Tram System | Blackpool | U/C

[Mwmbwls]

Originally Posted by mr_jrt

Just stumbled across this concept work...

..and then this one too.

Thoughts?

Excellent concept. As the double deckers in Blackpool finally expire then this could well be the replacement - although a top deck door would present challenges with regard to the tram stop architecture particularly away from the reserved track areas. The only problem I could foresee is that the number of units required would be relatively small and therefore it is unlikely that Blackpool could summon up the critical mass to justify a special production line at Alsthom.

However in terms of reviving the Cross River Tram/Oxford Street Tram Concept in London - this type of vehicle could be right on the money. Two and half car set lengths are probably about as much as street running in London could successfully take. Smoother riding than a Boris Master it could be a winner

[BoyamIjealous]

Originally Posted by Mwmbwls

Excellent concept. As the double deckers in Blackpool finally expire then this could well be the replacement - although a top deck door would present challenges with regard to the tram stop architecture particularly away from the reserved track areas.

Nothing that can't be sorted out with a few space hoppers. This is Blackpool, you know!

[Johnny de Rivative]

Well, we came over last Sunday to have a look at your wonderful new system, and were not disappointed! My colleague may have more comments to post on the technical side, but to my mind the whole outfit is sleek, stylish, up-market - nothing less than 'poetry in motion' - it will surely play a big part in putting Blackpool well and truly back on the 'continental destination' map.

Apart from the superb aesthetics, one of the most impressive features to me was the ability of the trams to 'call' the traffic lights at conflicting road junctions well enough in advance, so they can go gliding speedily through without hardly having to slow down. This seems to have been achieved by quite an elaborate system of signalling - there are two separate small red corner lights above each dot matrix, which go out one after the other prior to the 'off'. Somewhat beyond my technical knowledge, but it looks like the procedure gives progressive information to the driver, about the imminence or otherwise of a 'proceed' aspect (a bit like a 'distant' railway signal), enabling them to 'read the road' ahead more efficiently. It all makes for a superbly smooth and continuous 'glide' along the coastal way.

Just now the frequency is only 30 mins on a Sunday as only a few trams have been delivered as yet, but we were told more will arrive before the high season in July. So we had to wait a while before one came along, but it was 'arf an exciting wait! :-





It certainly seems to fit snug and stylishly into its environment here, and makes a commanding new presence against the esoteric backdrop :-



The heritage trams constitute another groundbreaking offer to the tourist - it must be very unusual to be able to enjoy such a variegated mixture of the old and the new, running on the same public service line? :-







Here's a few shots from a 'front seat' ride from Starr Gate to Fleetwood :-

















We liked the green poles with red finials. The system has quite a variety of colour idents now, with blue signboards, and the purple, black and white livery :-



The stops, all low-floor, have metal foot crossings on the railroad sections :-



A spider's web of OHLE at Fleetwood Ferry :-







In the street-running section, the rails have been slewed outwards, to meet the stop platforms at kerbside. They used to hug the crown of the road throughout, and we saw one elderly motorist taken by surprise when pulling out from the side to get a good view, not realising that he was now fouling the re-aligned permanent way :-





The Fleetwood substation is not commissioned yet, so at the moment there is only enough power for a single vehicle in the loop North of Fisherman's Walk. (A 'token' system is therefore in operation, another delightful bit of nostalgia, sorry I didn't get a snap of it) :-





Back in Blackpool, I hadn't realised that a full double turnout of points have been placed in both directions, for a future extension up Talbot Road towards North Station :-



All in all, a great day out!!

[bertyboy]

Wow! Haven't been to Blackpool in years, but it's looking really smart, especially the trams. Will have to make a trip up there this summer!

[BoyamIjealous]

Originally Posted by Johnny de Rivative

Well, we came over last Sunday to have a look at your wonderful new system, and were not disappointed!

The Fleetwood substation is not commissioned yet, so at the moment there is only enough power for a single vehicle in the loop North of Fisherman's Walk. (A 'token' system is therefore in operation, another delightful bit of nostalgia, sorry I didn't get a snap of it)

Johnny, those are great pictures of a system that will surely help revitalise the Fylde coast.

The token system prior to this Great Leap Forward is something I remember with equal nostalgia. This was around 1989, when the tramway was reduced to a single line between Bispham and Gynn Square for renewal of the "Up" line. It consisted then of an inspector boarding the tram at Bispham, bearing what looked to me like a green-painted square wooden rolling pin. He would hand it to the driver with aplomb, and with gravitas not unlike the passing of the baton in an Olympic 4 x 400 relay final. IMSMR, a small metal plate wasnailed to the rolling pin, bearing a number. Was this the token after Ash Street - sorry, Fishermans Walk?

I saw the points at Talbot Square in photos on Flickr, in Blackpool Beach's photostram, and I hope he/she doesn't mind me posting this pair here:
image hosted on flickr



image hosted on flickr


If you do mind, BB, then PM me, and I'll sort it.

[metrogogo]

In this photo the tram driver as just retrieved the token from the black box seen behind his right shoulder.

]image hosted on flickr
P1000997 by metrogogo, on Flickr

[Johnny de Rivative]

Cheers folks. It looked like a little yellow painted wooden block, say 12 x 3 x 3 cm.

[leauk]

I'll be in Blackpool, for my annual holiday, in September. Can't wait to see what they've done since I was there last September.

[BoyamIjealous]

Can you see the difference between these two pictures?

Originally Posted by Johnny de Rivative

Originally Posted by Johnny de Rivative

Cheers folks. It looked like a little yellow painted wooden block, say 12 x 3 x 3 cm.

High-tech solution, then, compared to the previous system, which employed a much bigger wooden block, green in colour. You've got to move with the times.....

I'm not mocking. It's a perfectly simple and effective solution to a temporary problem. In the space race of the 1970s, it was realised that ball-point pens didn't work well without gravity. NASA are said to have spent a lot of money on developing a new model that incorporated a small pumping system. The Russians gave their cosmonauts pencils.

[ill tonkso]

Originally Posted by BoyamIjealous

I'm not mocking. It's a perfectly simple and effective solution to a temporary problem. In the space race of the 1970s, it was realised that ball-point pens didn't work well without gravity. NASA are said to have spent a lot of money on developing a new model that incorporated a small pumping system. The Russians gave their cosmonauts pencils.

Lol, classic story, totally untrue but appropriate.

[WatcherZero]

Actually was true, they thought pencils were dangerous because of the shavings/broken nibs along with millions spent on a toilet seat before they gave up and went with the suction tube.

[Freel07]

Any info on how the new Flexities faired during the storms over the weekend.

[dpjones1978]

Dont think there was any problems as i was down there this weekend.

Seen tram 012 near the tower heading for fleetwood;


Tram 009 20 mins later;


And got on 005 at st chads road;


Also seen 717 and the micheal ayre tram on the saturday but didnt get any pics as i was in the duttons arms having breakfast.

[Freel07]

Originally Posted by dpjones1978

Dont think there was any problems as i was down there this weekend.

Seen tram 012 near the tower heading for fleetwood;

good news then, I just wondered whether there were any problems due to sea spray etc. Seem to recall Virgin Voyagers having problems with their rheostatic brake equipment on Dawlish Sea Wall during high seas and high winds.

[WatcherZero]

These were designed with the weather conditions in mind Freel, all over stainless steel and sheltering of components on the underside.

[BoyamIjealous]

Originally Posted by Freel07

good news then, I just wondered whether there were any problems due to sea spray etc. Seem to recall Virgin Voyagers having problems with their rheostatic brake equipment on Dawlish Sea Wall during high seas and high winds.

I'm not surprised, Freel, I've been on trains through Dawlish in the worst of weather, when the track circuit has been out and the poor driver has had to get out to use the phone on the signal post. Brunel didn't have modern trains in mind when he built that track, let alone trains that use a three-bar electric fire on the roof to slow down. Having said that, I seem to recall a software fix for the Voyagers to stop water in the rheostatic brakes from tripping the power system as used to happen.
Blackpool's weather issues and the effect on electrically-powered tram function are something that have been studied for over a century, and that knowledge will have been used to good effect in the Flexity Blackpool design. I think they have regenerative braking, easier to keep dry than resistor banks. Plus if it all does go wrong, it's easier to sort out than a mainline rail track. And local knowledge of when to keep the trams at home is well developed.

[Freel07]

Originally Posted by BoyamIjealous

I'm not surprised, Freel, I've been on trains through Dawlish in the worst of weather, when the track circuit has been out and the poor driver has had to get out to use the phone on the signal post. Brunel didn't have modern trains in mind when he built that track, let alone trains that use a three-bar electric fire on the roof to slow down. Having said that, I seem to recall a software fix for the Voyagers to stop water in the rheostatic brakes from tripping the power system as used to happen.
Blackpool's weather issues and the effect on electrically-powered tram function are something that have been studied for over a century, and that knowledge will have been used to good effect in the Flexity Blackpool design. I think they have regenerative braking, easier to keep dry than resistor banks. Plus if it all does go wrong, it's easier to sort out than a mainline rail track. And local knowledge of when to keep the trams at home is well developed.

The Blackpool Flexity 2 cars don't have regenerative braking although the base design does. I think one of the concerns was that when the system is lightly loadd the line voltage would be too high for the heritage cars. It can reach well over 900 volts if there is nothing around to dissipate the regenerated power. This means the Flexities will be using rheostatic brakes so the 'electric fire' will be in use whenever the tram brakes. Even if they were configured for regen the system is so lightly loaded that it would be of very little use.

[BoyamIjealous]

Originally Posted by Freel07

The Blackpool Flexity 2 cars don't have regenerative braking although the base design does. I think one of the concerns was that when the system is lightly loadd the line voltage would be too high for the heritage cars. It can reach well over 900 volts if there is nothing around to dissipate the regenerated power. This means the Flexities will be using rheostatic brakes so the 'electric fire' will be in use whenever the tram brakes. Even if they were configured for regen the system is so lightly loaded that it would be of very little use.

Thanks for the explanation, Freel. I'm surprised the voltage can get so high - I thought if anything, it would be the current that increased. But I'm no physicist.

Mind you, I'm no artist either, except for the obvious. This whole thing is, however, a work of art! Much better than turning the lights on and off, or leaving the bed unmade, this can evoke emotion for the triumph of man over, well, not going anywhere fast. I think it is a wonderful progression from the original tramway, and one that Blackpool and the whole Fylde Coast can be proud of.

[Freel07]

Originally Posted by BoyamIjealous

Thanks for the explanation, Freel. I'm surprised the voltage can get so high - I thought if anything, it would be the current that increased. But I'm no physicist.

For the regeneration to work the voltage produced by the tram must rise above the normal nominal line voltage so the current is exported from the tram. Since on a normal 750 volt system the line volts can be over 800 when during normal operation the tram must generate at a higher voltage. Some systems can reach almost 1000v before the rheostatic brake cuts in if there are no other trams around to absorb the power. The setting of the highest voltage is part of the commissioning tests.

I wonder whether part of the reason for regenerative braking not being enabled in Blackpool is the presence of the heritage fleet with old traction equipment which may not be compatible with such high voltages.

[WatcherZero]

Blackpool isnt 750v, its 600v. It will vary with model but ive seen data to suggest the heritage trams can handle a range of around 350v-780v. So raising the nominal line voltage from 550v to 600v for the Flexities was within their safe operating range. The flexities on the other hand are barely above their minimum nominal voltage requirement.