House of Terror - existing tensions?

[sxp935]

Hi,
I was hoping people could help me; I’m trying to do a dissertation study looking at tensions relating to memorials, museums and generally the commodification of communism in Budapest.
Was thinking of focusing my research on the ‘House of Terror’. Does anyone know of any tensions or existing debates about the existence of this exhibition to communism? Possibly between those who lived through it and younger generations less affected?

Or are there any other similar situations that have caused debate in Budapest? Possibly ‘Statue Park’?

Thanks for your time, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
Sam

[Sieg]

Originally Posted by sxp935

Hi,
I was hoping people could help me; I’m trying to do a dissertation study looking at tensions relating to memorials, museums and generally the commodification of communism in Budapest.
Was thinking of focusing my research on the ‘House of Terror’. Does anyone know of any tensions or existing debates about the existence of this exhibition to communism? Possibly between those who lived through it and younger generations less affected?

Or are there any other similar situations that have caused debate in Budapest? Possibly ‘Statue Park’?

Thanks for your time, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
Sam

I'm sure you expected a more detailed answer but I'm afraid I must say no, there are not really such tensions. Noone in Hungary would seriously try to exhonerate communism and debate the existence of such a museum (some political idiots like Gyula Thürmer and a few old guys from the commieblocks excluded).

However, you could certainly find more info about tensions about WW2 and Nazism/Holocaust memorials. I believe that the majority of the Hungarian population finds the hassle around the Holocaust grossly exaggerated and opposes the frequent memorials and museums, especially those blaming the Hungarian populace and Horthy's government for the Holocaust. In the Terror Háza there was an recent debate about reforming the Holocaust part, pretty much by these guidelines.

[Bikes]

600,000 "grossly exaggerated" Hungarian victims. Well said Sieg

[Mr.Mojo Risin]

Originally Posted by Sieg

I'm sure you expected a more detailed answer but I'm afraid I must say no, there are not really such tensions. Noone in Hungary would seriously try to exhonerate communism and debate the existence of such a museum (some political idiots like Gyula Thürmer and a few old guys from the commieblocks excluded).

However, you could certainly find more info about tensions about WW2 and Nazism/Holocaust memorials. I believe that the majority of the Hungarian population finds the hassle around the Holocaust grossly exaggerated and opposes the frequent memorials and museums, especially those blaming the Hungarian populace and Horthy's government for the Holocaust. In the Terror Háza there was an recent debate about reforming the Holocaust part, pretty much by these guidelines.

Nagyon nem a jó német vonalat vetted fel. Szerintem minden jó érzésű német, magyar és német-magyar elutasítja ezt a nézetet. Pl. hogy ne csak, a szerinted eltúlzott nagy számok legyenek: Richter Gedeon megteremti a magyar ipari gyógyszerészetet, több ezer munkahellyel a melyek a mai napig fennállnak, viszi a jó hírét a világba az országnak. És a jutalma az volt, hogy a dunába lőtték a nyilasok. Ez csak egy csepp a tengerben, és hány ilyen értékes Magyarország sikeréhez hozzájáruló embert öltek akkor meg. És nem beszélve azokról a zsenikről akik még szerencsésen külföldre emigráltak. Szerinted ez nem épp elég csapás arra, hogy szomorkodjunk, sopánkodjunk?! És persze az összes többiért is kár (és ez nem a jó szó rá tudom), csak érzékeltetés képen, hogy megértsd, itt nem csak egy bizonyos származású emberek számára volt tragédia, ez minden magyaré is. Ezért nem értek sok embert amikor ezt úgy kezeli, hogy ez csak a zsidók baja, foglalkozzanak ezzel ők.
Szégyen ez 2011-ben...
Nekem is német felmenőim vannak és ezzel a hozzáállással pont annyit érsz el, hogy az előítéleteket erősítsd ellenünk!

[blogen_]

This is the accurate numbers 1941-1989:

Hungarian casualties of wwII:
KIA: ~180 000
GULAG: ~250 000 --> causalties the Communism
civilian war losses: 45 000
murdered jews: ~450 000 (400k by Germans, 50k by Hungarians)
murdered gypsies: ~5000 (by Hungarians)

causalties of the Communism:
total murdered: ~320 000 (with GULAG)
total exiled to Hungary: ~207 000
total exiled from Hungary: ~550 000
total imprisoned and deported: ~350 000

political executions:
1945-1956: 2000
1956-1989: 350

political imprisoned:
1945-1956: ~300 000
1956-1989: ~35 000

deported to concentration camps 1947-1953: ~15 000

postwar ethnic cleasing:
total murdered: ~65 000
total exiled to Hungary: ~207 000

in Highland
murdered: ~500
exiled to Hungary: ~60 000

in Southland
murdered: ~25 000
exiled to Hungary: 32 000

in Rusinland
murdered: ~35 000
exiled to Hungary: 13 000

in Transsylvania
murdered: ~5000
exiled to Hungary: 102 000

exiled from Hungary:
Hungarians:
1945-1956: ~150 000
1956-1989: ~150 000
total Germans: ~210 000
Germans 1946-48: 185 000
Jews to Israel 1947-1989: 28 849
Jews without Aliyah 1947-1989: ~30-40 000

[Windblower]

Just read these earlier messages and You'll see the tensions among our citizens.

Historically it is not disputable that both terroristic systems (Nazi and Communist) had its victims in Hungary. It is contraversal to say about the Horthy-era that it was fully antidemocratic or terroristic. No, it was not or it was not completely. The Hungarian Socialdemocratic Party sent up to the 19th March 1944 elected members to the Hungarian Parliament, the greatest antiwar demonstration was organized in Budapest by them and the Independent Fieldworkers and Small Fieldholders (Agrarian) Party during the 2nd WW. In time paralel to this a great number of Hungarians turned into serving the German alliance, a Numerus Clausus was in power against the jews already from the 30's in many occupations and antisemitic propaganda and smaller pogroms became part of everyday's life. A Nationalsocialist Party (Arrowcross Party) was established and get in power after the german occupation of Hungary (19th March 1944). In this period deportations of jews (mainly from Northeastern-Hungary) were on daily schedule. Alltogether some 700 000 civilans has been deported and killed in KZ-camps, mostly in Auschwitz. (almost 200 000 Budapest jews survived due to the personal resistance of Horthy)

After the end of war and 4 years of partly peaceful and developing democracy the Hungarian Workers Party cheated the 1948 elections and built out its authoritian power, dismissing any other parties and the so called "class-enemies". The era between 1949 and 1953 was one of the darkest ages in the history of Hungary. Anybody could be deported without any warning. Some of the war criminals have been sentenced to death, others (the so called small arrow-cross nazis) have been integrated into the Communist Party as party-members and as torture leaders at the so called State Defence Authorities (Államvédelmi Hatóság, ÁVH).

The nowadays House of the Terror was the headquarter of both the House of Faith (Nazi organisation for torturing and killing the antiwar resistants and jews) up to January 1945 and of the ÁVH (1947-1957) - mostly with the same employees as at the end of war. Those guys had a lot of praxis how to torture anyone...

That is why this House of Terror is there where it is. You may see during your visit two barbarian systems in work in the same building.

[RawLee]

To answer the OP's question, neither the building itself, nor the commodification of those events causes disturbances. The events themselves, however, do stir up heated debates.

[Sieg]

Actually after 70 years I don't really care how many people died in any conflict, 1 million is just as horrible as 10 million, like Stalin said, beyond a certain number it's just statistics if we have no personal connection. I was born when even Communism was in its final days, I have absolutely no personal connection to WW2. And yes, therefore I don't want to be reminded every second day about the Holocaust, which BTW is a huge business opportunity to lots of already rich people. We had a debate about this with Bikes and as far as I remember I counted 5 or 6 Holocaust memorial days per year in Hungary. We have ONE for Trianon. Since last year. If want to remember tragedies let's remember them all but it's probably better not to found our identity or disasters and mass murder.

Honestly I don't care what stereotypes I reinforce or what others think in general. I just want to emphasize that according to our currently accepted political guidelines all people are equal, neither Germans or Hungarians nor Jews are better. Huge injustices were inflicted upon all three peoples in the past century (and many others, so is history), and the Holocaust is, yes, grossly overrepresented in memorials.

[Sieg]

Oh, and I see a poll has been put up. I think the question is not really understandable. What's "commodification"? What's "post-communist history"? 1989-2011? Maybe it would be a good idea to clarify this a little.

[Windblower]

Maybe a reason for this is that Holocaust was the very first industrially organized massacre. All earlier others were made by instinct without a master plan. By now there is a series of examples adopted from Red Khmers or

Anyhow i am pessimist. Not any generations did learn in the human history from the experiences of the eralier generations. Wars will come and i am not sure if there will be any winners or survivors.

[RawLee]

Originally Posted by Sieg

What's "commodification"?

Its like a bobblehead Stalin or the Trianon stickers. You know, making a commodity from something thats not a commodity.

[Bikes]

Sieg, and I told you, if you can compare territorial loss with massacre then it tells a lot. The cause of wars is always greed. If you combined the dreams of the nationalists in each country it would take 1000 times the size of earth to fulfill them. Probably most of these guys have problems with their own size.

[Sieg]

Originally Posted by Bikes

Sieg, and I told you, if you can compare territorial loss with massacre then it tells a lot. The cause of wars is always greed. If you combined the dreams of the nationalists in each country it would take 1000 times the size of earth to fulfill them. Probably most of these guys have problems with their own size.

Of course I do. In a historical perspective, territorial loss is far worse because the population can regenerate but Hungary will most certainly not grow back to let's say the Carpathians. The Jewish population recovered after the Holocaust, it helped them get a much-desired own country and international recognition, aid and support for decades, up to this day. I realize it seems heartless to talk about the deaths of millions as an event in a book, but in a historical perspective - and 70 years is most certainly a historical distance - it's hardly more than that. From this aspect, the Jewish people have won much more than they lost with the Holocaust. On the contrary, with Trianon the very cultural and economic foundation of Hungary was destroyed and its effect are palpable to this very day.
Personally I think Trianon was inevitable, the history of the 20th century was all about small peoples gaining independence and territorial disintegration. Many countries, all the traditional superpowers ended up as middle-level countries at best in the period between 1918 and let's say 1970, it was not just Hungary. The tragedy about Trianon is not the loss of the High Tatras, Croatia or Southern Transylvania, but the loss of traditionally Hungarian territories and the unacceptably irreasonable new borders. Had the 1938 Vienna Award remained in effect, with minor border corrections in the Vajdaság and around Szatmár/Bihar with Romania, combined with full Székely autonomy, we wouldn't be talking about Trianon at all. Actually this is what I still see as a solution, in 1940 maybe the division of Transylvania would have been justified too.

[Windblower]

If you put historic events in time series, does not mean, that those events have influence on eachother.

The Holocaust has not any connection to the existence of the todays Israel, at least not more than to the antisemitism. And has absolutely nothing comparable to the territorial losses of Hungary or any other country. Just think about the example of Austria. They lost much more territory then Hungary did. They lost 4 million Austrogermans. And now? Compared to Hungary they are financially an absolute successful country.

The "only" difference is 40 years of communism with its moral-distorting human experiments. That is what the Terror House may teach us. Territorial losses may be survived for healthy nations, moral losses never, because the lack of moral makes complete nations/generations ill.

Deporting and killing either Jews, Communists, "class-enemies" or anyone else is moral-distorting too. This is another lesson you may learn in the House of Terror.

[Sieg]

Originally Posted by Windblower

If you put historic events in time series, does not mean, that those events have influence on eachother.

The Holocaust has not any connection to the existence of the todays Israel, at least not more than to the antisemitism. And has absolutely nothing comparable to the territorial losses of Hungary or any other country. Just think about the example of Austria. They lost much more territory then Hungary did. They lost 4 million Austrogermans. And now? Compared to Hungary they are financially an absolute successful country.

The "only" difference is 40 years of communism with its moral-distorting human experiments. That is what the Terror House may teach us. Territorial losses may be survived for healthy nations, moral losses never, because the lack of moral makes complete nations/generations ill.

Deporting and killing either Jews, Communists, "class-enemies" or anyone else is moral-distorting too. This is another lesson you may learn in the House of Terror.

You are definitely right about that communism played an even more important role in forming present day's Hungary than Trianon. However, Trianon's heritage is not only economical (actually after Horthy's time it's pretty much everything else than economical): it was the loss of Hungary as the ruling power of the Carpathian basin, which was a truly huge moral disaster. This, with the same territories lost again, 40 years of communism and 20 years of post-communism is what made Hungary the way it is. It was not the death toll in any of these events, it was much more the moral cost, but you are of course right that economic effects were not lasting.

Austria is a bad example. Austrians are Germans (no matter what they say), and Germans have often demonstrated their incredible ability to recover from almost anything and their inherent drive to always make things better and perform quality work. I very strongly believe that cultures are not equal but there is a quite exact quality ranking among them. In this ranking, Germanic peoples are most certainly among the first, and Hungarians are way below them. (There are, of course, numerous cultures that throughout history have demonstrated a complete inability to bring anything worthwhile to existence.)

[blogen_]

Originally Posted by Sieg

Austria is a bad example. Austrians are Germans (no matter what they say), and Germans have often demonstrated their incredible ability to recover from almost anything and their inherent drive to always make things better and perform quality work. I very strongly believe that cultures are not equal but there is a quite exact quality ranking among them. In this ranking, Germanic peoples are most certainly among the first, and Hungarians are way below them. (There are, of course, numerous cultures that throughout history have demonstrated a complete inability to bring anything worthwhile to existence.)

This is not true! This is one of the communist lies. Hungary dropped behind on the time of the communism, but the communists called themselves superior. So they lied because of this: We are lazy (and not the system is crap).

[tesseract]

Originally Posted by Sieg

This, with the same territories lost again, 40 years of communism and 20 years of post-communism is what made Hungary the way it is.

No. It is the people who live work create here at the moment - who make Hungary the way it is now. And if those people spend their life blaming history for their own impotence, if those people plant the idea of "for every mishaps there is someone or something else to blame other than themselves" into their childrens minds, rather than teaching them how to do the best from what we have - then yes this country will always be like this. Smaller countries with smaller nation and fewer resources can do much better than we can right now. Trianon was a huge shock for those who lost their relatives, who lost their homes, their companies. But it was done 90 f.ckin years ago. Listing it as one of the main cause for current economical, political tensions, is bullshit. Hungary within its current borders has plenty unused potentials. Exploiting those makes a great country not its size.

[RawLee]

The topic should get back to the OP's question...and the OP should reply or something, else I will close the thread as its just an other place to post off-topic things, for which we have already enough places.

[Zalai]

Valaki letudná fordítani, hogy mit jelent az a kérdés, amit angolul feltett egy külföldi? Nem beszélem az angolt, sőt nem is tudok semmit, csak az alap szavakat: "yes or no". Kb. ennyi. Németül 1000x jobban tudok, mint angolul. A google nem fordítja le érthetően.