. I wonder why Tatra, which always produced unidirectional trams for Comecon market, suddenly decided to produce a bidirectional tram. Was it for export markets outside Comecon? (Of course they were successful in Manilla.) So since it was not exported much was there political pressure on Comecon systems to buy it even if they didn't need a bidirectional tram? Or was its attraction as a 30 metre articulated tram? If so, why didn't they produce a unidirectional version?

So many questions, my apologies!
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Old February 29th, 2012, 12:20 PM   #779
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Californien is the name of the temporary crossover, manufactured in 1995 by KIHN Luxembourg. I do not know why is it called so, maybe Bobek_Azbest would know more.
http//www.prazsketramvaje.cz/view.php?cisloclanku=2006041299 only in Czech.

The political request was high capacity articulated and bidirectional tram. But don't know why bidirectional. They run only in former Czechoslovakia and Pchjongjang. Only in Brno is one terminus without loop. Other Comecon countries ordered T3's. Maybe it was really only a political idea.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #780
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No clue about how the Californien got its name.

KT8s were designed with new fast systems in mind (probably only in cases of Volgograd and Manila this actually became true). There were also other versions proposed, KT8A5 being the unidirectional one, but they never entered production. The list of places where they can be seen is actually a bit longer then just exCS and DPRK. A few can be seen in Sarajevo (one delivered as new), Miskolc and Strausberg, one is in Volgograd (also delivered as new). Otherwise unnecessary trams from Most and Košice are running in these places.

DPO (Ostrava) rebuit their KT8D5s to unidirectional:

(image from wikipedia)

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