Gibraltar dispute heats up!

[jesarm]

Do you accepted a spanish colony in south england? yes it is tinny , but it causes a big and big ecologic and economic problem every year
there are big diferents between enclaves and colonies, spain returened all the colonies in asia and america like england , Gibraltar´s status is recognise as the only colony in Europe, despite that, if Gibraltareños want to be english ,in my opinion it must to respect, but they have to accept the same rights and rules like any other european mediterranean city , I think problems of citizens are more important that territories matters

[Hoskins]

Originally Posted by jesarm

yes it is tinny , but it causes a big and big ecologic and economic problem every year

No it doesn't.

[gothicform]

there are big diferents between enclaves and colonies

the difference between an enclave and a colony is that britain has never actually annexed gibraltar as part of the united kingdom but spain annexed its colonies so they are legally part of spain. it is instead "a british overseas territory". the funny thing is if we annexed it (or the falklands) then the problem of it being a colony would go and it would legally become part of the united kingdom.

[chchdesign]

I fail to see how this is even in dispute. Spain simply has no leg to stand on re Gibraltar.
It is a British overseas territory. An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar from Spain in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain "in perpetuity" under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. If you fight a war and lose and then sign a treaty, you have to live with that, end of story.
As I just said, Gibraltar was ceded to Britain "in perpetuity". How does anyone have difficulty understanding the meaning of that? In perpetuity means indefinite, without end, forever. What part of that does Spain not understand?
Not to mention in a referendum held in 2002, Gibraltarians rejected by an overwhelming majority (99%) a proposal of shared sovereignty with Spain. Also all local political parties oppose any transfer of sovereignty to Spain under any circumstances, instead supporting self-determination. The main UK opposition parties also support this policy and it is UK Government policy not to engage in talks about the sovereignty of Gibraltar without the consent of the people of Gibraltar. Gibraltar is British, not Spanish. Its time Spain accepted reality.

[Atomicus]

Originally Posted by chchdesign

I fail to see how this is even in dispute. Spain simply has no leg to stand on re Gibraltar.
It is a British overseas territory. An Anglo-Dutch force captured Gibraltar from Spain in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession. The territory was subsequently ceded to Britain "in perpetuity" under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. If you fight a war and lose and then sign a treaty, you have to live with that, end of story.
As I just said, Gibraltar was ceded to Britain "in perpetuity". How does anyone have difficulty understanding the meaning of that? In perpetuity means indefinite, without end, forever. What part of that does Spain not understand?
Not to mention in a referendum held in 2002, Gibraltarians rejected by an overwhelming majority (99%) a proposal of shared sovereignty with Spain. Also all local political parties oppose any transfer of sovereignty to Spain under any circumstances, instead supporting self-determination. The main UK opposition parties also support this policy and it is UK Government policy not to engage in talks about the sovereignty of Gibraltar without the consent of the people of Gibraltar. Gibraltar is British, not Spanish. Its time Spain accepted reality.

Perhaps it is my terrible English (I sincerely apologyze for my English) but I think It's been said several times already that the Spanish problems and recent disputes upon Gibraltar have been about certain actions carried out by Gibraltar. Our requests and complaints were not about the Gibraltar sovereignty.

I don't think it is nice that Gibraltar authorities arrest Spanish policemen that go after smugglers; when Gibraltar builds stuff in waters or land that don't belong to them; or when they violate our airspace or even beaches during military drills.

When Gibraltar perform such things, that make Spain to react. It's sad your tabloids interpretate that as that we want to take Gibraltar back to deviate attention, but the reality is that most of Spaniards (minus some random politicians and people) have no problem with Gibraltar being British.

I personally want that to be so as long as that's what people from Gibraltar want. I consider the UK and all their oversea territories as "friends", our rivalry with the UK is usually friendly and related to Formula 1 or soccer. You guys come here and spend your money and many Spaniards go there to learn English.

[alserrod]

As far as I know, the sea territory (and obviously the air territory) is pointed following the international agreements. This is... obviously when "possible", the "national waters" before entering "international waters" is respected, but when the strech is narrow (as happens between Gibraltar and Algeciras or Spain-Morocco in the strait, there are international agreements.

Inside the national water it goes like they should have customs... only you can enter if allowed. And, as example, going there for a plane or just fishing is restricted and controlled by national authorities (and police can arrest someone in national waters but not in international waters).

Several years ago, in an international treaty, Gibraltar allowed Spanish fishers to enter inside their territory (except near the coast because security reasons), as far as Gibraltar economy is not based in their waters for fishing and have no interest.

Gibraltar prime minister has cancelled this treaty. They can... but obviously he will not be nicely received by their neighbours.

The first reaction was to assure that fishers could go inside the international waters and the neutral zone waters without problem.
Later, just they make strong the custom border checks. Nobody (as far as I know) has been forbidden to cross the border, but queues are longer.

Gibraltar required the royal army help and response (correct me, please) was that nothing to be worried except a border problem that should be solved "inside".

And... that is all.

Is anything not understood about international agreements?. I think only that if you agree fishers to stay inside your waters and without reasons and advide you cancel it... yes, you can, but you know what you will receive.



About crossing borders by forces... it is real that Spanish police has crossed the border trying to catch smugglers. They try not to do that with the GPS... but sometimes in a few space and insice a motorboat they fail and enter where they shouldn't

Next question is why there is so many alcohol, tobacco and... drugs smuggling from Gibraltar.

Gibraltar police should answer why they are one of the main harbours where receiving drug from South America and why inside the colony there is so many heroin!!!
Is that legal in Gibraltar?. I do not know the local laws but seems to be not legal...

At anytime... the first time that some Spanish policemen arrived because mistake inside the Gibraltar harbour there were too many news on media. Last time I read that as far as they noticed the mistake, they were to local authorities, explained the excuses, asked for help with smugglers (usually they have "parked" the boat and are inside Gibraltar) saying all data they have to be catched by Gibraltar police and... back home. No more news.

In the same way, it is very, very difficult to land Gibraltar airport without crossing Spanish air space.
In fact... no problem if a passengers plane... even when the only plane that lands today is partially of a Spanish company (London Heathrow - Gibraltar with British Airways and... BA and Iberia have joined themselves...)
But when it is a military plane that has to take the other country air space... the situation changes...
And there have been no problems in that way.


One last thing. About repairing submarines in Gibraltar... Royal army should know that not far away from Gibraltar they have the Rota military harbour (http://maps.google.es/maps?q=rota&hl...uc%C3%ADa&z=11) which is the only one in Spain used for NATO forces. As a NATO member they can ask for permission and stay inside if required. Only US forces enter there... but the NATO agreement makes that all countries can use the bases (in Spain there are three ones for planes and only that one, very near Gibraltar, for ships).

I am not a ship expert but I am sure that inside a military base it will be easier to make any repair than inside a commercial harbour in the middle of a city.

[madjackmcmad]

Seems like there was a bit of a rumble with handbags overnight
http://www.chronicle.gi/headlines_details.php?id=24955

HMS Sabre politely asks them to 'fark orf'

[LondonFox]

I'm all for these useless little spats... keeps the UK government on its toes and reminds the people in Westminster that the Royal Navy is a must!

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

All to do with fishing rights....not surprising given the way the Spanish decimate every fishing area they go to...greedy, rule breaking f@#*@r's..

[LondonFox]

Yeah, them and those fucking Icelandic bastards that the EU says they are allowed to fish in our North Sea territorial fishing grounds.

[alserrod]

And while... mr Rajoy and mr Cameron join together in a meeting and had too many topics to talk about... except this one.

Seems they do not worth about...

[Victhor]

Problem Spain?
This was Gibraltar yesterday night, that projection could only be seen from spanish territories, all the buildings you see are in Spain:


image hosted on flickr

North Face Projections... Gibraltar Flag on Hologram. por Joe Bonfante Photography, en Flickr

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

lol..trolling on a scale SSC members can only dream of.

nice one, to our Gib cousin's.

[AdmiralAnthony]

And Spain has a problem with that? Only because their economy is shit do the people or rather the Spanish government deliberately and with full purpose distracts the Spanish people from Spain's problems by ordering Spanish police boats and fishing boats into Gibraltarian waters to force a confrontation. That was a deliberate political calculation which was unacceptable and very wrong.

[alserrod]

Originally Posted by AdmiralAnthony

And Spain has a problem with that?

You can have a look in the Spanish forum and see the poll. 67% of forumers said they are little or nothing worried about this thread...

Only because their economy is shit do the people or rather the Spanish government deliberately and with full purpose distracts the Spanish people from Spain's problems by ordering Spanish police boats and fishing boats into Gibraltarian waters to force a confrontation. That was a deliberate political calculation which was unacceptable and very wrong.

I agree and despite all, there is a general complaint becase border checks reinforcement makes using more police assigned to that area, so it makes other towns having less police...


And finally, after Spain asked ECB rescue and all... Bay fishers and Gibraltar government had a first agreement about the area to fish.


P.S. Yesterday Mr Picardo said it was the only territory in the world without the national waters not defined and it is thrue.... and seems years are passing and nothing change there. The treaty doesn't say anything about waters, only entrance to port... but port was enlarged since three centuries ago, so it says nothing about waters.

[Hoskins]

Originally Posted by Victhor

Problem Spain?
This was Gibraltar yesterday night, that projection could only be seen from spanish territories, all the buildings you see are in Spain:


image hosted on flickr

North Face Projections... Gibraltar Flag on Hologram. por Joe Bonfante Photography, en Flickr

Epic. Gibraltarians do the Empire proud.

[madjackmcmad]

Is it me or is Sophie maturing into a right bit of old fluff btw?

image hosted on flickr

Royal Visit of the Earl & Countess of Wessex to Gibraltar by Joe Bonfante Photography, on Flickr

[AUTOTHRILL]

... Well, what's left of it :')

[blahblahv2]

Originally Posted by Hoskins

Epic. Gibraltarians do the Empire proud.

I think that was in a bit of poor taste to be honest. Remember how irked some of us get on seeing "Malvinas Argentinas"

[LondonFox]

Originally Posted by blahblahv2

I think that was in a bit of poor taste to be honest. Remember how irked some of us get on seeing "Malvinas Argentinas"

The difference is... we own both pieces of land. Legally.