Melbourne Public Transport (Part II) - Page 141

Planks & Sticks · February 28th, 2012, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aussie Steve

You are right, there is space for a 4th track between Camberwell and Hawthorn, and there is room between Hawthorn and the Yarra River, it will just mean relaying some of the tracks west of Hawthorn, but there is space, provided for when this line was relayed some 100 years ago. Forward planning is the key. As for Canterbury, it is tight, but possible.

Why not just have a double deck in the tight sections such as Canterbury and Mont Albert with stations on the lower levels or would the cost make it nonviable?

(Ignoring the noise that the NIMBYs would make in this case)

MelbourneCity · February 28th, 2012, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Planks & Sticks

Why not just have a double deck in the tight sections such as Canterbury and Mont Albert with stations on the lower levels or would the cost make it nonviable?

(Ignoring the noise that the NIMBYs would make in this case)

They could just lay the fourth track in place of most of the third platforms - they'll essentially be redundant if a true two tier timetable is implemented. Canterbury would be the most difficult, and I suspect East Camberwell as the shelter on Platform 3 is possibly heritage listed (can anyone confirm?).

They only station that COULD warrant 4 platforms is Surrey Hills. The PM services which currently run express Richmond to Surrey Hills discharge a huge ammount each evening - I reckon close to half the load.

jonas jade · February 29th, 2012, 12:16 AM

The Auditor-General's report into Public Transport performance has been released today:

http://www.audit.vic.gov.au/reports_...transport.aspx

Quote:

Public Transport Performance

Tabled: 29 FEBRUARY 2012
This audit examined the performance of public bus, tram and train services across Victoria.

The Department of Transport was not prepared for the rapid growth in public transport patronage between 2004 and 2009. It did not have the capability to foresee this growth or fully understand the root causes of poor performance. It was therefore unable to effectively deal with the performance pressures.

Satisfaction for all public transport modes has deteriorated over the past decade, and performance has mostly fallen short of government targets in the past five years. The decline was greatest for metropolitan trains.

The response to this decline was partial and uncoordinated. Over this time the department managed public transport as separate modes of travel rather than as an integrated system.

From 2008 the department started to turn this stiuation around. It now has a good understanding of performance issues and has developed an effective planning framework. This is a good basis for action but there is more to do.

We identified:
outstanding weaknesses in how performance is measured and reported objectives in the Transport Integration Act that are not measured or managed
partial application of the department’s improved planning approach
a need to better incorporate performance outcomes into planning.

The future challenges are significant. We estimate that capital expenditure on public transport will have to triple over the next decade to cope with the expected growth. The department needs to benchmark the costs of operating public transport and devise a long-term plan to improve efficiency.

Report on the audit results from ABC:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-2...nsport/3859528

Quote:

It found spending on public transport will need to increase from $1 billion a year to $3 billion a year over the next decade, with the majority of the money to be spent on the metropolitan railway system.

John_Proctor · February 29th, 2012, 01:55 AM

those figures would be Capex becuase the current expenditure on opex is about $2 billion per year between trains (about $800 million alone) trams and buses

jonas jade · February 29th, 2012, 02:09 AM

Yeah it is.

I've only had a brief look thourhg the report so far, but here's the bit from the report on expenditure.

Quote:

3.4.2 Estimated cost of addressing future challenges
For public transport to cope with expected passenger growth and play its full role in contributing to the state’s prosperity and liveability a substantial and sustained increase in investment is required.

The department’s public transport strategy estimates that investment in new infrastructure and vehicles needed to cope with growth, and expand the role of public transport over the next 10 years is in the order of $30 billion. This represents a tripling of the average capital spending on public transport from $1 billion to $3 billion per year.

Two-thirds of this investment is required to transform the metropolitan railway into a system that can effectively move far more passengers.

While these costs were developed to inform an earlier state wide transport plan, they still reflect the scale of expenditure needed to accommodate projected public transport growth without diminishing performance.

John_Proctor · February 29th, 2012, 04:36 AM

what do you get for $30 billion?

$4 billion RRL
$6 billion Melbourne Metro
$2 billion upgrade signalling whole network
$2 billion ongoing maintenance and upgrades (eg. concrete sleepers) (based on $200 million per year included in Metro contract)
$3.5 billion new trains (more trains+replace Comeng+new stabling and maintenance - based on $222 million for 7 new trains announced May 2011, therefore 33 new trains and 80 replacement comeng = 113 new trains total @ ~$30 million per train)
$2 billion - Dandenong corridor (mix of grade seps and quadding)
$2 billion - assorted other grade seps and stuff
$2 billion - Flinders Street, Richmond (and others?) station upgrades/refits/modernisations
$2 billion - Melton
$500 mill - Hurstbridge line single track duplication
$500 mill - Cranbourne East extension and duplication

as I count it that gets $26.5 billion of some very fat estimates for the heavy rail network.

I suppose I should have had $1-2 billion or something for upgrading the tram network (more platform stops, more priority, more trams).

maybe with more accurate estimates you'd get that list down to $20 billion and have a spare $10 billion to build an airport rail link and Rowville...

also I didn't include any regional rail upgrades (like more passing loops on Bendigo/Ballarat lines).

jonas jade · February 29th, 2012, 04:39 AM

Only $20 bil is recommended for heavy rail upgrades the other $10b is for trams/buses.

Quote:

Two-thirds of this investment is required to transform the metropolitan railway into a system that can effectively move far more passengers.

I think these are broadstroke estimates though and they say its based off previously released Metro plans.

They also say there should be network development plans as detailed as the ones for heavy rail under way for trams and buses.

John_Proctor · February 29th, 2012, 06:01 AM

well like I said you could probably get to $20 billion by just making my estimates slightly less fat.

$10 billion is an absolute truckload to be spending on trams and buses. hard to see the value you could get out of that sort of expenditure unless you are turning tram into light rail and bus into busway?

NoshowwithoutPunch · February 29th, 2012, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_Proctor

well like I said you could probably get to $20 billion by just making my estimates slightly less fat.

$10 billion is an absolute truckload to be spending on trams and buses. hard to see the value you could get out of that sort of expenditure unless you are turning tram into light rail and bus into busway?

Depends what they mean by trams. As you suggest, if you convert the worst routes to LR, fill all the stupid gaps in the system eg 3 to chaddie or the park sat connector and do dda on the lot, a fair bit of money. Not sure if 10 bill though.

Planks & Sticks · March 1st, 2012, 12:11 PM

Would love to see plans to put tram lines under the busiest (and the most congested) sections of the network, turning them into proper light rail stations like in Rouen, France.

I think it is something that should be considered like the freeway plan that was designed in the 1960s with progressive steps, only this time for light rail.

EDIT: Obviously it would have to be done in conjunction with the railway network plan and urban densification plan, but I am certain it could be a powerful way to fill in the gaps between the railway lines.

Gazza2 · March 1st, 2012, 12:25 PM

Quote:

$500 mill - Hurstbridge line single track duplication

Does that need to happen in the next decade though?

cjb287 · March 1st, 2012, 12:41 PM

The Rosanna - Heidelberg section I'd say yes absolutely if they want to introduce effective 2 tier services. It's certainly not at the top of the list but it's certainly worthy for attention within the next 10 years. Preliminary design options for the duplication have been prepared apparently.

L2 · March 1st, 2012, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjb287

The Rosanna - Heidelberg section I'd say yes absolutely if they want to introduce effective 2 tier services. It's certainly not at the top of the list but it's certainly worthy for attention within the next 10 years. Preliminary design options for the duplication have been prepared apparently.

Uhhh, there's no need for trains running express Greensborough to Jolimont 7 days a week, or at any time really

Anyway I wonder if delays could be mitigated if they just duplicated a little bit to either end of the tunnel rather than through the tunnel itself, but I have explored the area on foot and interestingly there's no housing above the tunnel itself - just the middle of a road and someone's backyard.

It's not an impossible project.

cjb287 · March 1st, 2012, 01:45 PM

I was more referring to the future timetable changes yet to be applied on the Clifton Hill Group. I've read elsewhere (Vicsig I think) that the idea is to have more short starters from Macleod.

Also, if you were going to spend money here you may as well do it properly instead of just delaying the real solution for a bit longer.

You're right about the tunnel not being that much of a challenge. The corridor is wide enough and the nearby road bridge appears to have adequate space for an additional track underneath too. I think Burgundy St and the approach along the high embankment will prove more challenging. A huge retaining wall would be needed or something

Dandenong quading and more grade seps etc are clearly higher on the agenda of course

John_Proctor · March 2nd, 2012, 12:42 AM

yes and no

The thing that is stopping the Dandenong corridor from running more trains is the level crossings and from teh newspaper reports about 9 car trains it seems there are other solutions before Quadding for the Dandenong corridor.

the single track section is GOING to be a pretty big limitation on the operation of Hurstbridge and Epping lines soon. its the next cab of the rank on making that group work better (after Merri duplication and works assocaited with South Morang extension like signal upgrades and Keon Park-Epping duplication).

cjb287 · March 6th, 2012, 01:03 PM

New timetable due April 22nd.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/latest/.../?cmp=facebook

Frankston, Ringwood and Dandenong will now see a 10 minute frequency on weekends. Hurstbridge will get a couple of extra peak hour services and probably some adjustments to running times across the board. I'd also imagine this will take advantage of the recent duplication to Epping.

jarf · March 6th, 2012, 01:18 PM

The extension to South Morang is also opening that day, along with Lynbrook and Cardinia Road stations.

L2 · March 6th, 2012, 01:45 PM

More details here:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...-1226291124349

One change of note (7 days) is the Hurstbridge line is losing the Jolimont - Clifton Hill off-peak/weekend express pattern. Benefit is 10min frequency in that section to North Rich, Collingwood etc.

Loss is another 4mins to every trip for those traveling beyond Victoria Park. Does seem worthwhile improving the frequency to that section given it's close proximity to the CBD although the area is saturated with SmartBus routes and trams that also go to the CBD.

On another line I'm pleased that the palace will now be serviced every 10 minutes on weekends although it's only served every 15 on weekdays at the moment

NoshowwithoutPunch · March 6th, 2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L2

More details here:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...-1226291124349

One change of note (7 days) is the Hurstbridge line is losing the Jolimont - Clifton Hill off-peak/weekend express pattern. Benefit is 10min frequency in that section to North Rich, Collingwood etc.

Loss is another 4mins to every trip for those traveling beyond Victoria Park. Does seem worthwhile improving the frequency to that section given it's close proximity to the CBD although the area is saturated with SmartBus routes and trams that also go to the CBD.

On another line I'm pleased that the palace will now be serviced every 10 minutes on weekends although it's only served every 15 on weekdays at the moment

Yep congrats metro, very important to reach tuag and avoid bus connection problems. It wont matter if bus on 20 min headways or 30 min

John_Proctor · March 7th, 2012, 12:08 AM

^ yep that has been a focus of modal coordination for DOT - no point trying to make 1000's of timetables meet each other to the minute at interchanges, easier to just run the trains every 10 minutes and not have to worry about it.

very happy with teh Clifton Hill-Jolimont change... moving to Collingwood soon near Vic Park station so that'll be handy!

only 2 extra peak trains across the whole network is a bit dissapointing IMO? (althoguh from the patronage figures realeased about a month ago patronage levelled off in the second half of last year so probably less of an issue than when we were in 10% growth per year)

March 6th, 2012, 01:18 PM	#2817
jarf Insane Gunzel Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Bus Stop 9422 Posts: 994 Likes (Received): 54	The extension to South Morang is also opening that day, along with Lynbrook and Cardinia Road stations. __________________ Random Gunzel Insanity

March 6th, 2012, 01:45 PM	#2818
L2 Needs an avatar Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Western Melbourne Posts: 4,291 Likes (Received): 19	More details here: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...-1226291124349 One change of note (7 days) is the Hurstbridge line is losing the Jolimont - Clifton Hill off-peak/weekend express pattern. Benefit is 10min frequency in that section to North Rich, Collingwood etc. Loss is another 4mins to every trip for those traveling beyond Victoria Park. Does seem worthwhile improving the frequency to that section given it's close proximity to the CBD although the area is saturated with SmartBus routes and trams that also go to the CBD. On another line I'm pleased that the palace will now be serviced every 10 minutes on weekends although it's only served every 15 on weekdays at the moment __________________ ""Being a bogan is not a bad thing. We don't follow other people's lead, we do our own thing." - Mother of Cassie van den Dungen

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February 29th, 2012, 01:55 AM	#2804
John_Proctor Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 5,913 Likes (Received): 96	those figures would be Capex becuase the current expenditure on opex is about $2 billion per year between trains (about $800 million alone) trams and buses

February 29th, 2012, 04:36 AM	#2806
John_Proctor Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 5,913 Likes (Received): 96	what do you get for $30 billion? $4 billion RRL $6 billion Melbourne Metro $2 billion upgrade signalling whole network $2 billion ongoing maintenance and upgrades (eg. concrete sleepers) (based on $200 million per year included in Metro contract) $3.5 billion new trains (more trains+replace Comeng+new stabling and maintenance - based on $222 million for 7 new trains announced May 2011, therefore 33 new trains and 80 replacement comeng = 113 new trains total @ ~$30 million per train) $2 billion - Dandenong corridor (mix of grade seps and quadding) $2 billion - assorted other grade seps and stuff $2 billion - Flinders Street, Richmond (and others?) station upgrades/refits/modernisations $2 billion - Melton $500 mill - Hurstbridge line single track duplication $500 mill - Cranbourne East extension and duplication as I count it that gets $26.5 billion of some very fat estimates for the heavy rail network. I suppose I should have had $1-2 billion or something for upgrading the tram network (more platform stops, more priority, more trams). maybe with more accurate estimates you'd get that list down to $20 billion and have a spare $10 billion to build an airport rail link and Rowville... also I didn't include any regional rail upgrades (like more passing loops on Bendigo/Ballarat lines).

February 29th, 2012, 06:01 AM	#2808
John_Proctor Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 5,913 Likes (Received): 96	well like I said you could probably get to $20 billion by just making my estimates slightly less fat. $10 billion is an absolute truckload to be spending on trams and buses. hard to see the value you could get out of that sort of expenditure unless you are turning tram into light rail and bus into busway?

March 1st, 2012, 12:11 PM	#2810
Planks & Sticks Rabid Furry Skier Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mulbuhn Posts: 1,324 Likes (Received): 31	Would love to see plans to put tram lines under the busiest (and the most congested) sections of the network, turning them into proper light rail stations like in Rouen, France. I think it is something that should be considered like the freeway plan that was designed in the 1960s with progressive steps, only this time for light rail. EDIT: Obviously it would have to be done in conjunction with the railway network plan and urban densification plan, but I am certain it could be a powerful way to fill in the gaps between the railway lines.

March 1st, 2012, 12:41 PM	#2812
cjb287 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,004 Likes (Received): 5	The Rosanna - Heidelberg section I'd say yes absolutely if they want to introduce effective 2 tier services. It's certainly not at the top of the list but it's certainly worthy for attention within the next 10 years. Preliminary design options for the duplication have been prepared apparently.

March 1st, 2012, 01:45 PM	#2814
cjb287 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,004 Likes (Received): 5	I was more referring to the future timetable changes yet to be applied on the Clifton Hill Group. I've read elsewhere (Vicsig I think) that the idea is to have more short starters from Macleod. Also, if you were going to spend money here you may as well do it properly instead of just delaying the real solution for a bit longer. You're right about the tunnel not being that much of a challenge. The corridor is wide enough and the nearby road bridge appears to have adequate space for an additional track underneath too. I think Burgundy St and the approach along the high embankment will prove more challenging. A huge retaining wall would be needed or something Dandenong quading and more grade seps etc are clearly higher on the agenda of course

March 2nd, 2012, 12:42 AM	#2815
John_Proctor Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 5,913 Likes (Received): 96	yes and no The thing that is stopping the Dandenong corridor from running more trains is the level crossings and from teh newspaper reports about 9 car trains it seems there are other solutions before Quadding for the Dandenong corridor. the single track section is GOING to be a pretty big limitation on the operation of Hurstbridge and Epping lines soon. its the next cab of the rank on making that group work better (after Merri duplication and works assocaited with South Morang extension like signal upgrades and Keon Park-Epping duplication).

March 6th, 2012, 01:03 PM	#2816
cjb287 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,004 Likes (Received): 5	New timetable due April 22nd. http://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/latest/.../?cmp=facebook Frankston, Ringwood and Dandenong will now see a 10 minute frequency on weekends. Hurstbridge will get a couple of extra peak hour services and probably some adjustments to running times across the board. I'd also imagine this will take advantage of the recent duplication to Epping.

March 7th, 2012, 12:08 AM	#2820
John_Proctor Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Melbourne Posts: 5,913 Likes (Received): 96	^ yep that has been a focus of modal coordination for DOT - no point trying to make 1000's of timetables meet each other to the minute at interchanges, easier to just run the trains every 10 minutes and not have to worry about it. very happy with teh Clifton Hill-Jolimont change... moving to Collingwood soon near Vic Park station so that'll be handy! only 2 extra peak trains across the whole network is a bit dissapointing IMO? (althoguh from the patronage figures realeased about a month ago patronage levelled off in the second half of last year so probably less of an issue than when we were in 10% growth per year)