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Old April 17th, 2012, 04:38 AM   #3001
OneMelbGuy
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Yeah, Im a bit worried about the 'excessive immigration' comment.
Excellent news. Anything that troubles those who believe endless immigration is the answer for western economies, rather than the central contributor to declining quality of life and strain on natural resources, warms my Paul Erlich heart.

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Old April 17th, 2012, 05:28 AM   #3002
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Originally Posted by OneMelbGuy

Excellent news. Anything that troubles those who believe endless immigration is the answer for western economies, rather than the central contributor to declining quality of life and strain on natural resources, warms my Paul Erlich heart.

Oh my sides. Bless.
No, oh MY sides.

So exactly when did immigration start to lower your quality of life or the economic development of this country? Upon white settlement? The waves of Irish and English settlers. Or perhaps the post war booms from southern Europe (my guess is this will be your pick). Or is it just now given the world economic downturn you obviously conclude it is all the immigrants' fault and things would be dandy if that just stopped.

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Old April 17th, 2012, 05:45 AM   #3003
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most expensive random option ever.

huge underground stations - check out the massive Mulgrade station - 68,000 people per day in 2040.

woeful underutilisation of mega-massive trains.

Small Skytrain-like metro can do up to 15000 pax per hour per direction (80 metre stations as opposed to massive 250m station that would be required in that animation above) and not to mention an underground track from Huntingdale woefully not taking into account the wide median that could support single columns supporting track above....

wtf.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 07:47 AM   #3004
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Holy shit @ Caulfield and Burnley increases. What's the point of a carrum terminous though? Way too long for a metro style service, should be Mordiallic instead. I hope those 12 trains from Franga are not all expresses as it means Cheltenham-Caulfield will get bugger all services (3 tph). Interesting to see 4 trains start at Dandenong and no Westall. I wonder if this takes into account the metro tunnel. Footscray gets 27 tph, North Melbourne 43 tph great opportunity for density
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Old April 17th, 2012, 07:52 AM   #3005
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I might support this idea if they actually did the Alamein extension to Huntingdale Station and onwards from there as stage two. But it doesn't appear to be the case in that video, which is a disappointment.

I would have preferred something like this: http://g.co/maps/w489y , though I can see the NIMBYs going apeshit about the idea of having higher density living along Camberwell Road, so I highly doubt this kind of approach will ever take off. Which is a shame. Could have added a compromise, densify the streets covered in the map and add protection outside of those higher density living boundaries (some distance from the stations) for 20 years so that there is a mixture of housing. Heck, add grants to help people buy the house itself, but not the land and have it transported somewhere else, possibly saving on materials while at it!
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Old April 17th, 2012, 09:05 AM   #3006
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What's the point of a carrum terminous though? Way too long for a metro style service, should be Mordiallic instead.
It's actually due to there being three sidings to start trains from for morning peak.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 09:55 AM   #3007
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So exactly when did immigration start to lower your quality of life or the economic development of this country?
Around 2008 when the lack of infrastructure coordination between state govts and the Fed govt (which had bowing to industry pressure groups for massive increases in immigration) began to really show itself in unreasonable overcrowding on public transport, traffic buildup, and water stress, to name just a few indicators. Not to mention hospitals and Centrelink services which are utterly swamped.

To my mind, Melbourne was a perfect city at 2 million, and it could have simply worked with that and enhanced it. I definitely don't think either Melbourne or Sydney are better cities today due to the immigration flood of the last decade. To add 600,000 people in a decade to Melbourne, for example, is simply insanity on any planning level. Australia desperately needs to move to a sustainable economy and slash immigration. Unfortunately Dick Smith has been the only public figure calling this stupidity out, and he's a hero for it, because idiots always flip the racist card, whereas it's a matter of fundamental sustainability and social cohesion. The government has no clue. Where is their strategy document? http://dicksmithpopulation.com
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Old April 17th, 2012, 10:58 AM   #3008
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Originally Posted by OneMelbGuy

Around 2008 when the lack of infrastructure coordination between state govts and the Fed govt (which had bowing to industry pressure groups for massive increases in immigration) began to really show itself in unreasonable overcrowding on public transport, traffic buildup, and water stress, to name just a few indicators. Not to mention hospitals and Centrelink services which are utterly swamped.

To my mind, Melbourne was a perfect city at 2 million, and it could have simply worked with that and enhanced it. I definitely don't think either Melbourne or Sydney are better cities today due to the immigration flood of the last decade. To add 600,000 people in a decade to Melbourne, for example, is simply insanity on any planning level. Australia desperately needs to move to a sustainable economy and slash immigration. Unfortunately Dick Smith has been the only public figure calling this stupidity out, and he's a hero for it, because idiots always flip the racist card, whereas it's a matter of fundamental sustainability and social cohesion. The government has no clue. Where is their strategy document? http://dicksmithpopulation.com
What Dick smith and others ignore is the demographic imperative to avoid the time bomb of an aging population - eg Japan and Europe.
Thanks to a higher birthrate and our immigration intake Australia has more younger people and will avoid many of the demographic problems faced by Japan currently, and Europe in the very near future. Australia has a very favourable demographic age balance compared to other western democracies.

You may have crowded trains now while the infrastructure catches up, but you'll be thankful in years to come as the economy remains sustainable.

I'm not arguing that ultimately a stable population must be achieved for humanity, but the world hasn't worked out how to run an economy with zero growth yet. Give it time.

Meanwhile, I personally don't think rapid population growth in our 4 major cities is such a bad thing.

Coincidentally I was in Melbourne just last weekend and found it just as nice as I remember. And a breeze to get around. I know it wasn't a weekday commute, but people seemed to be enjoying their quality of life. And great and diverse food, as always.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 11:11 AM   #3009
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What Dick smith and others ignore is the demographic imperative to avoid the time bomb of an aging population - eg Japan and Europe.
That old economic furphy has been conclusively disproven. It really is outrageous that it's still flag waved. If it were remotely true, Switzerland, for example, would have ground to a halt decades ago.

Melbourne was quite lovely just at the time it scored it's first Liveable City thingy. The Gehl plan had been implemented, and the CBD was a pleasant place to stroll. Now the crowds make it far less so. But then, I was happy in the 1970s when on a Sunday afternoon it was not unusual to be able to look the length of Swanston street and not see another human being. Inconceivable now.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 11:59 AM   #3010
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Melbourne was quite lovely just at the time it scored it's first Liveable City thingy. The Gehl plan had been implemented, and the CBD was a pleasant place to stroll. Now the crowds make it far less so. But then, I was happy in the 1970s when on a Sunday afternoon it was not unusual to be able to look the length of Swanston street and not see another human being. Inconceivable now.
So basically you'd prefer CBDs to be completely empty of people and you think a whinging egomaniac like Dick Smith is a hero. Your views really encapsulate a certain type of nostalgic NIMBYism that pines for the days of the White Australia policy, thinks everything would be better if we just shut down all urban activity and replaced concrete with dirt and buildings with tumbleweeds. A sort of confused mongrel of ultimately anti-human ideologies: part heritage fetishist anti-development combined with a hint of racism and anti-industrialization.

Given that this is a skyscraper forum for people who believe in a successful, growing city, other than to indulge in an exercise of morbid masochism, why do you even come on here?
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:00 PM   #3011
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Originally Posted by OneMelbGuy

That old economic furphy has been conclusively disproven. It really is outrageous that it's still flag waved. If it were remotely true, Switzerland, for example, would have ground to a halt decades ago.
I'll alert the IMF, the UN and World Bank, as they are still working with this old furphy. I'll tell them it's been conclusively disproven.

I'll also alert Switzerland as they seem to think their growth rate since 2000 has been between 1 and 1.6% p.a. (somewhat comparable to Melbournes average!) mostly the result of immigration! (source Swiss Federal Statistics). With most immigrants from Portugal and Ukraine.

You really should check your facts.

Last edited by brianc68; April 17th, 2012 at 12:10 PM.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:04 PM   #3012
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^ Jesus, I,m moved to ignore. Move to a small town, not only have they not grown since the 70's some hav gotten smaller and more deserted... You,ll be able to look down any street and see no one! Lucky you.


Btw. The other thing dick ignores is that melbourne would have grown by 34,000 natural growth (more births than deaths) in recent years. AND house sizes are getting smaller so more smaller dwellings means more dwellings needed so more density, more sprawl and greater infrastructure needs.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:18 PM   #3013
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I might support this idea if they actually did the Alamein extension to Huntingdale Station and onwards from there as stage two. But it doesn't appear to be the case in that video, which is a disappointment.

I would have preferred something like this: http://g.co/maps/w489y , though I can see the NIMBYs going apeshit about the idea of having higher density living along Camberwell Road, so I highly doubt this kind of approach will ever take off. Which is a shame. Could have added a compromise, densify the streets covered in the map and add protection outside of those higher density living boundaries (some distance from the stations) for 20 years so that there is a mixture of housing. Heck, add grants to help people buy the house itself, but not the land and have it transported somewhere else, possibly saving on materials while at it!
Reason this plan wouldn,t happen Because why abandon a perfectly good two track railway less than 1km away. It's not like camberwell road is a existing activity centre so if you are going t shift land use to a transport corridor it might as well be to the existing one (Alamein line) and not spend $1 billion + to build a tunnel to the same place the line goes anyway.

The premise of linking to the Alamein line I agree with though. Honestly there are probably almost as many people going along that corridor as there are into the city...
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:19 PM   #3014
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Any reason in particular for only 3tph on the Hurst line to Greensborough, below every other middle suburban through line except Upfield?

At the moment that line pushes more trains & more pax than the Epping/South Morang line does albeit has more limited patronage growth.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:39 PM   #3015
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Thought that was odd too... Especially 6tph all the way to south morang, most of the others stop short of that could understand 6tph to reservoir say.

Other thing that you can consider here is inner core capacity.

21 tph burnley loop (room for a bit of growth)
8 direct fss flinders street glen waverly. (room for growth)
16 caulfield loop dandenong. (room for growth)
15 frankston to Newport (room for growth)
8 direct fss sandringham. (room for growth)
18 Clifton hill loop. (room for growth)
29 northern loop upfield/craigieburn/sunbury

Obviously that last one is the hardest to comprehend from an inner city capacity perspective... Actually even adding the two northern group tracks at 44tph shows why Melbourne metro is needed for the west...

They,ll have to run some of the northern loop trains direct to sxs. Removing the upfields doesn,t get the total low enough for it to work.so they,d have to take say half the craigieburns or sunburys out of the loop and send them to sxs or maybe linked across to flinders street to glen waverley or sandringham?
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:42 PM   #3016
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Yeah I know, the image accompany the age article is out there to confuse people have slightly more rail knowledge than the average joe.

At first I thought 3 would terminate at Greensborough, 3 at Eltham and [whatever] at Hurstbridge, but it looks like it's just there to show how certain peak frequencies will terminate at Greensborough and some will go on to Eltham. They could at least make 6 trains per hour off peak to Greensborough........... ditto Upfield - just keep the same timetable throughout the day [therefore level crossings all throughout Moreland can become predictable for road users]

Craigieburn will be ****ED if they dont grade separate either Buckley St or Puckle St/Holmes Road (and even Glenas Royale) within 10 years at that kind of peak frequency. I'm leaning toward thinking that Buckley will be done sooner rather than later - a train in either direction every 5 minutes = level crossing down for 40-50 minutes in each hour for a fairly major arterial road.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:45 PM   #3017
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Also Macaulay Road (Kensington and Macaulay stations) is probably best avoided, now and in future - not really that much of a problem on the Upfield crossing, but in Kensington it's going to be totally rooted (just like at Essendon/Moonee Ponds).
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:55 PM   #3018
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http://www.rowvillerailstudy.com.au/...ing-report.pdf

Here is the report. Page 41 shows it's 7 craigieburns running direct to fss presumably over the north Melbourne flyover.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:56 PM   #3019
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I'm leaning toward thinking that Buckley will be done sooner rather than later - a train in either direction every 5 minutes = level crossing down for 40-50 minutes in each hour for a fairly major arterial road.
It's any different to the various Dandenong line level crossings how?

At least Mount Alexander Rd has a nearby road underpass. Couple of years ago at Buckley St they changed the crossing setup so the booms went off when a train approached Glenbervie (WTF) when previously they were set off when trains hit the middle of the platform at Essendon, now thankfully fixed.
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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:56 PM   #3020
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Notwithstanding the issues with level crossings on the Upfield line:

- easiest/cheapest fix to start would be to dive the line straight after Jewell Station and send the line under Brunswick Road and Park St

(watch first 40 seconds)



- do the same at Bell St (but requires rebuild of Coburg station)

you could fairly easily increase Upfield to 6 tph throughout the day

6 Upfield, 12 Craigieburn (essentially share the same track from North Melbourne) is a piece of piss for the northern loop given Frankston/Werribee/Williamstown effectively become 1 train line and run direct / non-loop throughout the day... a train every 3 minutes and 20 seconds in the loop

peak:

5:00pm Upfield
5:02pm Craigieburn
5:07pm Craigieburn
5:10pm Upfield
5:12pm Craigieburn
5:17pm Carigieburn
5:20pm Upfield

off-peak:

12:00pm Upfield
12:05pm Craigieburn
12:10pm Upfield
12:15pm Craigieburn
12:20pm Upfield

and so on.
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