Cars Cars Cars!!

[SoroushPersepolisi]

Originally Posted by urbastar

People that are working in national auto companies could work in foreign ones if the latters were coming in Iran. Indeed, how are doing countries like Holland, mexico, chile, turkey, algeria...?
Even modest people in these countries have better cars than the average iranians.

the problem with iranian car makers is that they are progressing at a too slow pace. It is not satisfaying to keep producing paykan, pride, 405 for decades, to make new cars that are just transformations of previous models and to be proud of that :to sum up, to propose ugly, pollutant, unsafety, fuel-consuming...craps to 70 000 000 people just because of 5 000 people.

Is the average iranian condemn to wait 50 years to see Iran khodro/Saipa drastically progress and have a large range of decent "democratic" cars coming from the national companies?

[Herbicide]

Originally Posted by urbastar

People that are working in national auto companies could work in foreign ones if the latters were coming in Iran. Indeed, how are doing countries like Holland, mexico, chile, turkey, algeria...?
Even modest people in these countries have better cars than the average iranians.

the problem with iranian car makers is that they are progressing at a too slow pace. It is not satisfaying to keep producing paykan, pride, 405 for decades, to make new cars that are just transformations of previous models and to be proud of that :to sum up, to propose ugly, pollutant, unsafety, fuel-consuming...craps to 70 000 000 people just because of 5 000 people.

Is the average iranian condemn to wait 50 years to see Iran khodro/Saipa drastically progress and have a large range of decent "democratic" cars coming from the national companies?

Although the sanctions wouldn't stop foreign companies importing cars, I think the situation is probably causing some of the problems on the production lines. IKCO and Saipa would probably not be able to compete with foreign brands in this environment and would be killed off. They have great potential for the future. Iran needs to establish and nurture domestic Iranian brands and companies. To give them up during this difficult period and leave them to wither and die under sanctions and imports would be short-sighted and pointless. The result would be a future Iran with no international HQs and where all well known brands are foreign and much of the profits from everything you buy goes out of the country. Most big global car makers were established many years ago under the protection of import tariffs. If it dropped tariffs now, then after the sanctions are lifted Iran would be establishing domestic brands and companies from scratch in a very tough and competitive global market. At least if it gets through this with domestic companies intact, then it has a firm base to build from.

[Big Abdul]

There is a simple answer to this question: Take Opel/Vauxhall/Holden in other words they are General Motors but in their respective regions they are native car producers, all producing for there respective markets. If the government was to introduce new cars it need not close down the producers, they could in theory sell Saipa to Renault/Peuguot lets say keep the name Saipa but in the agreement to sell the company the government would retain the right to keep 80% of the employees in the factory, obviously they would need to cut out some fat of the system for modernization. And same goes for IKCO

[urbastar]

Originally Posted by Herbicide

Although the sanctions wouldn't stop foreign companies importing cars, I think the situation is probably causing some of the problems on the production lines. IKCO and Saipa would probably not be able to compete with foreign brands in this environment and would be killed off. They have great potential for the future. Iran needs to establish and nurture domestic Iranian brands and companies. To give them up during this difficult period and leave them to wither and die under sanctions and imports would be short-sighted and pointless. The result would be a future Iran with no international HQs and where all well known brands are foreign and much of the profits from everything you buy goes out of the country. Most big global car makers were established many years ago under the protection of import tariffs. If it dropped tariffs now, then after the sanctions are lifted Iran would be establishing domestic brands and companies from scratch in a very tough and competitive global market. At least if it gets through this with domestic companies intact, then it has a firm base to build from.

It is pointless to try to have a decent national car company in this period. Ikco and saipa are progressing at a snail pace. the gap with the foreign brand and iranian is too big and won't be filled anytime soon with all these sanctions. Iranians have the right to have the possibility to choose between a lot of decent product (like in turkey), not only between some cheap cars.

Let's keep the smartphone/cellphone example : As an average iranian, do you prefer to have the choice between all the range of samsung, panasonic, iphone etc.. or between just some national outdated products (in the name of the national industry) ?

To have a strong national car company, the sanctions should be lifted, and IKCO/Saipa would have to work with foreign brand to progress drastically. Even international brands work together. Iran can't do much alone, not only in automotive industry.

[Herbicide]

You both miss my point completely.

Originally Posted by Big Abdul

There is a simple answer to this question: Take Opel/Vauxhall/Holden in other words they are General Motors but in their respective regions they are native car producers, all producing for there respective markets. If the government was to introduce new cars it need not close down the producers, they could in theory sell Saipa to Renault/Peuguot lets say keep the name Saipa but in the agreement to sell the company the government would retain the right to keep 80% of the employees in the factory, obviously they would need to cut out some fat of the system for modernization. And same goes for IKCO

This would make them subsidiaries of foreign corporations, selling market share off to them and allowing profits to flow abroad. To start again with only the brand name and nothing else in an extremely competitive market would be next to impossible without government support and protective tariffs. In any case what company is going to buy them at the moment?

Originally Posted by urbastar

It is pointless to try to have a decent national car company in this period. Ikco and saipa are progressing at a snail pace. the gap with the foreign brand and iranian is too big and won't be filled anytime soon with all these sanctions.

Which is exactly why they need protection during this time. Foreigners would be at an unfair advantage and stand to benefit at the Iranian auto industry's expense.

Originally Posted by urbastar

Iranians have the right to have the possibility to choose between a lot of decent product

No one has the rite to a wide consumer choice. It's something you happen to have or not. Its not a rite in any constitutions or charters, unlike access to basic goods and services.

Originally Posted by urbastar

To have a strong national car company, the sanctions should be lifted, and IKCO/Saipa would have to work with foreign brand to progress drastically. Even international brands work together.

But the these sanctions are a reality at the moment. To keep Saipa/IKCO alive, the tariffs must remain until after they are lifted.

[Big Abdul]

Look whichever option you chose there is only one outcome for the national car producers. Which is a slow death. Let me explain why, every car producer in the world knows that Iran is a good market to be in even with sanctions and cars sell. What would happen if a Chinese car producer decided to slash the price of there cars to half the price of the Iranian car companies. This would make them competitive in the closed market, more people would buy these cars even if they were chinese as it was just something different at a good price. You may say that this would make no financial sense for these companies but this has happened before in closed markets and they hedge their bets on the secondary products market parts servicing, all in an aid to sit on the future of buying out the local products market. If I were chinese with my surplus cash this would be my option to enter the market and I would win hands down.

[omidhercule]

- The agreement to produce the first fully Iranian platform will be signed very soon.
- 2 platforms will be made and 10 new vehicles will be made based on them
- The first car based on one of these platforms will hit markets in 2013

امضای قرارداد طراحي و توسعه اولين پلتفرم ايران خودرو

با انجام مذاکرات و رفع موانع و مشکلات مربوط به نحوه اجراي فرايندهاي مالي و پولي، به زودي قرارداد طراحي و توسعه پلتفرم کلاس B ايران خودرو نهايي مي شود.



به گزارش ايکو پرس ، مهندس جواد نجم الدين مدير عامل گروه صنعتي ايران خودرو با بيان اين مطلب گفت : طراحي دو پلتفرم جديد خودرو در کلاس Bو,D با سرمايه گذاري 1300 ميليارد تومان و توليد و عرضه 10 محصول جديد بر اساس اين پلتفرم ها تا سال 1400 دردستور کار اين شرکت قرار دارد .


وي افزود : در مورد پلتفرم اول، مذاکره با شرکت هاي مشاور طراحي و مهندسي آغاز شده و به زودي قرارداد آن، نهايي مي شود.


مهندس نجم الدين از مشارکت قطعه سازان زنجيره تامين با ايران خودرو در طراحي و توليد پلتفرم ها خبر داد و گفت: کار اصلي طراحي و توسعه پلتفرم را خود ايران خودرو انجام مي دهد و اجزاي مختلف را سازندگان در کنار شرکت مشاور، طراحي و نمونه سازي مي کنند.


مدير عامل گروه صنعتي ايران خودرو ، پلتفرم را مجموعه اي از اجراي خودرو از جمله کفي، گيربکس، موتور، اکسل ها، فريم و سيستم صندلي و فرمان ذکر کرد که مدل هاي مختلف خودرو با تغييرات محدود، بر روي آن قرار مي گيرد.


مهندس نجم الدين افزود: ساير بخش ها مانند سيستم خنک کاري و تزيينات داخلي براي هر مدل به صورت خاص طراحي و توسعه يافته و به آزمون هاي مختلف مي رسد.


وي از الزام سازندگان براي سرمايه گذاري در قطعات و مجموعه هاي جديد سخن گفت و اظهار داشت: انتظار مي رود سازندگان در فاز طراحي همراه شوند و کار نمونه سازي را انجام دهند.


مدير عامل گروه صنعتي ايران خودرو تصريح کرد : بعد از دريافت نمونه ها از سازندگان، در قالب اولين خودرويي که روي اين پلتفرم توسعه مي يابد، تست هاي لازم انجام و صحه گذاري و در قالب محصول به بازار عرضه مي شود.


وي تاکيد کرد : نخستين محصول ايران خودرو براساس اين پلتفرم ها نيز سال 1393 به بازار


مي رسد .


مدير عامل گروه صنعتي ايران خودرو ، استفاده از گيربکس هاي مختلف روي يک پلتفرم را به شرط اين که گيربکس از نظر جانمايي با مشخصات هندسي محصول تطابق داشته باشد، امکان پذير دانست و تصريح کرد: بر روي يک پلتفرم مي توان گيربکس دستي يا اتوماتيک و يا سيستم هيبريد نصب کرد که نيازمند تغييراتي در مکانيزم هاي انتقال نيرو است و اين ها همه بايد در چارچوب پروژه پلتفرم ديده شده و اجزاي آن توسعه يابد.


مهندس نجم الدين از شروع فرايند انتخاب قطعه سازان براي پلتفرم هاي جديد ايران خودرو خبر داد و گفت: سازندگان توانمند که ضمن برخورداري از قابليت طراحي و مهندسي، خطوط توليد جديد نيز ايجاد مي کنند، در اين پروژه به کار گرفته مي شوند.

[Herbicide]

Originally Posted by Big Abdul

If I were chinese with my surplus cash this would be my option to enter the market and I would win hands down.

They don't necessarily have an inevitable slow death if they are adequately supported and well managed until such time they can stand on their own.
This would be selling out. If you were a Chinese investor or corporation this would certainly be a win win proposition. But not for Iran. In a post sanction environment IKCO would have great potentials to improve its products, sort out its production lines,expand overseas and be in a really strong position before support was wound down. But not if its gone! Turned into a local assembler of Chinese cars (most of which are no better than what is already made in Iran). Plus what makes you think they would make the cars cheaper? They would benefit from the same import tariffs as IKCO/Saipa does now. Even if they did offer more competitive products or prices to Iranian consumers, what is more important? Deals for Iranian consumers or the future of Iranian industry?

[urbastar]

Koleos and other renault coming to iran http://www.persiankhodro.com/show_news.php?c=11372

and prices : http://www.persiankhodro.com/news_im...news_11068.jpg

[Big Abdul]

(WARNING SPOILER) Ok, lets put it this way, 2 years time America and Iran are best of buddies and all sanctions are removed. Iran slowly edges the import tariffs in 2 years after that, then what? Auto car makers outside of Iran will do there upmost to gain in this developing economy. Everyone piles in with local assembly lines say VW, Fiat, SIAC or some other Chinese brand. American cars are just not going to enter that quickly let alone produce internally again. So seeing this SAIPA IKCO rush to bring there markets to product. Falling way behind that everyone doesn't want to buy the Samand Hybrid even if does have new designed lights. Where as under the licence from the government, Fiat has just sold 15,000 Fiat 500's in the first 6 months at 13,000,000 Toman each. People are still going to by the Tiiba, Samand, or even 206, nah. All is lost and they were never ready, same way the British cars industry died a horrible slow death. Listen to my warning, when a car market opens up national producers suffer, even if they do produce the same quality as outside, because the Kharaji is always more popular than the local.

[urbastar]

Originally Posted by Big Abdul

(WARNING SPOILER) Ok, lets put it this way, 2 years time America and Iran are best of buddies and all sanctions are removed. Iran slowly edges the import tariffs in 2 years after that, then what? Auto car makers outside of Iran will do there upmost to gain in this developing economy. Everyone piles in with local assembly lines say VW, Fiat, SIAC or some other Chinese brand. American cars are just not going to enter that quickly let alone produce internally again. So seeing this SAIPA IKCO rush to bring there markets to product. Falling way behind that everyone doesn't want to buy the Samand Hybrid even if does have new designed lights. Where as under the licence from the government, Fiat has just sold 15,000 Fiat 500's in the first 6 months at 13,000,000 Toman each. People are still going to by the Tiiba, Samand, or even 206, nah. All is lost and they were never ready, same way the British cars industry died a horrible slow death. Listen to my warning, when a car market opens up national producers suffer, even if they do produce the same quality as outside, because the Kharaji is always more popular than the local.

Would you be nostalgic of tiba and 206?

[Herbicide]

What makes you think its going to be like the UK and not Germany, France, Korea and Japan. Ditching protective tariffs and support for local industry overnight and prematurely is like something the UK would do, not these other countries. If tariffs were wound down, it would have to be in a post sanctions environment and be done gradually to allow the local brands to adjust, develop and become competitive.
Every medium to large size economy has local car assembly but not every country has managed to establish its own independent car making giant with assembly in other countries. This fatalistic laissez-fair approach would leave Iran with absolutely NOTHING to show for its long efforts to create a domestic auto industry. Nobody here seems to see beyond their own narrow consumer interests.

[Big Abdul]

You know, I am not going to keep this argument going. Just watch this space.

[persian]

Best of buddies!!! sanctions removed!!!! come on man.

[urbastar]

Figures of Iran market in April : http://bestsellingcarsblog.com/category/iran/

Pride still on top, but good to see it is going down. Peugeot cars are going down too and it seems that Renault will fill the gap with the tondar + megane and in some months with the fluence, scala and laguna.

I am surprised not to see the soren in this ranking.

[Herbicide]

Saipa seems to be having real problems.

[KalePache]

Originally Posted by Herbicide

Saipa seems to be having real problems.

although i wish for Iran's industries to flourish, im extremely irritated with our automobile industry. I have a couple relatives who work for Saipa and one of them is in a higher position. He was telling me about how the company targets even some safety features in their cars in order to cut costs/make profit.
Saipa is producing poor quality vehicles and even when they sign deals with foreign companies they tend to go for the cheap/old vehicles.
It's not because they can't, its because they don't want to.

[Big Abdul]

You know the Tiiba is a nice looking car I puzzle myself why people would buy the Pride over it? Amirex mentioned once they are the same price is this true?

[Amirex111]

Originally Posted by Big Abdul

You know the Tiiba is a nice looking car I puzzle myself why people would buy the Pride over it? Amirex mentioned once they are the same price is this true?

Abdul, watch out ive heard that it might go up to 12 million in a few months. It might be that they wanted to start low so people will buy it and check it out.

[urbastar]

Just saw the runna ad on iranian TV. It is confirmed that the runna handles are the same that the 206 ones, contrary to what they unveiled 2 years ago. Always aim low with IKCO/Saipa.