Scottish Politics

[Ultima]

Originally Posted by Due East

An Englishman..

At an SNP event

Crivens. He must be an infiltrator seeing what the brave Alec was planning.




You really hate the English Ultima - what have they ever done to you.

!!!

Oh, Due East, you've gotten all crazy again! I have English family, Uni pals and colleagues. Dry your eyes, mate.

[Ultima]

Originally Posted by hifive605

Except of course, for most Scots, the UK IS THEIR COUNTRY as well as Scotland - they're open-minded and inclusive you see, and because they care about the whole of Britain, (instead of just the top bit) they participate in a political union with a common Parliament, sharing sovereignty, co-operating, pooling resources and helping each other. This is how they get along - something which the SNP seeks to end.

Yes, because countries can't get along unless they are in political union . And yes, the UK is so inclusive and open minded, what with the vast opposition to gay marriage, the fervent anti-immigration policies, the hate of the EU (independence from the EU anyone...?) and the 1,000,000+ voters south of the border who voted for the BNP and sent Nick Griffin to represent them in the European parliament. Not to mention privitisation of the police force and health service and the multi-millionaire political class who control all seats of power in the country - that's so inclusive above all else! Pull the other one!

[Chris99]

Originally Posted by hifive605

Except of course, for most Scots, the UK IS THEIR COUNTRY as well as Scotland - they're open-minded and inclusive you see, and because they care about the whole of Britain, (instead of just the top bit) they participate in a political union with a common Parliament, sharing sovereignty, co-operating, pooling resources and helping each other. This is how they get along - something which the SNP seeks to end.

We can cooperate and help each other without giving up sovereignty. I notice you use talk about shared sovereignty but in reality it's not an equal partnership. Uk Ministers rarely put Scotland's interests first, an independent Scottish Govt always will.

[hifive605]

Originally Posted by Ultima

Yes, because countries can't get along unless they are in political union . And yes, the UK is so inclusive and open minded, what with the vast opposition to gay marriage, the fervent anti-immigration policies, the hate of the EU (independence from the EU anyone...?) and the 1,000,000+ voters south of the border who voted for the BNP and sent Nick Griffin to represent them in the European parliament. Not to mention privitisation of the police force and health service and the multi-millionaire political class who control all seats of power in the country - that's so inclusive above all else! Pull the other one!

Your rant charactertures a minority, right-wing, Tory elite based almost exclusively in London and the Home Counties.

The North of England, the Midlands, Wales - in fact everywhere in Britain where normal, working people live has political leanings in line with the majority in Scotland - but you see England as nothing more than a homogenous, Tory-stooge, so you think the next best thing is to split the UK

[Ultima]

Originally Posted by hifive605

Your rant charactertures a minority, right-wing, Tory elite based almost exclusively in London and the Home Counties.

The North of England, the Midlands, Wales - in fact everywhere in Britain where normal, working people live has political leanings in line with the majority in Scotland - but you see England as nothing more than a homogenous, Tory-stooge, so you think the next best thing is to split the UK

Sure. Any other silly rubbish you would like to make up about me to make yourself feel better? Scotland can handle spending its own tax money as shocking as this seems to you!

[hifive605]

Originally Posted by Chris99

We can cooperate and help each other without giving up sovereignty. I notice you use talk about shared sovereignty but in reality it's not an equal partnership. Uk Ministers rarely put Scotland's interests first, an independent Scottish Govt always will.

How is it not an equal partnership? The average Scot is as democratically represented as another person in Britain. In fact the average Scot the OVER- represented, having more MP's per head than England at the UK level plus a dedicated Parliament of their own at Holyrood.

The UK Parliament puts the UK's interests first, Scotland in part of the UK.. follow? if you think Scotland's interests are always diametrically opposed to the rest of the UK's you must have a serious persecution complex.

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Originally Posted by hifive605

if you think Scotland's interests are always diametrically opposed to the rest of the UK's you must have a serious persecution complex.

Welcome to the world of the Scum Nats....

[Ultima]

We have some very upset new members on the Scottish politics board haha!

[NorthLimitation]

Originally Posted by Due East

Your ducking the point yet again.

You claim to want a Scotland that isn't interfered with by people that don't live here. And yet somehow you don't see the contradiction in having people who haven't lived here in donkeys spearheading a campaign for independence.

It seems the SNP pick and choose in this area - we don't want to give Scots who have been living in London for 6 months through work a say, but they will have someone who lived in Scotland 50 years ago (and who can't vote) as our figurehead.

I see what you're saying, but I'd argue that you're also picking and choosing. Firstly, you're confirming the SNP's argument somewhat in that neither Sean Connery (I assume that is whom you are referring) nor a Scot living in London will be able to vote in the referendum. Sean is not resident in Scotland and is thus not on the voting register, much like a Scottish person living in London. However, both are free to become involved in the debate and will be by implication; many of those that the SNP will be debating against will not be able to vote in the referendum. I've never seen the SNP suggest that Miliband or Cameron should not be involved in the debate and they've never lived in Scotland (to my knowledge, which is limited regarding their living arrangements to be honest). There is a world of difference between rejecting outside interference and rejecting actual debate - the United Kingdom is a sovereign nation which embodies absolute Parliamentary supremacy, yet it does not curl away from external influence, comment and debate.

It's an interesting little identity crisis that many folk in Scotland are having. To most Scots, the United Kingdom and Scotland are their countries, to some only the United Kingdom is their country and to others only Scotland. But to most Scots, Scotland is more of their country than the United Kingdom. Ultimately selfish, but it is of course a part of the human condition that we are not entirely selfless beings and tend to prune the borders of our identity and lives in order to protect or improve the core. Most people in Scotland will care about the United Kingdom, indeed I'd argue that many nationalists do too, but it is in Scotland that their main interests lie. It's in this that the nationalists are being tactical, the Unionists need to promote the UK without insulting Scotland, whereas the Nationalists have more opportunity to trash their opponents.

They've got their date and this will likely make the scales rather balanced in that the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives will be all too willing attack oneanother where possible before the election. An interesting two years to come without a doubt, there will be fuck ups from the SNP I'm sure.

[Jeanbonnau]

I have a question : why is a referendum necessary to declare independence for Scotland? The Scottish parliament could simply vote and declare independence, considering that he fairly represents the people.

I think that independence of Scotland is written in history and will occur in any case. I am also confident in a fair-play reaction of the English people who had bad experiences with former independence processes, for instance the Irish one.

To conclude, a detail of the French-Scottish history: when De Gaulle was in London during WWII, preparing French forces to join allied armies for reconquest, he asked Churchill - who accepted - to put French forces under the order of Scottish officers.

[hifive605]

Originally Posted by Jeanbonnau

I have a question : why is a referendum necessary to declare independence for Scotland? The Scottish parliament could simply vote and declare independence, considering that he fairly represents the people.

I think that independence of Scotland is written in history and will occur in any case. I am also confident in a fair-play reaction of the English people who had bad experiences with former independence processes, for instance the Irish one.

To conclude, a detail of the French-Scottish history: when De Gaulle was in London during WWII, preparing French forces to join allied armies for reconquest, he asked Churchill - who accepted - to put French forces under the order of Scottish officers.

eeeerrrr, because you cant let 100 biased, transient politicians make the most important political decision ever for 5 million people perhaps? also, a Charles de Gaulle reference is meant to help your point?

[Chris99]

Originally Posted by Jeanbonnau

I have a question : why is a referendum necessary to declare independence for Scotland? The Scottish parliament could simply vote and declare independence, considering that he fairly represents the people.
.

Governments are elected on a range of issues so its right and proper that the constitutional future of the country is decided by the voters in a referendum.

[Chris99]

Originally Posted by hifive605

How is it not an equal partnership? The average Scot is as democratically represented as another person in Britain. In fact the average Scot the OVER- represented, having more MP's per head than England at the UK level plus a dedicated Parliament of their own at Holyrood.

The UK Parliament puts the UK's interests first, Scotland in part of the UK.. follow? if you think Scotland's interests are always diametrically opposed to the rest of the UK's you must have a serious persecution complex.

I don't think Scotland is being persecuted, nor do I think that Scotland's interests are always diametrically opposed to the rest of the UK's. However, when our interests do differ, Scotland, with 8% of the UK population, is always going to have minimal influence on UK Govt policy. A case in point would be reducing subsidies for wind power in favour of nuclear which is currently being considered by the UK Govt, even though it would damage Scotland's renewables industry.

[Ultima]

The fact that Scottish individuals can have a small measure of influence within the London dominated Westminster system does not mean that Scotland is better off in the Union, or that ANY region of the UK outside of London is better off in the Union. Scotland is its own country, get a grip and let it spend its own taxes.

[Due East]

Originally Posted by NorthLimitation

I see what you're saying, but I'd argue that you're also picking and choosing. Firstly, you're confirming the SNP's argument somewhat in that neither Sean Connery (I assume that is whom you are referring) nor a Scot living in London will be able to vote in the referendum. Sean is not resident in Scotland and is thus not on the voting register, much like a Scottish person living in London. However, both are free to become involved in the debate and will be by implication; many of those that the SNP will be debating against will not be able to vote in the referendum. I've never seen the SNP suggest that Miliband or Cameron should not be involved in the debate and they've never lived in Scotland (to my knowledge, which is limited regarding their living arrangements to be honest). There is a world of difference between rejecting outside interference and rejecting actual debate - the United Kingdom is a sovereign nation which embodies absolute Parliamentary supremacy, yet it does not curl away from external influence, comment and debate.

It's an interesting little identity crisis that many folk in Scotland are having. To most Scots, the United Kingdom and Scotland are their countries, to some only the United Kingdom is their country and to others only Scotland. But to most Scots, Scotland is more of their country than the United Kingdom. Ultimately selfish, but it is of course a part of the human condition that we are not entirely selfless beings and tend to prune the borders of our identity and lives in order to protect or improve the core. Most people in Scotland will care about the United Kingdom, indeed I'd argue that many nationalists do too, but it is in Scotland that their main interests lie. It's in this that the nationalists are being tactical, the Unionists need to promote the UK without insulting Scotland, whereas the Nationalists have more opportunity to trash their opponents.

They've got their date and this will likely make the scales rather balanced in that the Lib Dems, Labour and Conservatives will be all too willing attack oneanother where possible before the election. An interesting two years to come without a doubt, there will be fuck ups from the SNP I'm sure.

I agree broadly with this Northlimitation, but to answer your point, its slightly galling to have these grand figures enter a debate and tell us whats best for us when thats exactly what the SNP criticise in others.

I just think the SNP made a major strategic flaw by shipping in glitzy names who have fuck all respect or knowledge about Scottish reality to comment accurately.

The real strength behind the SNPs narrative would have been talking up real life business and social success stories (of which they have a reasonable amount to draw on). Instead they have brought in superstars who have no concept of Scottish life. None whatsoever. As someone who has lived abroad for several years, i'm well aware of the way absence from Scotland can make you romanticise aspects of our country and culture. When you are living amongst it day in day out however, opinions and beliefs change - and rightly so.

Connery in particular is one of my favourite actors, but he has such an aversion to paying his taxes fairly to this country that i think he has lost his legitimacy to be taken seriously in political debate. Pay your taxes and have a stake in the country and then i'll take you seriously. Stay in a tax haven and visit once every 5 years....I'm sorry, but your opinion is considerably diminished.

The SNP event was a cringefest. No two ways about it. The only thing missing were Runrig. Its such a narrow narrow vision of Scotland that ultimately I think it undersells the SNPs vision which on paper is far grander than the shortbread pish they seem to always resort to.

[M_Riaz]

[Squirrelking]

Originally Posted by Ultima

Yes, because countries can't get along unless they are in political union . And yes, the UK is so inclusive and open minded, what with the vast opposition to gay marriage, the fervent anti-immigration policies, the hate of the EU (independence from the EU anyone...?) and the 1,000,000+ voters south of the border who voted for the BNP and sent Nick Griffin to represent them in the European parliament. Not to mention privitisation of the police force and health service and the multi-millionaire political class who control all seats of power in the country - that's so inclusive above all else! Pull the other one!

Gay marriage - no more so opposed than in Scotland. Same muppets shouting about it as in England and Wales.

Anti-immigration - if you think Scots are lovely all embracing people then perhaps you need to get out more. I see it every day and it's a national embarrassment.

EU - same again, mostly down to the complete miseducation of the population by tabloids and the political class. See also human rights and health and safety.

BNP - was also voted for in Scotland. They were standing in at least North Ayrshire at the last EU elections.

Police force and health care - thankfully we are buffered from this by devolution though what the effects of a single police force and fire service will be remain to be seen (but that's a different issue).

Multi-millionaire political class - pretty much universal barring perhaps SSP and other minority socialist parties. Not all of them but you find them everywhere across the political spectrum.

[Hendycfc]

who has signed the declaration at http://www.yesscotland.net/declaration

[Chris99]

Originally Posted by Hendycfc

who has signed the declaration at http://www.yesscotland.net/declaration

Cheers for the link.

[Quirinalian]

Originally Posted by Ultima

Yes, because countries can't get along unless they are in political union

It certainly helps. As has been constantly said about the EU, it has kept Europe safer and more united since the Second World War.

And yes, the UK is so inclusive and open minded, what with the vast opposition to gay marriage, the fervent anti-immigration policies, the hate of the EU (independence from the EU anyone...?) and the 1,000,000+ voters south of the border who voted for the BNP and sent Nick Griffin to represent them in the European parliament. Not to mention privitisation of the police force and health service and the multi-millionaire political class who control all seats of power in the country - that's so inclusive above all else! Pull the other one!

You're somewhat out of step with the SNP on this one, whose official line is that nationalism isn't about saying you're better than other nations. Ranting about the English is quite ludicrous, especially on issues of race: Scotland, for example, has had a fraction of the immigration that England has and thus a fraction of the problems caused when cultures collide less successfully.

Originally Posted by Chris99

We can cooperate and help each other without giving up sovereignty. I notice you use talk about shared sovereignty but in reality it's not an equal partnership. Uk Ministers rarely put Scotland's interests first, an independent Scottish Govt always will.

States put the national interest first. This involves equal status of all citizens. Sometimes some people won't like the decisions they make. This would happen both in a United Kingdom and an independent Scotland