daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > North American Skyscrapers Forum > United States Urban Issues > Midwest and Plains > Development News



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 20th, 2012, 06:18 AM   #7681
Fillmore
Fillmore
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 161
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by titletown View Post
Fillmore forgot to take his/her Prozac today. You sound like a very educated person in your posts! Bloody troll
No prozac here, hillbilly. I don't need it anymore since I was smart enough to get out of Crap Brown County. See, I live in an actual city where I don't have to dwell on what could be or what should have been like you do in Green Bay. Your crap town is a joke...and you know it. I genuinely feel sorry for you. Sheboygan has more of a skyline, and for that matter, more class. Ya go Packers!
Fillmore no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old February 20th, 2012, 04:50 PM   #7682
900
Divisible by 3
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Green Bay, Wisc.
Posts: 12
Likes (Received): 2

Class

Thanks Fillmore for showing us what it means to be classy. Also, thanks for leaving; I'm sure that you will be more appreciated in DC.
900 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2012, 05:18 PM   #7683
Green Bay 4 Life
Green Bay, WI
 
Green Bay 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 398
Likes (Received): 35

Wow...

First of all, I think we all know Green Bay isn't perfect. But here's the thing - either is Madison or Milwaukee or Appleton or anywhere in the world for that matter. Every place has things that won't appeal to every single person in the world. We all have different tastes. If you're looking for world class museums, an unmatched nightlife, and a downtown with tall buildings. Yes, Green Bay may not be for you. If you are looking for a mjority of good, friendly people, a great place to raise a family, relatively safe normal pace of life. Then maybe, this is your place.

There is an arena here that could host an event such as the WIAA Tournament. If they are just using Green Bay to get a sweeter deal in Madison, then so be it. But all in all - it is about going and seeing your child, school, etc in the tournament. Not about where it is being held. I'm sure 20 years from now if you ask someone who's team won or lost the in the State Tournament what their most lasting memory is from that they will say the game not where it was located...
Green Bay 4 Life no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2012, 06:23 PM   #7684
Fillmore
Fillmore
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 161
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by 900 View Post
Thanks Fillmore for showing us what it means to be classy. Also, thanks for leaving; I'm sure that you will be more appreciated in DC.
Listen, I've been on this forum for 7 years and have enjoyed it. I would really like to see Green Bay do well, but being called a bloody troll for expressing my true opinions is not cool. I'm a graduate of UWGB and have an MS in mechanical engineering from UW Madison. I still have family in De Pere and each time I go home I get frustrated because people in Green Bay, and obviously I'm generalizing, seem to live for one thing, the Packers. I used to walk around Broadway and Washington street hoping to one day witness a thriving metro area, even one sans towers, but that has not come to fruition. I've been an advocate of Green Bay since Jillians and Gallaghers pizza opened and I was sad when they both went under. With regards to the Packers, The NFL doesn't make Green Bay special, or world class, or anything, and I've been saying from the start that the Packers do more harm than good for DEVELOPMENT in Green Bay. I was one of the first people to purchase a unit at Astor Place in 2005. My plan was to rent it out to see how the city could materialize and what businesses would be attracted to the downtown area. I imagined selling the place twenty years down the road and wishing the emerald city good luck. But that never happened. Jen Kuo called me and told me the project fell through. All that hype for nothing! Lastly, if you're wonder why Schreiber isn't building a tower, I believe it's because the second people see a larger building downtown Green Bay loses its credibility as a small town with an NFL team. While the metro population wouldn't increase, the sense would be that Green Bay "isn't so small anymore" because there are large buildings downtown. The landscape is primed for wonderful river development, but as long as the Packers run that town, you'll have to admire the view from the top of the OLD Younkers building.

Last edited by Fillmore; February 20th, 2012 at 06:35 PM.
Fillmore no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #7685
900
Divisible by 3
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Green Bay, Wisc.
Posts: 12
Likes (Received): 2

I'm not the one calling everything crap. If you think a place is crap, there are three responses you can take: 1. Make it better, 2. Do nothing and spend your life frustrated about it, and 3. leave. Personally, I'm so busy working on number 1 that I don't have time to dwell on Green Bay's downsides. Obviously, since I'm hiding behind a number you'll have to take my word for this. As for you, you've chosen number 3, which I sincerely think is great because many more opt for number 2 and those are the people who frustrate me the most. If you choose to live in a community, be constructive. I hope that you're being constructive in DC. Your last couple of comments here on this forum certainly haven't been very constructive.

The reason that Schreiber isn't building a tower is because they don't need one. They're in the food industry, not real estate development. Your conspiracy is pretty absurd; especially since the NFL always seems to point their cameras at the corner of Broadway and Walnut—no matter what we do downtown. Downtown Green Bay has seen enormous positive change since 2005, despite a major economic slow down. Currently there is a lot of evidence that things are getting back on track for further growth. Gallagher's went out of business because they took on too much debt and didn't really know what they were doing. They had issues with enormous food cost wastage, employee theft, and other things. Compare them to Titletown & Hinterland from the same period, they know how to run a restaurant successfully. Furthermore, your obsession with skylines is bizarre. Downtown Green Bay is never going to look like Downtown Milwaukee. There are a lot of reasons for this, principally that our area's larger employers seem to prefer large campuses, take Humana for example. This probably has something to do with real estate costs. Schreiber could certainly have made this choice too, and the fact that they didn't has a lot to do with how much the downtown has improved since 2005. But none of this is probably happening fast enough for you as a consumer, so it's good that you can go out for Ethiopian food in Adams-Morgan. Personally, I'll be trying to help Somali refugees get an East African restaurant up and running in Green Bay.

Last edited by 900; February 20th, 2012 at 07:48 PM.
900 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2012, 08:24 PM   #7686
Fillmore
Fillmore
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 161
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by 900 View Post
I'm not the one calling everything crap. If you think a place is crap, there are three responses you can take: 1. Make it better, 2. Do nothing and spend your life frustrated about it, and 3. leave. Personally, I'm so busy working on number 1 that I don't have time to dwell on Green Bay's downsides. Obviously, since I'm hiding behind a number you'll have to take my word for this. As for you, you've chosen number 3, which I sincerely think is great because many more opt for number 2 and those are the people who frustrate me the most. If you choose to live in a community, be constructive. I hope that you're being constructive in DC. Your last couple of comments here on this forum certainly haven't been very constructive.

The reason that Schreiber isn't building a tower is because they don't need one. They're in the food industry, not real estate development. Your conspiracy is pretty absurd; especially since the NFL always seems to point their cameras at the corner of Broadway and Walnut—no matter what we do downtown. Downtown Green Bay has seen enormous positive change since 2005, despite a major economic slow down. Currently there is a lot of evidence that things are getting back on track for further growth. Gallagher's went out of business because they took on too much debt and didn't really know what they were doing. They had issues with enormous food cost wastage, employee theft, and other things. Compare them to Titletown & Hinterland from the same period, they know how to run a restaurant successfully. Furthermore, your obsession with skylines is bizarre. Downtown Green Bay is never going to look like Downtown Milwaukee. There are a lot of reasons for this, principally that our area's larger employers seem to prefer large campuses, take Humana for example. This probably has something to do with real estate costs. Schreiber could certainly have made this choice too, and the fact that they didn't has a lot to do with how much the downtown has improved since 2005. But none of this is probably happening fast enough for you as a consumer, so it's good that you can go out for Ethiopian food in Adams-Morgan. Personally, I'll be trying to help Somali refugees get an East African restaurant up and running in Green Bay.
My obsession with skylines, as you call it, isn't bizarre, nor is it unique, nor it is an obsession. I believe in progress and want cities to succeed and I appreciate the beauty of cities, especially those with beacons of accomplishment. There are millions of people in this great world who love skylines and city development--they're called Ayn Randians--not because there is something wrong with them, but because they can look at a building and see the thousands of hours of thinking and planning that went into constructing it. Every single person in this forum would love to see Shreiber build a tower of, say, 20 stories to serve as a true catalyst for a cityscape; they'd be lying if they stated otherwise. You would know this if this wasn't your first day, rookie! For you to claim that Schreiber isn't in the real estate business is just absurd. Every business is in the real estate business. They're taking a gamble on downtown and they hope it pays off. And the NFL points their cameras downtown because the gameday landscape is often desolate and reflects a "city" completely enamored with its football team. You need guys like me in this forum to provide a different perspective, no matter how strange or conspiratorial it appears. Green Bay is a nice place to live, but unfortunately its been branded by the NFL, and this has had a detrimental effect on non-NFL development, most notably in the downtown area. I hope you get that restaurant up and running. I'd be happy to come in and spend some money there.
Fillmore no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2012, 08:52 PM   #7687
900
Divisible by 3
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Green Bay, Wisc.
Posts: 12
Likes (Received): 2

Awesome, glad that we have a Randian superman producer type to call us hillbillies, rookies, etc. to put us in our place because our city is a joke. If that's the perspective that you bring, then I'm sure that you're a valued member of this forum.
900 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2012, 09:43 PM   #7688
Geography Teacher
I Like Maps
 
Geography Teacher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 256
Likes (Received): 22

Love It Or Leave It?

When a friend or rival talks about how great their city is (Chicago, New York, Washington DC, etc.), they fail to mention that they had very little to do with that greatness. Most of the time, they were just fortunate to grow up there, and New York would be just as wonderful had he or she never been born. Great cities are products of their geography, and historical patterns to a lesser extent.

Now, if a person leaves Green Bay to become a part of an already great city, I suppose we have to credit that person for making a choice. But we also have to remember -- as a couple of you have mentioned -- that this is a choice to give up on your old city and be part of a new one. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that ("to each their own"). But I too am an educated urbanphile who has chosen to raise a family in a safe, pleasant, and fun environment rather than head off to the big city. I'd rather try to contribute to making this place better than to be a tiny cog in the machine that is an existing world class city.

So again, people have the right to live where they want. But it's understandable that others would be hurt by comments that mock their pride and commitment to their home.
Geography Teacher no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2012, 10:05 PM   #7689
gbmphillips
Registered User
 
gbmphillips's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 684
Likes (Received): 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmore View Post
Sorry, no Prozac here. You see, I don't need it because I don't live in dreaded Green Bay anymore. I was smart enough and educated enough to get out. What a joke your little crap town is, hillbilly.
And we thank you for leaving, you must fit in well in that hell whole DC where dishonesty is the norm and arrogance is a disease.
gbmphillips no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2012, 10:13 PM   #7690
gbmphillips
Registered User
 
gbmphillips's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 684
Likes (Received): 99

Lets see would I prefer to live in a town full of "hillbillies" as Fillmore called us or a city where violence is the norm

According to Uniform Crime Report statistics compiled by the FBI, there were 1,330.2 violent crimes per 100,000 people reported in the District of Columbia in 2010. There were also 4,778.9 property crimes per 100,000 reported during the same period.Violent crime is still more than three times the national average of 403.6 reported offenses per 100,000 people in 2010.

Yeah Fillmore you can have your big city life people live in Green Bay because they know it is a safe community and the people who live here are not animals, unlike DC,
gbmphillips no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2012, 10:32 PM   #7691
Nativist
Participant
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 263
Likes (Received): 31

I always thought that it was funny how the Ayn Rand crowd fetishized modern architecture when modernism was created by—mostly—socialists. But then I'm not smart enough or educated enough to live outside of Green Bay, so what do I know?
__________________
Technically, I'm more of a native than a nativist...

Last edited by Nativist; February 20th, 2012 at 10:35 PM. Reason: concision
Nativist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 20th, 2012, 10:43 PM   #7692
Green Bay 4 Life
Green Bay, WI
 
Green Bay 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 398
Likes (Received): 35

And Washington DC has a great skyline of tall buildings... Oh wait. Nevermind. Who cares? Are we actually talking about this?

Just think of the possible progress we coudls ee soon. The Watermark finally opening, expansion of KI, Schrieber Foods Campus, BC Library renovation, City Deck Phase II and III completeion, possible Daily Planet Development proposal, and the Larsen Green Residential. Wow, for a City our size - to have that many things kicking around in the downtown is pretty significant. Sure it pales in comparison with some of the grander things going on in other places - but for those that know Green Bay - I mean really know Green Bay, these projects are transforming the image of our City. It won't happen all at once - but the next two years could be the most significant timeframe in our downtown since it was cleared for the mall. This is the time the City takes its downtown back. Sure we may not have a 20 story building (yet or ever) but if there is activity, great places to eat, corporations that have committed to being there, interest in people to live there - then that is a hell of a lot better than it was in the early 2000's. What a difference 10 years makes.

Oh and as far as the skyline being dicated by the NFL. Total BS. If you could see the propoals that have been picthed for downtown that included a number of buildings in the 12, 15, 17, and 20+ story range - then you know that it wasn't the NFL that said that - it was the market that dictated the need for that. It's not a conspiracy theory and no, the NFL is not rigged.
Green Bay 4 Life no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2012, 12:48 AM   #7693
GBObserver
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 156
Likes (Received): 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Bay 4 Life View Post
And Washington DC has a great skyline of tall buildings... Oh wait. Nevermind. Who cares? Are we actually talking about this?

Just think of the possible progress we coudls ee soon. The Watermark finally opening, expansion of KI, Schrieber Foods Campus, BC Library renovation, City Deck Phase II and III completeion, possible Daily Planet Development proposal, and the Larsen Green Residential. Wow, for a City our size - to have that many things kicking around in the downtown is pretty significant. Sure it pales in comparison with some of the grander things going on in other places - but for those that know Green Bay - I mean really know Green Bay, these projects are transforming the image of our City. It won't happen all at once - but the next two years could be the most significant timeframe in our downtown since it was cleared for the mall. This is the time the City takes its downtown back. Sure we may not have a 20 story building (yet or ever) but if there is activity, great places to eat, corporations that have committed to being there, interest in people to live there - then that is a hell of a lot better than it was in the early 2000's. What a difference 10 years makes.
This forum IS on a site called skyscraper city.... just sayin'.

For those of us young professionals who don't have children, having loads of playgrounds, no traffic, and the option to leave my doors unlocked is simply not enough to make this a "great" place to live. Some of us have been bashing our heads against the stagnant boards comprised of the same 20 people who seem to sit on every board who much prefer to "discuss" things than actually DO things.

More importantly, while great restaurants will be opening in the short term view, this city grossly lacks sustainable incomes. The Life Study shows that the AVERAGE income for women in this city is a paltry $23,000 even with advanced degrees factored in. I see proof of this embarrassing figure every day. Unless one owns a business here, earning an income that is sustainable is not likely. Statistics repeatedly show that importing talent from outside the area is where the "good" money comes from in many cases. Those two categories (business owners and imported talent) are the people who are supporting our new restaurant base in downtown because they are the ones who can afford high end dining.

I would agree that this city has far too many people who refuse willing, interested volunteers and prefer to do things the "right way" by doing it themselves than to allow others involvement (i.e. never get anything done because there is so much to do.)

With that said, there are good things beginning to happen here though it has taken more than a decade. The Neville, the entertainment lineup at the Resch, building development, restaurants, etc. It just took SO long that I, too, am in the process of throwing in the towel and looking to move to a state that pays better.
GBObserver no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2012, 02:15 AM   #7694
Danillo
National Parks Artist
 
Danillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Green Bay, WI
Posts: 896
Likes (Received): 102

So, Fillmore, I just want to be clear here. In your argument that the Packers are stopping tall buildings from being built (which you have never supported with a single fact), you claim Schreiber, a business that does $4 billion in annual sales, is changing their plans so that the Packers won't have even a hint of anything that gets in their way of seeming "small town." Do you really think that businesses like Schreiber grow that large by caving to the whim of some totally unrelated business just for appearance's sake? If that's what you believe, then you, sir, are an idiot, and the last person who should be telling all of us hicks how it really is.
__________________
Visit my National Parks art website at: www.nationalparksartist.com
Danillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2012, 02:23 AM   #7695
Danillo
National Parks Artist
 
Danillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Green Bay, WI
Posts: 896
Likes (Received): 102

GBObserver: I'd argue there's a real need for expanding the are Colleges and Universities, so that we can produce a more educated workforce. That's something that was beginning to happen, but has slowed in recent years. Anyway, here's a link to the LIFE Study, which is interesting: http://www.lifestudy.info/
__________________
Visit my National Parks art website at: www.nationalparksartist.com
Danillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2012, 02:56 AM   #7696
Puant
Registered User
 
Puant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 1,303
Likes (Received): 19

my home-spun folksy wisdom of the day

We could go on & on here but in the end, it is true that we are about has happy about a situation as we choose to be.

If we decide we like big cities, then that's where we'll want to be.

If we decide we like a medium-sized city whose leaders 40 years ago felt the best chance to save the downtown was to suburbanize it, then we are happy in that medium-sized city.

For me, it's more about the people...this is where I've got most of my friends and relationships and connections. I didn't grow up here but after 11 years living here and raising 3 kids here, this is where I am happy to stay for now.

By the way, I'm with the camp who says that if we don't like something, we should work to change it. OK it is entertaining to make fun of things and complain once in a while, but don't be all serious about it for too long or it WILL be depressing.

If there's any time to be truly optimistic about the direction the downtown is finally going, NOW is the time. It's no longer just hear-say, talk or plans...things are ACTUALLY happening...LOTS of things.

No, not skyscrapers. I'm fine with that. I'd rather have a bunch of quality 3-5 story buildings that together make a good urban setting than a crappy tower that, if it fails, is another big albatross. I go back to Jane Jacobs and her famous book, "Death & Life of Great American Cities" on this. She was a New Yorker, but she would agree.

One other thing: Green Bay's geology has a lot to do with our lack of tall structures. The bedrock is quite deep, someone would have to be willing to spend A LOT on the foundation to go tall here.

Well, got to get back to my hillbillyin'. Aw shucks.
Puant no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2012, 03:18 AM   #7697
Fillmore
Fillmore
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 161
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danillo View Post
So, Fillmore, I just want to be clear here. In your argument that the Packers are stopping tall buildings from being built (which you have never supported with a single fact), you claim Schreiber, a business that does $4 billion in annual sales, is changing their plans so that the Packers won't have even a hint of anything that gets in their way of seeming "small town." Do you really think that businesses like Schreiber grow that large by caving to the whim of some totally unrelated business just for appearance's sake? If that's what you believe, then you, sir, are an idiot, and the last person who should be telling all of us hicks how it really is.
That's exactly what I'm saying; the minute GB shows a hint of being metropolitan the Packers lose credibility. The name of the restaurant in the yonkers development will even be Packers related. Pathetic. Let me ask, how many of you out there put down a deposit for an Astor Place condo? I'm sure I was the only one. You can call me whatever you want, I didn't initiate the name calling and I've been on this forum along time providing positive feedback. Correct, I didn't build Washington, but I've tried to help build Green Bay and shared in the agony of witnessing myriad projects fall flat on their face. You guys can't convince me that the Packers don't have an interest in developments in Green Bay, especially if said projects draw people away from Lambeau? Sorry, Green Bay is owned by the Packers.
Fillmore no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2012, 03:53 AM   #7698
Puant
Registered User
 
Puant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 1,303
Likes (Received): 19

I would say it's in the Packer's best interest to have a more developed downtown, because that may make it easier to bring guys in here. A lot of the Packer players and coaches do own or rent the condos that are downtown, and I think new downtown development would make the city just a little bit more attractive to some players & coaches.

Given the size relative to other NFL cities, of course you could say the Packers have more overall influence here. They probably do. I'd say most of us choose to think about other things (especially this time of year). End of Packer-related discussion, I hope. As it is the downtown has little to do with the Packers now. I'm just happy to see some momentum building.
Puant no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2012, 06:29 AM   #7699
Danillo
National Parks Artist
 
Danillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Green Bay, WI
Posts: 896
Likes (Received): 102

I'm not saying the Packers don't have an interest (though probably not all that much) in downtown development, what I am saying is that companies that do $4 billion a year in business aren't dictated to by football teams. Their HQs aren't influenced remotely by the whims of football teams. You may have put a deposit down on a condo here, but that doesn't mean a company like Schreiber is listening to a football team while they are planning their headquarters, and you've yet to provide even one bit of evidence that the Packers have negatively influenced even one downtown project. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Your claims are not just lacking extraordinary proof, they are lacking proof of any kind and are furthermore self-evidently ridiculous when one considers the parties involved.
__________________
Visit my National Parks art website at: www.nationalparksartist.com
Danillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 21st, 2012, 06:58 AM   #7700
Milley29
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Green Bay
Posts: 171
Likes (Received): 39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmore View Post
You guys can't convince me that the Packers don't have an interest in developments in Green Bay, especially if said projects draw people away from Lambeau? Sorry, Green Bay is owned by the Packers.
I don't believe this town is run by the Packers, nor do I believe that the Packers are intentionally trying to stymie development for their own gain. The Packers would likely be the largest beneficiary of development because it puts more money in people's pockets, who will in turn spend it on them. Plus they don't own all of Ashwaubenon; they still need cooperation and support from government and citizens to get their projects done. Green Bay is still a small town and by comparison always will be to all other NFL cities, and we are often reminded about how small market Buffalo and Jacksonville are.

Fillmore seems more annoyed by the fact that the Packers are the defining aspect of Green Bay and is blaming all of Green Bay's development failures on it. In fact, they are our greatest asset. The Packers are what differentiates us from Kenosha, and Duluth. I enjoy it, and so do a lot of other people, but not everyone, which is fine. There is plenty of exciting things happening in Downtown that have nothing to do with the Packers. Fine, the restaurant is named after the Packer's old stadium and there will be Packer's merchandise on the walls but there aren't many places in town that don't. I welcome the Packers and everything they bring to the city.
Milley29 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
green bay, wisconsin

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.5 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu