Tram-Trains Coming to the UK!

[Cherguevara]

Originally Posted by nerd

I might add the observation that current peak-period commuter travel along the Bolton line is probably too great for ready conversion to tram-trian. If you inlclude boarders from stations beyond Bolton on the Blackburn and Preston lines (as would seem logical), then total peak perdiod week-day boarders are around 3,000. Even if we allow that all services will be provided by doubles, that implies a need for more than 5 tph along this route. Which suggest either a dedicated tram, or continued heavy rail provision.

Maybe I'm betraying my ignorance (I don't know much about the services through Bolton) but wouldn't it be possible to recast those services so that there are fewer, longer services from beyond Bolton (say 1 tph Preston and Blackburn each) and use the freed up capacity for a more intensive Bolton-Manc service? Surely long distance commuter traffic doesn't need to be very regular compared to 'metro-like' services?

[nerd]

Originally Posted by Cherguevara

Maybe I'm betraying my ignorance (I don't know much about the services through Bolton) but wouldn't it be possible to recast those services so that there are fewer, longer services from beyond Bolton (say 1 tph Preston and Blackburn each) and use the freed up capacity for a more intensive Bolton-Manc service? Surely long distance commuter traffic doesn't need to be very regular compared to 'metro-like' services?

I think the problem is that there are big flows into Manc from the stops the other side of Bolton - Lostock, Horwich, Blackrod, Bromely Cross - and then further on to Chorley, Leyland and Darwen. The best way to clear more space for Bolton trains would probably be to take the Wigan trains off the choke-point at Salford Crescent.

[Jon10]

Daily Telegraph: "Britain's first tram trains set to run"



"Britain’s first continental style “tram train” network has been approved by the Government, with the service beginning in 2015."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...et-to-run.html
.

[SO143]

britain's first tram? so the ones running in croydon are the tram trains?

[soupçon]

What's Croydon got to do with anything?

[sentinel100]

Originally Posted by SO143

britain's first tram? so the ones running in croydon are the tram trains?

No, just trams.

[Steel City Suburb]

Worried about the frequency being too low to tempt people over, the route has the potential to be very well used.

[WatcherZero]

I would think its partially a cost vs number of vehicles thing and partially so they can interleave the heavy freight paths ala T&W.

[david_gla]

Hopefully tram-trains to Glasgow Airport will be next!

[Kolothos]

Tram-Trains would benefit Greater Glasgow in a very profound way I reckon.

Transport Scotland have that ''Glasgow Light Rail/Metro System'' recommendation as part of their proposals for the West of Scotland rail enhancements. Tram-Trains would not only just open up the already expansive electric rail network to higher density areas of the conurbation that it doesn't already serve, but they'd pretty much open up the potential for expansion and integration with the Subway system, essentially expanding the Subway in one fell swoop, especially with all those miles of abandoned tunnels under the city. Glasgow has the potential to have a transport system which shines above other similar sized cities like Manchester or Liverpool.

Glasgow should really look at German Stadtbahn systems for inspiration, it would absolutely transform the city, squeezing all of the potential from the rail network and encouraging growth.

So yes. Tram-Trains all the way But we have to remember that the Glasgow Airport link would not be the doing of the UK Government. They are not responsible for public transport north of the border, Transport Scotland are.

[Rapidtransitman]

@ Kolothos

Do you have any links or sources on the Glasgow abandonned tunnels? Are they railway tunnels?

[traffordboy]

I thought glasgows subway was built to a tiny loading gauge, far smaller than standard rail? How could you run trams down into it, they'd be too big!!

[Kolothos]

@ Rapidtransitman - I don't have any links on hand, I'll try to dig some out from the Glasgow Metro Area forum tomorrow. But yes, they are abandoned railway tunnels, left behind from decades ago. They are all subsurface cut/cover tunnels built in the Victorian times, not too dissimilar from the older stretches of the London Underground. Parts of these tunnels are still in use (A portion running East-West through Queen Street Station) and some parts were reinstated during the last big modernisation project of Glasgow's Urban Transport system (A parallel portion running East-West through Central Station). There are considerable stretches which still remain unused which run under the West-End and East-End of the city which would be very very useful if we ever embarked on a Subway extension or Light Rail system.

@ traffordboy - The Glasgow Subway does indeed run on a smaller than usual gauge, and are Glasgow's only railway ''tubes''. The Subway was constructed in the latter part of the 19th century, and it's the only deep line we have, due to Glasgow's geology, which makes it very difficult to bore tunnels through, which is why the tunnels are so narrow. The tunnels which I refer to are ones which were build in the mid-1800's, and are subsurface tunnels which were independent from the Glasgow Subway. Glasgow has a huge network of subsurface/deep cut suburban railway lines, the largest such urban railway system in the UK outside of London, and there are many abandoned stretches of it. In London, these sorts of lines were eventually incorporated into the Underground, but in Glasgow, these remained separate, and eventually closed due to a lack of profitability. As I said above, Glasgow has two 'other' functional underground lines running under the city centre, but they are part of the National Rail network rather than the Glasgow Subway.

So yeah, I don't mean that Tram-Trains should run in the existing Subway tunnels. What I mean by integrating it with the Subway is by treating it as the same system, but as separate lines, making use of the abandoned railway tunnels.

[Jon10]

Kolothos: What has happened to the Glasgow Crossrail proposals (and perhaps you can describe them)?

[Kolothos]

Glasgow Crossrail had two proposals. The first of those was to build a deep bored tunnel running under the City Centre and running under Central and Queen Street, thus allowing through services to the north and a proper link between the two stations.



The more recent proposal by the SPT involved re-instating a disused (for passengers at least) line that runs on a viaduct into the City Centre and links up to the low level line which passes under Queen Street. The plan simply wasn't taken up by the government.



Transport Scotland have indicated that they don't think it would bring as much benefit as SPT claim, so that is one of the reasons. I speculate that the line is probably part of Transport Scotland's ''Glasgow Metro/Light Rail'' recommendation. The original deep bored tunnel idea is actually one of the recommendations that Transport Scotland has made, and it comes in the form of ''..and/or City Centre tunnel and/or Glasgow Metro..'' in the report.

Of course, I wouldn't take that report as a clear indication that any of these projects will be undertaken. However there are a lot of things that are in the report that are being implemented right now, like the Edinburgh-Glasgow Rail Improvement Programme, and the highest profile one being the new Forth crossing.

The brief summary of the Glasgow recommendations are in ''Project 24'' near the end of this PDF: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/...ember_2008.pdf

[R.K.Teck]

Originally Posted by Rapidtransitman

@ Kolothos

Do you have any links or sources on the Glasgow abandonned tunnels? Are they railway tunnels?

There are loads of disused embankments and tunnels in the West end to play with, and many more in the East end but I don't have any diagrams made up for the East. I'll make some up and post them some time this week though!

West Glasgow's disused rail network:



Black: current suburban heavy rail lines and stations.
Red: disused heavy rail tunnels.
Blue: disused heavy rail embankments/cuttings ect.

See the two red squares; starting at the top square, Maryhill, the Strathclyde Tram was going to run on the disused line between these points before going onto the roads into the City Centre and beyond! But for a stupid piece of ancient legislation Glasgow would have built this in the 90s:

[Kolothos]

What a great shame about the Strathclyde Tram.. If it hadn't been for those deregulated bus companies, we very well could have had a very well used and liked piece of infrastructure, it could have tidied the place up in a few different areas, and it would have probably been expanded by now. And now the whole Edinburgh experience with trams has probably soured the whole tram 'thingwae' in the eyes of most people.

Oh well... One can only dream..

[R.K.Teck]

It's enfuriating! Living right on the route of that Clyde Tram up at Kirklee. Bus companies are supposed to be providing a service for the people, yet they took that tram service away from us. It would have been likely that First would have ended up getting the rights to run the tram anyway... why were they even allowed a say in the matter anyway? Council should have put it to a public vote, everyone would have loved a tram before Edinburgh's fiasco.

[Leeds No.1]

People would feel quite a lot more connected with a tram, but I'd rather see the money going into re-opening some of those disused rail lines; either as Subway or heavy rail.

[Kolothos]

The thing is though, doing that gives very little room for expansion. Glasgow's geology makes tunneling more expensive that it does in other places (harder rock, hundreds of abandoned mineshafts..). Having a Tram-Train system in place allows us to link up areas which have no rail connection, or areas which could do with closer and more frequent rail services, to the main heavy rail network. So the majority of the system would run as normal, but would run at street level in some outer-suburbs and towns.

For example, a simple short extension of the railway line from East Kilbride station into EK town centre by use of a short tram-train line would be very beneficial.