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Old February 28th, 2012, 09:04 AM   #161
Christian347
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Originally Posted by Bannor View Post
The polish population is declining primarily because of emigration to western europe like scandinavia, germany, britain and the benelux. They have a hard time holding onto their skilled workers. Like former east germany has. However, the gdp per person in Poland is growing rapidly.

Swedens population is the fastest growing in Europe, and the fastest growing economy too, so a young population with some good companies can't be that bad. I know Paris is large, but I thought we were talking about growth rates here. Some of which are low in western europe (britain, ireland, belgium, spain, portugal, italy etc). The ones holding up former west europe are the countries furthest to the east, like scandinavia, germany, austria and switzerland. And some former east bloc countries have solid growth rates. Then there is Russia too...
Sweden's population certaintly isn't the fastest growing country in Europe. Population growth in Norway is about the same in real numbers despite having just over half the population, so it´s much higher in %.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 09:49 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannor
I know Paris is large, but I thought we were talking about growth rates here. Some of which are low in western europe (britain, ireland, belgium, spain, portugal, italy etc). The ones holding up former west europe are the countries furthest to the east, like scandinavia, germany, austria and switzerland.
A major structural change like 'shifting the focus of the European economy to the Baltic' would take decades of such growth trends, you can't just extrapolate current growth rates forward for such a long period, these things are cyclical.

You could have said in 2005 that the focus of the European economy was shifting to the Eurozone periphery, Spain, Greece, Ireland based on the growth rates back then but it didn't quite work out like that.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 10:17 AM   #163
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, you can't just extrapolate current growth rates forward for such a long period, these things are cyclical.
Then I'll base it on work ethics and current lower employment expenses in east europe. Especially Poland, but also the Baltics and Russia.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 10:19 AM   #164
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What is the difference in work ethics?
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Old February 28th, 2012, 10:24 AM   #165
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What is the difference in work ethics?
Harder workers, less breaks. On time etc. There is no hiding that the polish and baltics have a very good reputation for that in europe. Much more so than other west europeans perhaps except swedes and germans.

Thats the general idea in Norway though, and there are alot of foreign workers here from all over europe. Hard manual labour.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 10:25 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by hmueller2 View Post
a "german" for example is just someone who is holding a german citizenship. nothing more.
but it has nothing to do with values, mentality, traditions and so one.
I am not sur i understand what you mean....So being German has nothing to do with mentality and values? Are you serious?

Each country of the world has different mentalities and values of course! Even inside a country there can be big differences, for example beetween northern and southern Italy. In Germany for example there are more differences beetween northern and southern Germans than beetween southern Germans and Swiss / Austria in mentality and values. And that has nothing to do with a comparaison such as "this part is better than anoter". It's just the way it is in the reality. Sorry.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 10:41 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannor

Harder workers, less breaks. On time etc. There is no hiding that the polish and baltics have a very good reputation for that in europe. Much more so than other west europeans perhaps except swedes and germans.

Thats the general idea in Norway though, and there are alot of foreign workers here from all over europe. Hard manual labour.
That, if true, isn't some inbuilt genetic trait, just a product of the circumstances people find themselves in, there is no guarantee that as economic circumstances change to being more comfortable for more people that won't change.....

I can't see the focus of the European economy shifting to an already lightly populated region with pretty awful demographics any time soon. Sure those regions will get richer, but they just don't have the weight of population to become dominant over other, much more populous regions.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 10:50 AM   #168
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Work ethics also means creativity, efficiency, independence, entrepreneurship, self-confidence, resourcefulness, willingness to innovate and courage to take risks.
Reducing everything to the propensity for manual labor is very simplistic. Ask yourself why Chiapas or inland China are not some of the richest and most productive regions in the world, and why central London or Frankfurt are not some of the poorest.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 11:00 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Federicoft View Post
Work ethics also means creativity, efficiency, independence, entrepreneurship, self-confidence, willingness to take risks.
Reducing everything to the propensity for manual labor is very simplistic. Ask yourself why Chiapas or inland China are not some of the richest and most productive regions in the world, and why central London or Frankfurt are not some of the poorest.
Most of the things you point to has to do with the education system though, and the society. And eastern europe has had alot to catch up to in that regard the past 20 years. But are you saying these things can't change? mentioning two banking hubs seems off topic though. Britain aint the most innovative country out there either.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 11:07 AM   #170
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As a demonstration of the demographic situation, much of the Baltic region and East Germany has some of the most dramatic population decline in the whole of Europe, and with very low fertility rates that is unlikely to change significantly in the near future.

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Old February 28th, 2012, 11:09 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannor

Most of the things you point to has to do with the education system though, and the society. And eastern europe has had alot to catch up to in that regard the past 20 years. But are you saying these things can't change? mentioning two banking hubs seems off topic though. Britain aint the most innovative country out there either.
But far from the least innovative too....
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Old February 28th, 2012, 11:12 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannor View Post
Most of the things you point to has to do with the education system though, and the society. And eastern europe has had alot to catch up to in that regard the past 20 years. But are you saying these things can't change? mentioning two banking hubs seems off topic though. Britain aint the most innovative country out there either.
Perhaps no, still far more innovative than any Eastern European country.
Things could change as much as they can stay as they are, I'm not the one trying to predict the future here. As we are speaking, it is yet to be proven they will change. EE has enjoyed democracy and market economy for more than twenty years, it has made huge progress but the difference with Western Europe remains large. West Germany completely recovered from WWII in about a decade, and by the late 50s was already one of the most powerful economies in the world.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 12:38 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Bannor View Post
Swedens population is the fastest growing in Europe
Here is the average population growth rate since the start of the economic crisis for a few countries.

Population growth rate from Jan. 2008 to Jan. 2012:
- Luxembourg: +1.90% per year
- Norway: +1.29% per year
- Sweden: +0.81% per year
- Metropolitan France: +0.53% per year

In terms of absolute growth, of course, Sweden's growth is not very impressive, due to the limited size of its population.

Absolute growth rate from Jan. 2008 to Jan. 2012:
- Metropolitan France: +1,325,902 people
- Sweden: +299,928 people
- Norway: +248,729 people
- Luxembourg: +37,388 people

So in 4 years, Sweden added less people to its population than Metropolitan France in just one year. Not to mention the fact that during these 4 years, the states bordering the Baltic had a total population loss (growth in Denmark, Sweden, and Finland was more than offset by losses in Germany, Poland, and the Baltic States). So how could the center of gravity move towards the Baltic??
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Old February 28th, 2012, 02:42 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Metro007 View Post
I am not sur i understand what you mean....So being German has nothing to do with mentality and values? Are you serious?
of course!
i am a german citizen, angela merkel is a german citizen, boris becker is a german citizen, many millions are german citizens as well.
but i am quite sure that "we" all don't share the same values and menatlity.
i am even very different from my parents.

Quote:
Each country of the world has different mentalities and values of course! Even inside a country there can be big differences, for example beetween northern and southern Italy.
even when this hypothesis would be right (which isn't imo), it is very illogical, cause mentalities and values don't have borders. they tend to be very asymmetric. you could f.e. grow up in a very hard working family and your parents could have these "work ethics" , but nevertheless you could end up being a lazy person. still today science doesn't know what influences people and in which proportion (genetics,setting, education etc)
and eeeeven if they would have borders, this theory is illogical as well, cause borders changed so dramatically in europe in the last centuries.

Quote:
In Germany for example there are more differences beetween northern and southern Germans than beetween southern Germans and Swiss / Austria in mentality and values.
right, i never denied this. there are differences in terms of economy, culture, dialects etc.
i don't think you get my point. i am not saying that there are no differences in terms of mentalities etc. but these differences are very asymmetric, various, infinite, discombobulated and haphazard.
i just have a bad feeling about generalization and prejudice.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 02:49 PM   #175
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These always devolve into endless City vs City/Country vs Country affairs.
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