Iraqi politics

[SumerianKing]

Originally Posted by Spin Cycle

I don't see this happening soon. Maybe two or three rounds down the line, but there are barriers.

Somehow, we need to get a nationalist, secular party with no tradition of association with foreign governments gaining traction.

The other avenue for reform is weakening central government in favour of local government.

That would be a dream come true.

[rasheed30]

lool wow! if allawi was in power all this time, we'll still be in a civil war, and the security situation wud be 100000 times worse than now! dude, most of that party are ba3this.

and you're not going to see secularism in iraq.

as for those so called human rights watch. i have 0 respect for those biased liars. look at the timing of this news. its wen we have a conflict with hashimi and the krg. someone is behind this.

i wish they wud report on human rights violation in israeli prisons or in the usa, and what happened during the occupy movement. they can take those articles and shove it up their ass.

[Spin Cycle]

Originally Posted by rasheed30

lool wow! if allawi was in power all this time, we'll still be in a civil war, and the security situation wud be 100000 times worse than now! dude, most of that party are ba3this.

and you're not going to see secularism in iraq.

as for those so called human rights watch. i have 0 respect for those biased liars. look at the timing of this news. its wen we have a conflict with hashimi and the krg. someone is behind this.

i wish they wud report on human rights violation in israeli prisons or in the usa, and what happened during the occupy movement. they can take those articles and shove it up their ass.

Why not? Most people (including religious people) are already of the opinion that religion should not be involved in politics.

[rasheed30]

Originally Posted by Spin Cycle

Why not? Most people (including religious people) are already of the opinion that religion should not be involved in politics.

its not gonna work. thats the truth, and the majority gonna be opposed to it.
some things are not made for us my friend. it will bring us more problems than good.

the problem in iraq is not the way it shud be ruled, or what type of system we should adopt. the problem is economy.

if the economy in iraq improves, everything in iraq will improve, politics will improve, our religious people will improve. basically every aspect of our life will improve. we should focus on our economy and find a way to fix it.

[Chounz]

Originally Posted by rasheed30

if the economy in iraq improves, everything in iraq will improve, politics will improve, our religious people will improve. basically every aspect of our life will improve. we should focus on our economy and find a way to fix it.

I actually believe in this so much. When the standard of living in Iraq increases, poor people become more educated and exposed to the outside world, their MENTALITIES change (hopefully) and become less religious-minded, secularism and freedom will it be a lot easier to evolve. While typing this I remembered a theory I studied in Economics during high school, which further helps this point:
I forgot the name of the theory but it's basically a 'pyramid' of needs, it says that when people in life meet one set of needs, they will move on to the next, and they won't long for one set if they haven't fulfilled the one prior to that.

I think it was:

1. Human needs (food, drink, sleep, shelter, 5th one?)
2. Safety/security
3. Social needs (friends, family, social life etc.)
4. Respect, confidence, recognition, etc.

And then one last set of need, sorry forgot what it was exactly but something basically along the lines of being a big part of society, more recognition/acceptance, promotion, entrepreneurship, etc. things like that.

Point is people right now in Iraq don't have electricity and don't have clean water... of course they won't be asking for more freedom.. they're barely surviving. There was a 'methel' in arabic/iraqi that my dad used when describing the situation in Iraq, something about feeding the dog or something .. it was basically talking about the leaders, it's saying how not giving the people what they want and demand.. keeps you in power and gives you more control over them.
When Iraqis start have a better quality of life, good jobs with good incomes, get air conditioning/electricity and water, have SAFETY and SECURITY, proper education and healthcare, new houses and new cars... they will long for needs such as freedom of speech, freedom of what to wear and how to look, they will start challenging social norms and customs and will try to change them, they'll say no when religious 'authorities' ban certain festivals with music and public dancing, they wont accept teenage boys getting killed for having different hairstyles and wearing skinny jeans.
HOPEFULLY, then, the people will be in charge and not the imams or seyyids or religious sheikhs or whatever. Not even the politicians. The people will decide what they want their country to be like.

[Chounz]

I just looked it up and remembered, it's called Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

[BigDreamer]

hm.. i would think people would need most of these things at the same time.. don't understand why there is a hierarchy..

eg, if you are hungry, looking for basic humanitarian needs, it doesn't imply you wouldn't care about social needs .. in fact, it's probably as important as your basic needs since without social relations, it would be difficult to survive.

[rasheed30]

Originally Posted by Chounz

I actually believe in this so much. When the standard of living in Iraq increases, poor people become more educated and exposed to the outside world, their MENTALITIES change (hopefully) and become less religious-minded, secularism and freedom will it be a lot easier to evolve. While typing this I remembered a theory I studied in Economics during high school, which further helps this point:
I forgot the name of the theory but it's basically a 'pyramid' of needs, it says that when people in life meet one set of needs, they will move on to the next, and they won't long for one set if they haven't fulfilled the one prior to that.

I think it was:

1. Human needs (food, drink, sleep, shelter, 5th one?)
2. Safety/security
3. Social needs (friends, family, social life etc.)
4. Respect, confidence, recognition, etc.

And then one last set of need, sorry forgot what it was exactly but something basically along the lines of being a big part of society, more recognition/acceptance, promotion, entrepreneurship, etc. things like that.

Point is people right now in Iraq don't have electricity and don't have clean water... of course they won't be asking for more freedom.. they're barely surviving. There was a 'methel' in arabic/iraqi that my dad used when describing the situation in Iraq, something about feeding the dog or something .. it was basically talking about the leaders, it's saying how not giving the people what they want and demand.. keeps you in power and gives you more control over them.
When Iraqis start have a better quality of life, good jobs with good incomes, get air conditioning/electricity and water, have SAFETY and SECURITY, proper education and healthcare, new houses and new cars... they will long for needs such as freedom of speech, freedom of what to wear and how to look, they will start challenging social norms and customs and will try to change them, they'll say no when religious 'authorities' ban certain festivals with music and public dancing, they wont accept teenage boys getting killed for having different hairstyles and wearing skinny jeans.
HOPEFULLY, then, the people will be in charge and not the imams or seyyids or religious sheikhs or whatever. Not even the politicians. The people will decide what they want their country to be like.

idk what people on this forum have against religion!!! but it looks like most of you live outside of iraq, probably in europe, and it's where they brainwashed you at school into thinking that you're backward people, to a level where they made you ashamed of yourself and who you are, and you find yourself constantly trying to change your identity. they taught you to hate yourself.

it's something that been done some many times before in history, i.e. african americans. watch this short clip by malcolm x:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRSgUTWffMQ
same thing is being done to muslims today!

look your not going to succeed by eliminating religion from your region. our region (the middle east) is where all religions have started. it where every major historical figure was born. it's where most empire and dynasties where founded. you cannot erase all of that. it's IMPOSSIBLE. there is too much history, heritage, and culture to erase.

so it's wiser of you to find a way to work with religion then to just dismiss it completely.

you also proposed a dangerous idea of giving iraqis all kinds of freedoms. we're a type of people (iraqis) who take everything to the extreme. if you give iraqis all these freedoms, all you're going to see is sex, drugs, alcohol, and the spread of many diseases. WE DON'T KNOW BALANCE. believe me we'll be worse than africa, and at that moment you'll know what backward really means.

you cannot let people have a say in everything. you must have a leader. it will be a mess without one.

lastly, here is something that they didn't teach you in school. the secularism that you're crying for was founded by a muslim polymath named Ibn Rushd (Averroes). he's considered to be the founder and the father of secularism. and he's the one who actually brought secularism to europe.

be proud of who you are. hopefully when you get older your mind will mature, and you'll realize that it's not always about entertainment. have some values.

[BigDreamer]

Originally Posted by rasheed30

you also proposed a dangerous idea of giving iraqis all kinds of freedoms. we're a type of people (iraqis) who take everything to the extreme. if you give iraqis all these freedoms, all you're going to see is sex, drugs, alcohol, and the spread of many diseases. WE DON'T KNOW BALANCE. believe me we'll be worse than africa, and at that moment you'll know what backward really means.

doesn't that imply Iraqis will also take religion to the extreme

just following your logic btw ..

[rasheed30]

Originally Posted by BigDreamer

doesn't that imply Iraqis will also take religion to the extreme

just following your logic btw ..

yep you're right. that too!

example: tatbir

[Chounz]

Originally Posted by rasheed30

idk what people on this forum have against religion!!! but it looks like most of you live outside of iraq, probably in europe, and it's where they brainwashed you at school into thinking that you're backward people, to a level where they made you ashamed of yourself and who you are, and you find yourself constantly trying to change your identity. they taught you to hate yourself.

it's something that been done some many times before in history, i.e. african americans. watch this short clip by malcolm x:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRSgUTWffMQ
same thing is being done to muslims today!

look your not going to succeed by eliminating religion from your region. our region (the middle east) is where all religions have started. it where every major historical figure was born. it's where most empire and dynasties where founded. you cannot erase all of that. it's IMPOSSIBLE. there is too much history, heritage, and culture to erase.

so it's wiser of you to find a way to work with religion then to just dismiss it completely.

you also proposed a dangerous idea of giving iraqis all kinds of freedoms. we're a type of people (iraqis) who take everything to the extreme. if you give iraqis all these freedoms, all you're going to see is sex, drugs, alcohol, and the spread of many diseases. WE DON'T KNOW BALANCE. believe me we'll be worse than africa, and at that moment you'll know what backward really means.

you cannot let people have a say in everything. you must have a leader. it will be a mess without one.

lastly, here is something that they didn't teach you in school. the secularism that you're crying for was founded by a muslim polymath named Ibn Rushd (Averroes). he's considered to be the founder and the father of secularism. and he's the one who actually brought secularism to europe.

be proud of who you are. hopefully when you get older your mind will mature, and you'll realize that it's not always about entertainment. have some values.

First of all, Iraq is a multi-religious country. Thanks to your precious religious extremism, 90% of the Mandean population have fled the country (will probably become extinct) and so have 50% of the Christian population. Only secularism works in countries like ours, it's the only way to make sure minorities have their rights and freedom preserved. Like you said, the Middle East is where all religions started and yet it's unfortunately becoming the place where religions are also ending.

Second, LOL. I never said we should eliminate religion, I think you're associating me with people here who have made statements like that. But I believe people should have the CHOICE of whether or not to be religious. Religion shouldn't be ENFORCED. Religion is a great thing and I hope people in Iraq don't lose their religion, but religion is personal, it's something between you and God, that's it. It's nothing more than that. It shouldn't affect your mentality, way of thinking or the society. Take 2 examples of a girl:
You pray 5 times a day, fast, read quran regularly, have great faith and a great relationship with God (all your choice) and yet still live and enjoy a normal life to the fullest and go out at night and have fun. You dress how you like (not too slutty of course) and have close male friends and have a social life with them. This is the type of religion we should encourage.
Religion in Iraq, is being forced to wear a hijab/abaya because of society, being stuck in your room or at home 24/7 because your dad or relatives are afraid you might make eye contact with the male species, being sent off to study religious studies at university even though it has nothing to do with what you want to be in life, and not even being allowed to have hobbies such as sports because physical exercise for women is frowned upon in the country. Whereas the truth is if it were up to you you wouldn't be religious at all. THIS is the type of 'religion' we're trying to eliminate.

Now, which type of people would you rather have in your country? Genuinely religious people or ones that are being forced to put on a show?

[haiderpass]

rasheed, im at a loss for words on how to answer a post like that, one that is very demeaning, narrow minded, condescending and ignorant to an extreme, just unbelievable. You insult us for wanting to live in a secular society where the government represents the people and not a sect, but ask yourself this, if life is so wonderful in the middle-east, in nations with a religious theocracy, why is there such an influx of refugees every year from these nations to the 'evil' western nations who are trying to brainwash us.
ask yourself, where is life better, in the west or in a nation based on a religious ideology like Iran, saudi arabia, israel, etc. where discrimination, based on religion, ethnicity and identity occur on a daily basis. Its a fact that any government based on a single religion stops being a representative of the people and start being a representative of that religion.
now, just because we dont want religion in government, doesnt mean anyone here is anti-religion, quite the contrary, in many societies, and even in iraq to a certain extent, religion brings structure, morality, humility and honesty, which are great traits in a society, just not so in a government. so please dont assume you know everything about who we are, what we think, and that your somehow more patriotic than us here, on the contrary you, we appreciate iraq for all that it is, every ethnicity, every province, every ancestral heritage we share from the time of Mesopotamia till the current day, not just from 600AD. as for having a strong leader, please for fucks sake, stop with that bullshit, not just you several members here have repeated this, 'we need a strong leader' bullshit. the iraqi people ARE NOT sheep who need herding, they are human beings whose shoe is worth more than any 'strong' leader in the world. after years of wars, sanctions, genocide and blatant anarchy, they need someone who can help them move forwards peacefully, not a 'strong leader' who will grab them by the neck shove pointless crap down their throat like our previous ones. just look at the strong leaders, that the mid east has had, from mubarak, to bashar, to the late gawad saddam hussein, name one thing that any of these bastards did right by their people.

anyway, i went on a rant here, mainly cause i finished my last test and have three weeks of before exams , so hope i didnt offend anyone here, but please, dont pretend you know best for 33 million people, cause in all honesty, you dont.

[alshawi1234]

I guess not everyone understands the way a liberal/secular systems work. It basically ensures personal freedoms/beliefs. That does not equal eliminating religion or being anti-religion. As most of the members have already realized I'm probably one of the most conservative when it comes to religion. But I'd rather have a secular government that works for all Iraqis. There still would be moral laws which limit personal freedom of it is offensive towards any race or religion. Here in Canada we even have a "hate crime" law.. no one can go around yelling "I hate X people" etc.

[Spin Cycle]

Yes, secularism is separation of religion from government, it's not making the population atheistic.

[sheytanElKebir]

rasheed30, where do you live? Until a week ago I was living in Iraq.

[SumerianKing]

Chounz and haider, god bless you. Couldnt agree better. If you knew me well, you would know that I am a very religious person who prays 5 times a day and refrains from as much bad as I can. However a man who truly loves his religion would never want it to be disrespected in a way were it is mixed with politics. Religion is personal.
I think rasheed is making distinctions up again and believing them to be true. Never mind him, he thinks we are all khaleeji lool, and that our ancestors are not mesopitamian. No offence bro.

[rasheed30]

Originally Posted by Chounz

First of all, Iraq is a multi-religious country. Thanks to your precious religious extremism, 90% of the Mandean population have fled the country (will probably become extinct) and so have 50% of the Christian population. Only secularism works in countries like ours, it's the only way to make sure minorities have their rights and freedom preserved. Like you said, the Middle East is where all religions started and yet it's unfortunately becoming the place where religions are also ending.

Second, LOL. I never said we should eliminate religion, I think you're associating me with people here who have made statements like that. But I believe people should have the CHOICE of whether or not to be religious. Religion shouldn't be ENFORCED. Religion is a great thing and I hope people in Iraq don't lose their religion, but religion is personal, it's something between you and God, that's it. It's nothing more than that. It shouldn't affect your mentality, way of thinking or the society. Take 2 examples of a girl:
You pray 5 times a day, fast, read quran regularly, have great faith and a great relationship with God (all your choice) and yet still live and enjoy a normal life to the fullest and go out at night and have fun. You dress how you like (not too slutty of course) and have close male friends and have a social life with them. This is the type of religion we should encourage.
Religion in Iraq, is being forced to wear a hijab/abaya because of society, being stuck in your room or at home 24/7 because your dad or relatives are afraid you might make eye contact with the male species, being sent off to study religious studies at university even though it has nothing to do with what you want to be in life, and not even being allowed to have hobbies such as sports because physical exercise for women is frowned upon in the country. Whereas the truth is if it were up to you you wouldn't be religious at all. THIS is the type of 'religion' we're trying to eliminate.

Now, which type of people would you rather have in your country? Genuinely religious people or ones that are being forced to put on a show?

first of all Mandeans, are not original iraqis. they're from blad al sham. later they migrated to iraq, and it's was christians not muslims who gave them a hard time because they reject jesus peace be upon him.

like i said before. economy will build everything and solve everything. if everyone had the same good standards of living. the minorities in iraq will take care of themselves, and they wudn't need anyone to help them.

[rasheed30]

Originally Posted by haiderpass

rasheed, im at a loss for words on how to answer a post like that, one that is very demeaning, narrow minded, condescending and ignorant to an extreme, just unbelievable. You insult us for wanting to live in a secular society where the government represents the people and not a sect, but ask yourself this, if life is so wonderful in the middle-east, in nations with a religious theocracy, why is there such an influx of refugees every year from these nations to the 'evil' western nations who are trying to brainwash us.
ask yourself, where is life better, in the west or in a nation based on a religious ideology like Iran, saudi arabia, israel, etc. where discrimination, based on religion, ethnicity and identity occur on a daily basis. Its a fact that any government based on a single religion stops being a representative of the people and start being a representative of that religion.
now, just because we dont want religion in government, doesnt mean anyone here is anti-religion, quite the contrary, in many societies, and even in iraq to a certain extent, religion brings structure, morality, humility and honesty, which are great traits in a society, just not so in a government. so please dont assume you know everything about who we are, what we think, and that your somehow more patriotic than us here, on the contrary you, we appreciate iraq for all that it is, every ethnicity, every province, every ancestral heritage we share from the time of Mesopotamia till the current day, not just from 600AD. as for having a strong leader, please for fucks sake, stop with that bullshit, not just you several members here have repeated this, 'we need a strong leader' bullshit. the iraqi people ARE NOT sheep who need herding, they are human beings whose shoe is worth more than any 'strong' leader in the world. after years of wars, sanctions, genocide and blatant anarchy, they need someone who can help them move forwards peacefully, not a 'strong leader' who will grab them by the neck shove pointless crap down their throat like our previous ones. just look at the strong leaders, that the mid east has had, from mubarak, to bashar, to the late gawad saddam hussein, name one thing that any of these bastards did right by their people.

anyway, i went on a rant here, mainly cause i finished my last test and have three weeks of before exams , so hope i didnt offend anyone here, but please, dont pretend you know best for 33 million people, cause in all honesty, you dont.

1.people migrate to the west to find jobs (so it's about the money).

2.are you saying that there is no discrimination towards muslims/arabs in the west?

3. there is no government in the world that represent all of it's people, actually most government represent a VERY SAMLL portion of the population. the difference is, they have strong laws. thats it.

4. yes you do need a leader. not matter what your views are.

5. as for those mid east dictators that you mentioned. guess who was supporting them and funding them?

6.i don't know best. i was just explaining my view regarding this.

[rasheed30]

Originally Posted by SumerianKing

Chounz and haider, god bless you. Couldnt agree better. If you knew me well, you would know that I am a very religious person who prays 5 times a day and refrains from as much bad as I can. However a man who truly loves his religion would never want it to be disrespected in a way were it is mixed with politics. Religion is personal.
I think rasheed is making distinctions up again and believing them to be true. Never mind him, he thinks we are all khaleeji lool, and that our ancestors are not mesopitamian. No offence bro.

yea sorry i forgot. we're 100% mesopitamian

[rasheed30]

Originally Posted by sheytanElKebir

rasheed30, where do you live? Until a week ago I was living in Iraq.

usa