...Sandton *Discussion & Gallery*

[Nostra]

By the way, even the problem with JHB's finances is being tackled and already yielding results. You can't do much about problems but as long as there are signs that the govt listens to the population and makes an effort to tackle problems, I will remain hopeful. Nobody said democracy means living in an ideal country with perfectly manicured lawsn, democracy offers you a chance to solve problems that arise...

Better-than-expected figures for the first half of the financial year signal “a growing confidence among ratepayers who contribute to the city’s coffers”.
JOHANNESBURG is ahead of its revenue collection targets and the City is on track to meet the goals set in the 2011/12 Budget.

MMC for finance Geoffrey MakhuboThe member of the mayoral committee for finance, Geoff Makhubo, says “figures for the first half of the financial year reflect the robust health of the Johannesburg finances and a growing confidence among ratepayers who contribute to the city’s coffers”.

“We are making steady progress to strengthen our revenue collection service and restore confidence in the integrity of our billing data,” he says.

“The Revenue Roadmap announced in November is already achieving measurable results and we are getting positive feedback from ratepayers whose billing concerns are being resolved.”

The six-months’ figures as compiled at the end of January show that Johannesburg collected R11,86-billion, which is 50,6 percent of the adjusted budget of R23,4-billion.

“We have exceeded our revenue targets by R466,2-million and I am confident that we will also meet the 12-month goals,” says Makhubo.

Johannesburg had a cash balance of over R2-billion at the end of January which reflects the healthy financial position of the City.

“Our new revenue and customer relations system is being put place over a 19-month period but we are already seeing improved results. We are improving the quality of the customer’s interaction with the City and introducing a step change in our collection system.

“Our customers are showing greater inclination to pay for services such as water, electricity and waste removal as they gain more confidence in the data that are reflected on their bills.”

The six-months’ figures also show an operating surplus of R785,8-million – against a budgeted surplus of R688,7-million – while the actual operating expenditure was over budget by R369,1-million.

We have a R2.1 billion sinking fund assets to address our maturing bond. Revenue excluding capital grants as increased by 20 percent year-on-year while our expenditure increased 13 percent year-on-year. This enhanced the ability to meet our obligations.

The City has also put in place a strategy to ensure that expenditure takes place within the revenue envelope. The total operating budget for 2011/2012 was adjusted upwards by R836,8-million to R32,81-billion while the capital budget increased from R3,72-billion to R3,74-billion.

Johannesburg’s budget for the 2012/2013 financial year will be delivered in May.



Read more: http://www.joburg.org.za/index.php?o...#ixzz1nUALXnJk

[Inertia]

I dono sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy and I'm seeing a different world to you guys. But ya i guess some people are just eternal optimists

I haven't changed my opinion and won't until it deserves to be changed; Yes I do live quite an amazing life in SA but I also do in the USA where I live some months of the year... And I must admit the qualify of life is incomparable at times, although I miss Joburg like crazy when I'm away.

Do you really believe everything that's said in that article Nostra after what I posted earlier, the billing crisis, and the huge mess that was discovered in the Western Cape?

[SA BOY]

I'm living in joburg now and i knew what i was getting into by accepting an offer here and don't regret a second. Its brash, its bombastic , its energy, its run down , its beautiful.
currently in a suite on the 18th floor of the sandton sun and have a different perspective of sandton from up here.

[Diggerdog]

Well, yes, it is optimism I suppose.
But again, that does not mean there are not problems, come on, we know them well. We know there are basket case municipalities, for example...this is not just blind happy go lucky optimism.

But then I think that IF Joburg does recover from this disgraceful mess, if it gets a clean audit next time around, then that is progress, that is good.
I don't see how that is living in a dream world.

Each year we are moving closer to a two party political situation, which has created real competition and is increasing the pressure on the ruling party to lift its game.
So I do think the future looks promising.

[Nostra]

[QUOTE=Inertia;88903679]I dono sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy and I'm seeing a different world to you guys. But ya i guess some people are just eternal optimists

I haven't changed my opinion and won't until it deserves to be changed; Yes I do live quite an amazing life in SA but I also do in the USA where I live some months of the year... And I must admit the qualify of life is incomparable at times, although I miss Joburg like crazy when I'm away.

Do you really believe everything that's said in that article Nostra after what I posted earlier, the billing crisis, and the huge mess that was discovered in the Western Cape?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt....

[waltjie]

I find the problem in general in this country right now is that when government, municipalities etc etc take 10 steps back, then not much is said, and if you talk about it you are labelled a pessimist. But then if 1 step is taken forward, everyone talks about the great changes that are occurring. In the long run, everything is deteriorating.

[Inertia]

Originally Posted by waltjie

I find the problem in general in this country right now is that when government, municipalities etc etc take 10 steps back, then not much is said, and if you talk about it you are labelled a pessimist. But then if 1 step is taken forward, everyone talks about the great changes that are occurring. In the long run, everything is deteriorating.

I think you mean that this is the problem with the forum, and I agree 100%!!!

I don't think it's a coincidence that the forum is dead these days, it's because 90% of the news is very negative, but when the odd positive story comes by it's treated as though it trumps all the other negative stories, which it obviously doesn't.

[Lydon]

Originally Posted by waltjie

I find the problem in general in this country right now is that when government, municipalities etc etc take 10 steps back, then not much is said, and if you talk about it you are labelled a pessimist. But then if 1 step is taken forward, everyone talks about the great changes that are occurring. In the long run, everything is deteriorating.

Talking about it isn't the problem. Almost only/only talking about it is.

Originally Posted by Inertia

I don't think it's a coincidence that the forum is dead these days, it's because 90% of the news is very negative, but when the odd positive story comes by it's treated as though it trumps all the other negative stories, which it obviously doesn't.

And why is that bad? This is one of the few places on the internet where South Africans come together in a constructive manner without acting as if the sky is falling on our heads and share mostly positive news and information about the development of our country. Most joined the forum in the first place because it's an excellent resource for individual development-related information.

If I want negative discussion about the country, I have such a wide selection of other forums and websites across the internet because that's unfortunately the habit many of the "have's" for some reason fall into. The last thing I want to see when I log onto SSC is nonsense such as us needing to abandon the country by 2020, especially considering the current picture is looking far rosier compared the the past one or two years.

It's not a matter of burying one's head in the sand. Unfortunately that's pretty much impossible if you have anything resembling a social life. The amount of negative news one encounters between walking the streets to chatter in the workplace is disturbing, so forgive a few people wanting some sort of place to get away from all of that and actually hear something positive for once.

[Inertia]

Originally Posted by Lydon

Talking about it isn't the problem. Almost only/only talking about it is.




And why is that bad? This is one of the few places on the internet where South Africans come together in a constructive manner without acting as if the sky is falling on our heads and share mostly positive news and information about the development of our country. Most joined the forum in the first place because it's an excellent resource for individual development-related information.

If I want negative discussion about the country, I have such a wide selection of other forums and websites across the internet because that's unfortunately the habit many of the "have's" for some reason fall into. The last thing I want to see when I log onto SSC is nonsense such as us needing to abandon the country by 2020, especially considering the current picture is looking far rosier compared the the past one or two years.

It's not a matter of burying one's head in the sand. Unfortunately that's pretty much impossible if you have anything resembling a social life. The amount of negative news one encounters between walking the streets to chatter in the workplace is disturbing, so forgive a few people wanting some sort of place to get away from all of that and actually hear something positive for one.

Yes but we need a balance. Sick of hearing how SSC is the place to come for positive news, and we shouldn't bring negative news here because it's what we hear on a daily basis in our normal lives blah blah. I'm not saying we mustn't post positive news, on the contrary we must post all of it. But it must be balanced with reality. News didn't just suddenly dry up in SA, it's still there but it's mostly bad things, hence why this forum is really quiet.

You ask why it's bad: it's bad because it's not real. One positive story does not trump 10 negative ones. Forgetting about the negative stories is what's dangerous. I think waltjie is spot on and if we don't start realising that SA is in a very bad place at the moment things are going to get worse. And yes, things are bad, no matter what you guys say - it's the reality. First we must accept it, get angry, mad, depressed, and then act on it. You can only measure the positive stories relative to the bad ones.

Case in point, you get every professional from the property developers to the market analysts to the rating agencies telling us the kind of financial shambles the Joburg metro is in, but then a statement on the joburg.gov.za website by some government official telling us there's no crisis and Nostra is prepared to give them the "benefit of the doubt". It's not real guys. It's not reality. Things are bad, they are worse than bad, and we must accept it.

[Lydon]

Originally Posted by Inertia

Yes but we need a balance. Sick of hearing how SSC is the place to come for positive news, and we shouldn't bring negative news here because it's what we hear on a daily basis in our normal lives blah blah. I'm not saying we mustn't post positive news, on the contrary we must post all of it. But it must be balanced with reality. News didn't just suddenly dry up in SA, it's still there but it's mostly bad things, hence why this forum is really quiet.

You ask why it's bad: it's bad because it's not real. One positive story does not trump 10 negative ones. Forgetting about the negative stories is what's dangerous. I think waltjie is spot on and if we don't start realising that SA is in a very bad place at the moment things are going to get worse. And yes, things are bad, no matter what you guys say - it's the reality. First we must accept it, get angry, mad, depressed, and then act on it. You can only measure the positive stories relative to the bad ones.

PS. I'm also of the opinion that things will get a lot worse before they start getting better.

But surely if you're hoping to achieve some sort of balance you should contribute towards that balance? I think people have been getting annoyed because, apart from the odd mildly positive comment on a development or a sports result, you've posted little that hasn't been overly negative.

However, I disagree with you on your second paragraph. What exactly has happened that's suddenly put us in such a bad place? What is worse that it trumps the crap we've had to deal with over the past year or two? The likes of Julius have been dealt with, there are massive rifts within the ruling party and between it and its alliance partners, the recession is over - however slow the recovery may be, we have massive infrastructural investments on the horizon coming off the back of a national budget that received largely positive review, crime is dropping steadily but surely...I could go on.

Like I said - I'm at a complete loss as to what is so bad all of a sudden? Sure, some other fool is likely to rise in Julius' place, but you do realise that's likely to create even more of a split in the ruling party, right? Something that can only mean growth for the opposition.

I think I just find it funny, because I haven't felt this positive about our future since the World Cup.

[Jakes1]

Lets recap.

Some of us are overtly positive? Excuse me for not stating that NOTHING changed in JHB CBD since 2001 and that it is a shithole. Excuse me for not stating that ALL white people should leave the country immediately because it is a shithole that will implode soon. If that is people on this forum on a 'good' day, I don't want to be around for a bad one. I would much rather walk with the photowalkers, jog with the Nike crowd and invite fellow bibliophiles over to my apartment than sit an minge and moan online. Thats why this forum is dead. It is boring. There is nothing new here. What we find here in terms of discussion and attitude we might as well find on news24. I tried to convince Joburg (the poster) to rejoin us, but this is the main reason why he left. And sadly, it is the same reason why I am leaving.

Do you think Joburg is the only city in the world facing challenges? Our company recently did training, with our colleagues from Egypt, India, Brazil and Argentina. Everyone commented on what a great city Joburg is, and how surprized they are regarding how clean it is (Yes, Waltjie, we did the dreaded shithole of a dead CBD walk with them as well). They loved it. I was frustrated at times, mainly because many places of importance are not well-maintained (like Kliptown).

Open your eyes guys. Do you truly believe nothing changed in Joburg? Nothing? Not a thing? All is bad? Doom and gloom?

Joburg is alive. This forum is dead. Go to blogs like 2summers.net and storyofbing.com if you need to attack some other positive people (who are expats by the way). My one friend is from Russia, living in Brixton now, working in Newtown. She loves the city. I have many Norwegian friends. Guess what, they LOVE it. Granted, my one friend from Norway hates the Northern suburbs (but what rational human being can love Fourways and Sunninghill).

Tired of this crap. Tired of the moaning. If you are looking for me, I am on a photowalk in the CBD, Hillbrow, Diepsloot, Diepkloof, Orlando, Melville, Alex or any other place that seems interesting. Because this forum is certainly not interesting, rational, engaging or objective.

[Inertia]

Originally Posted by Lydon

But surely if you're hoping to achieve some sort of balance you should contribute towards that balance? I think people have been getting annoyed because, apart from the odd mildly positive comment on a development or a sports result, you've posted little that hasn't been overly negative.

However, I disagree with you on your second paragraph. What exactly has happened that's suddenly put us in such a bad place? What is worse that it trumps the crap we've had to deal with over the past year or two? The likes of Julius have been dealt with, there are massive rifts within the ruling party and between it and its alliance partners, the recession is over - however slow the recovery may be, we have massive infrastructural investments on the horizon coming off the back of a national budget that received largely positive review, crime is dropping steadily but surely...I could go on.

Like I said - I'm at a complete loss as to what is so bad all of a sudden? Sure, some other fool is likely to rise in Julius' place, but you do realise that's likely to create even more of a split in the ruling party, right? Something that can only mean growth for the opposition.

I think I just find it funny, because I haven't felt this positive about our future since the World Cup.

Are you kidding? I practically spearheaded the Gautrain on these forums, defended it to its death - I even became an official public representative (representing THIS forum) for the Gautrain. I took a ride on the Rea Vaya from Ellis Park all the way to Thokoza for the sake of the forum. Let's not talk about chilling at Neighbourgoods on the weekend. Every single high rise and high density development in SA has been positively commented on by me. I'm sorry if there just aren't that many developments happening right now to post positively about. I recently had a long conversation over PM with a forum member travelling to Joburg telling him how not to be afraid to visit Joburg and what can be done to see here:

Hi ******

In short, no. If you stay away from the CBD and suburbs then you might as well not visit Joburg. Joburg is a dangerous city, as is San Francisco and New York.

If you remain street smart and don't do anything stupid, you should be fine! I've lived in Joburg for 22 years and have yet experienced anything serious.

Soccer City is technically in Soweto but it is outside the city proper. I'm not sure if the stadium has tours or not. I'm sure you can find this out on the net. Otherwise you can drive there and have a walk around, as many of my friends have done. Orlando Stadium is in a very vibrant area of Soweto. You can catch the Rea Vaya busses to the stadium - there is a station right outside:

This is if you don't mind travelling with the working class of Soweto, which is by all means safe - I have done it before. Orlando Stadium is located on a street with many bars, restaurants and hotels. Soccer City is basically in the middle of no where and doesn't have much around it, so i wouldn't technically call it a 'bad area'.

Hope that answers some of your questions

I would like to tell you to read the Sunday Times where the head of WBHO was interviewed where he said he seriously wonders if the government's promise this time of infrastructure will be like the last promise - empty with no fruition and leaving the construction industry on the brink of collapse. But I might be called a "news24 troll" and scare more forumers away (sorry Jakes).

Ok. Closing arguments from everyone and then let's move on.

[Lydon]

Originally Posted by Inertia

Are you kidding? I practically spearheaded the Gautrain on these forums, defended it to its death - I even became an official public representative (representing THIS forum) for the Gautrain. I took a ride on the Rea Vaya from Ellis Park all the way to Thokoza for the sake of the forum. Let's not talk about chilling at Neighbourgoods on the weekend. Every single high rise and high density development in SA has been positively commented on by me. I'm sorry if there just aren't that many developments happening right now to post positively about.

I would like to tell you to read the Sunday Times where the head of WBHO was interviewed where he said he seriously wonders if the government's promise this time of infrastructure will be like the last promise - empty with no fruition and leaving the construction industry on the brink of collapse. But I might be called a "news24 troll" and scare more forumers away (sorry Jakes).

Ok. Closing arguments from everyone and then let's move on.

I was referring to the notable increase lately, as opposed to the past.

But yes, clearly we all need to agree to disagree.

[waltjie]

Originally Posted by Inertia

Ok. Closing arguments from everyone and then let's move on.

Thank you Inertia.

My 'closing' argument then, is this... I'm certainly not saying that Johannesburg is 'unique' as a city with problems, not at all, but it IS a shithole. Walking from Newtown up Main Street to the Carlton Centre and back taking pictures without getting mugged is not a miracle... FFS it is our RIGHT! But please, don't pretend that being able to do that makes Johannesburg a safe place and come with bullsh&t about it having turned itself around. Go walk around in Bertrams, Berea, Yeoville, Hillbrow... go at night-time whilst you're at it and THEN come back and report on how fantastic it is. I couldn't care less about a place like Neighbourhood Market or whatever it is called... The only reason why it is 'working' is because it is the "in" thing to do. For heaven's sake, it is a bloody tourist attraction, and I am sure that half the people who go there from the north say a silent Thank You when they make it out alive afterwards. So there are foreigners who think the city is great... Good for them. You know what, in downtown Joburg there are 100's of 1000's of them, although they are illegal foreigners. The problems are endless and getting worse by the day. So the city makes an effort to sort out their financial issues, and everyone goes "hooray" like it's a major achievement... No! They weren't supposed to f_ck it up in the first place! You don't deserve praise for fixing your own mess at someone else's expense, you deserve praise for making something better than it was in the first place. If you cover a heap of crap with paint, it's just a painted heap of crap. Nothing more. So you install some arty street furniture on the pavements, you put up some mural of mosaic, you install fairy lights to make some tree light up at night, you do whatever... it doesn't solve any of the underlying problems. We all know what the major problem(s) is/are in the country, but nobody dare say it out loud. "World Class City" my ass... R30bn spent on the Gautrain and it fails... Why? Because nobody suspected that it's Achilles Heel ie the bus drivers will bring it to it's knees. Fabulous airport... but baggage gets stolen and broken into for almost a decade already... Why? Because you cannot trust a freaking baggage handler to do his job. SAA has won the award again of Best African Airline... whoo hoo! Hallo! They are again asking for a R6bn bail-out... The list goes on and on and on...

One step forward for every ten steps back is just not good enough, and building any amount of glass-clad towers in Sandton ain't gonna change a damn thing...

And this doesn't just apply to Johannesburg. It goes for every city in this country.

Go to Youtube and watch the series called "Stayin' Alive in Joburg" - it's a 6 episode documentary made by a resident from Joburg and shows you the REAL Johannesburg.

...So, on to the 'positive' developments now... I hear the Constitutional Court is under threat...

[Diggerdog]

Joburg should never have got in this mess in the first place, Waltjie, I agree. I saw the article on how they were supposedly getting the finances back in order, but didn't post it because they didn't deserve it...BUT, we hope it shows that they are on their way back up.
It doesn't mean all us 'positive' formers think that everything is just dandy in Joburg now!

And it's more like every bad news story spells widespread doom and gloom or even the end of the country.

Inertia started this 'discussion' up with some ridiculous comments, including that he thinks the 'sensible' thing to do is for all skilled people to leave the country! Now, really, that is just an outright dumbass comment - and he then said he stood by it.
And now he is telling us all to put in our 'closing arguments'!

I am with Lydon in that I feel more positive right now (as in the last 3-4 months) - there are a lot of positives.
A few months ago, the end was nigh because Malema was running around with racist comments and calling for nationalization - remember?
It was all ANYONE could talk about, our biggest challenge by a mile!

And now? Well, now he has been roundly condemned, stood down, disciplined and embarrassed - he is off the news wires, and nationalization is off the table.
Surely you must agree that that, for example, is good news!

And saying the Gautrain has 'failed' is again going over the top! It has the seepage problem which I think has been its major setback in this period, because it is running at less than half it's potential. And the bus links and other transport links were never there to start with, and always going to be a difficult proposition with the taxi industry etc.

And whilst it is struggling right now - I am certain that when they finally complete the friggin line, and the tolls come in, and the system beds down, it will be a success of note.

[LADEN]

What happened to Pule, Kulani and african biohazard? These people always made the joburg section interesting.

[Inertia]

Well Diggerdog if it was such an insensible thing to do I wonder why such a huge number of people did it - some may even say the majority of the skilled population has already left... It might be dumb to you but honestly your opinion doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of things - people have their reasons and I can guarantee you some of the most intelligent and productive people I know decided to make a move, but I'm sure they're just dumbass billionaires taking their money elsewhere.

Anyway thanks for the discussions guys, most interesting the forum's been in a while

LADEN, they probably emigrated <-- that's a joke, don't leave the forum guys

[Jakes1]

I hang my head in shame. This forum has gone to the dogs. Waltjie, what can I say... Eish man. Eish. Im off.

[Diggerdog]

Originally Posted by Inertia

Well Diggerdog if it was such an insensible thing to do I wonder why such a huge number of people did it - some may even say the majority of the skilled population has already left... It might be dumb to you but honestly your opinion doesn't mean much in the grander scheme of things - people have their reasons and I can guarantee you some of the most intelligent and productive people I know decided to make a move, but I'm sure they're just dumbass billionaires taking their money elsewhere.

Anyway thanks for the discussions guys, most interesting the forum's been in a while

LADEN, they probably emigrated <-- that's a joke, don't leave the forum guys

I said YOUR comment was dumb - and it is and was, which is why you have been trying to qualify it!
We know the history Inertia, we know people with skills left, we a
know people with skills have been returning in the last 3 years.

You said the sensible thing to do would be to leave the country - and not just you, but ALL skilled people!

This forum is mostly about developments, construction, tall buildings, shiny trains and new shopping centers, and the rest.
So advocating everyone leave the freakin country is a bit ridiculous.

Let's see what happens in the coming year - if the Gautrain comes right and Joburg recovers, if unemployment comes down and crime decreases.
I feel strongly that this will occur, you think directly the opposite.

Well, you are right in one thing, this discussion appears over.

[Pule]

The problem with this forum is that negative topics receive much attention than what SSC is intended for and I dont have time to entertain such. Any of you Joburgers who mushroom only for such topics ever seen this thread, http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...1154611&page=6

There are more interesting developments taking place in Sandton which can be entertained when all contributes the way they supposed to and leave politics to those that know them best.