The Future of the Gardiner Expressway

[Innsertnamehere]

I think theres something like that in new york as well.

[Diesel_Power]

Would burying the Gardiner express really be as expensive or difficult as Boston's Big Dig?

The Big Dig was more than just burying the highway. They also built an underwater highway connection to the city's airport and replaced a bridge.

Fast forward to 5:45 in this video to see what I'm talking about.


All we need to do is bury elevated section of the Gardiner Express. No replacing bridges or building roads to the airport. No tunnels under water.

[icemachine]

Well the just about the entire length of a tunneled Gardiner replacement would be below the Lake Ontario waterline so the tunnel design would need to account for that, although much would depend on the soil mechanics, as I understand most of the land between Front Street and the lake is infill.

A tunnel between Jameson and Cherry would be about 1km longer than Boston's Central Artery although it would presumably surface before crossing the Don so the only technically difficult sections would be ramps to the surface in the core section and supporting the Queens Quay Streetcar tunnel

[Frankled]

Originally Posted by icemachine

Well the just about the entire length of a tunneled Gardiner replacement would be below the Lake Ontario waterline so the tunnel design would need to account for that, although much would depend on the soil mechanics, as I understand most of the land between Front Street and the lake is infill.

A tunnel between Jameson and Cherry would be about 1km longer than Boston's Central Artery although it would presumably surface before crossing the Don so the only technically difficult sections would be ramps to the surface in the core section and supporting the Queens Quay Streetcar tunnel

Isn't the Bay Street tunnel just under street level? Look at how much water gets into that thing.

[dime]

A majority of Toronto-area residents back lakeshore tunnel toll road, poll shows

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2444921/

i think its fine the way it is if anything add another tax on gas and coerce people to use public transit
Money should be put in public transit

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Diesel_Power

No tunnels under water.

What makes you think that?

Nearly the entire buried gardiner would be below the water level.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by dime

A majority of Toronto-area residents back lakeshore tunnel toll road, poll shows

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2444921/

i think its fine the way it is if anything add another tax on gas and coerce people to use public transit
Money should be put in public transit

I don't find the present situation tenable at all and would gladly have my taxes go up to build a tunnel under the Gardiner. It's a pleasant surprise to find out that the majority of GTA'ers (77% in the city/80% in the 905) feel the same way. Maybe this will finally get done.

[monkeyronin]

Thats not burying the Gardiner Expressway, thats building another, tolled freeway underneath it. Which is a completely retarded idea. For the cost of doing that we could build subway line much longer, which would of course have a much higher capacity than any freeway ever could.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by monkeyronin

Thats not burying the Gardiner Expressway, thats building another, tolled freeway underneath it. Which is a completely retarded idea.

If the tolled tunnel is big enough, we could get rid of the Gardiner so it would be tantamount to 'burying the Gardiner'. Retarded? I guess 80% of the people in the GTA are retarded then. What do you care? You don't have to ride on it if you don't want to.

A nice tolled tunnel 5 lanes in each direction should do the trick.

[monkeyronin]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Retarded? I guess 80% of the people in the GTA are retarded then.

Are 80% retarded? No. Do 80% have no concept of road & transit planning and the costs involved and therefore support absurd ideas? Seems that way.

[spearhead]

After you taxpayers spent millions of dollars to build this stretch of highway, now you just wanna destroy it? Keep it. It just need reinforcement and upgrading the foundation/surface as well to have a smoother ride.

If we bury it, we will be spending more money i guess, another taxes to ba paid to fund such constructions, then it may also cause more traffic jams. The tunnel itself cannot handle a wider multiple lanes because of the safety concern of the foundation of a tunnel. Plus, if we go tunnel, there will be no more scenery.

[spearhead]

Originally Posted by isaidso

If the tolled tunnel is big enough, we could get rid of the Gardiner so it would be tantamount to 'burying the Gardiner'. Retarded? I guess 80% of the people in the GTA are retarded then. What do you care? You don't have to ride on it if you don't want to.

A nice tolled tunnel 5 lanes in each direction should do the trick.

I haven't seen any tunnels with 5 lanes on each way. Where can we find one?

You know the wider we build a tunnel, the chances of collapsing is greater. Unless maybe if we put reinforced row of support pillars in every 2 lanes. But still it may cause more money to build, enough to build more mass rail transit around the GTA, and longer rail line like what monkeyronin said.

[Epi]

It IS possible, but I would only support it if it were specifically planned to be paid for by tolls from the start, and we have private companies building this and taking on the risk.

For instance in Tokyo they are building a huge underground ring road which is fully funded by tolls. But then again the Japanese are used to paying huge tolls for highways and this will probably be expensive.

I feel if we do this in Toronto, no matter the intentions, if it is even vaguely 'public', there will be pressures to use taxpayer money to reduce tolls, or perhaps it just goes highly above it's budget. Either way a losing proposition.

[AndrewJM3D]

Originally Posted by spearhead

After you taxpayers spent millions of dollars to build this stretch of highway, now you just wanna destroy it? Keep it. It just need reinforcement and upgrading the foundation/surface as well to have a smoother ride.

If we bury it, we will be spending more money i guess, another taxes to ba paid to fund such constructions, then it may also cause more traffic jams. The tunnel itself cannot handle a wider multiple lanes because of the safety concern of the foundation of a tunnel. Plus, if we go tunnel, there will be no more scenery.

It was built almost 60 years ago, the city has changed drastically since it was first put in place. Also who wants more lanes? That doesn't encourage people to use transit but only creates more traffic headaches, smog, and congestion in feeder streets. Look at the 401.

[spearhead]

Actually tolled highways are the way to go using the Build-Operate-Transfer scheme (project financing) and it is a very popular in many asian countries, wherein a private entity receives a concession from the private or public sector to finance, design, construct, and operate a facility stated in the concession contract. This enables the project proponent to recover its investment, operating and maintenance expenses in the project before the government could own it after 20-25 yrs depending on the agreement.

[ChrisJudd83]

It's gotten to the point where it really needs to be dismantled and buried. it is now a dangerous situation and as someone planning to visit Toronto in the winter I would feel uneasy walking under it. Lake shore should be fixed up and used by local traffic while heavy vehicles can use the tunnel. A light rail and green space can replace the dismantled gardiner. It's something that really needs to be done and not a day too soon

[VHSLE CRUISER]

Originally Posted by monkeyronin

Um...the Big Dig was 5.6 km.

I think he means the Big Dig as a whole project not just the tunnel.

[ssiguy2]

The problem is that Toronto has never had a transportation plan for the Gardiner. The ussual "just ignore it and leave it for the next council" operative has been the theme of the day for the last 50 years. It would be nearly impossible to tunnel under the Gardiner now because the allowed CityPlace and every condo application available to line right up against the highway with absolutely no contingency for a potential removal or tunnel of the Gardiner.

I really don't see why the Gardiner has to be tunnelled from Humber to the DVP anyway. This is the first time I've ever heard of a proposal to tunnel that far as ussually the conversation is a tunnel from Spadina to the DVP which itself is a waste of money.

If Toronto city council had any balls, which they have lacked for 40 years, they would simply have the tolls only apply to people who do NOT reside in the city. I stated this before, just have a $50 decal for sale for all Torontonians and then toll the DVP/Gardiner and the decal negates the toll.

In other words, let the 905ers pay for it.

Anyway we all know this will go no where. By 2018 Toronto will be finishing up it's 3rd enviornmental review and beginning the first round of public consultations so they can finish the recommendation that will go for review before the first reading at City Hall where they will vote to send back a review panel. Meanwhile, Toronto will be forced to spend the minimum $500 on the Gardiner just to keep it from falling down.

[AndrewJM3D]

And each year the cost to do what one day must be done will grow in size. Now is the time. The Gardiner was a mistake and almost everybody knows sooner or later it must come down. Yes it may cost more then the Big Dig but the longer we wait the more costly it becomes. I'll miss the view but the pay off will be worth it.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by spearhead

I haven't seen any tunnels with 5 lanes on each way. Where can we find one?

You know the wider we build a tunnel, the chances of collapsing is greater.

We have a discipline called civil engineering that deals with things like that.