Ukraine - political / media conspiracy?

[Rev Stickleback]

Originally Posted by Volodmr

I didn't know that BBC was yellow press like Daily Mail.

Thank you for links, they are positive.

Typically it's not, and Panorama certainly has no such reputation (until now).

The "media" who traditionally don't hail from working class backgrounds and aren't traditionally regular supporters, have had a long misconception about the causes of football violence. Despite being repeatedly told it's mainly about young men enjoying the thrill of fighting, they always still look for a bigger picture. Aggressive far right extremism, in their minds, dovetails nicely into the football hooligan mentality, so they look for a link between one and the other. The fact that almost all hooliganism is white on white doesn't seem to have registered. It just makes a far better story.

The Daily Mail, on the other hand, exists to pander to people who think all foreigners are dreadful and we should build a big wall around the British Isles before its too late.

The press are also pretty full of themselves, and overstate their own importance. Virtually every story about the lack of England fans in Ukraine mentioned about how fans had been scared off by the fear of violence, yet the stories came weeks after it was obvious fans weren't going, and probably only had a tiny impact on fan numbers.

There's a country some of which citizens don't like both Poland and Ukraine, with some of its rich citizens (who can pay for everything) living in London. It's just a theory, not even a conspiracy, I don't want to go too far. If BBC is so "yellow" these days, then this means that this theory should be dropped.

We have a free press, but not necessarily a responsible one.

As a rule of thumb the tabloids should be taken with a pinch of salt, while the broadsheet papers take more of a balanced view.

News programmes on tv generally have a reliable reputation. Current affairs programmes often have a slant.

Well, I'm not talking about "conspiracy". There's no need for all articles to be paid as most journalists simply copy each other. BBC had its footage. Sky Sports had its footage. Both could be paid, or could simply be "yellow", who knows? That was enough for British journalists to continue.

The footage itself was genuine, but like many things, if you go looking for a particular problem, you are likely to find it if you know where to look. If you wanted to test the idea that England is full of aggressive xenophobic people, you could easily interview some English Defence League members and get a show full of material. You could prove such people do exist in England. Whether you'd choose to present those people as typical, or a threat to people maybe coming over for the Olympics, is an entirely different matter.

[VelesHomais]

I wonder how many times have I been duped by BBC in all these years that I have held it in high regard. Disgusting communist-style smear campaign against a country desperately trying to overthrow the old stereotypes. And what is with adding an ex-Soviet state all the time? Will this go on indefinitely?

[Gzdvtz]

>And what is with adding an ex-Soviet state all the time?

That's valid for all English-language 'Western' media it seems, likewise with ex-SFRJ states. Are they THAT old and entrenched in the past completely ignoring the past 20+ years or do they think their audience is so dumb and uneducated that it hasn't updated—20 years on—its knowledge of European geography!?

I wonder if the French/Dutch/German/whatever media always add "the former Soviet/Yugoslav" before the name of these countries as well.

[Volodmr]

Originally Posted by VelesHomais

And what is with adding an ex-Soviet state all the time? Will this go on indefinitely?

Good point! By the way, most still can't drop "the", they call us "the Ukraine", instead of just "Ukraine".

[Volodmr]

Originally Posted by Gzdvtz

>And what is with adding an ex-Soviet state all the time?

That's valid for all English-language 'Western' media it seems, likewise with ex-SFRJ states. Are they THAT old and entrenched in the past completely ignoring the past 20+ years or do they think their audience is so dumb and uneducated that it hasn't updated—20 years on—its knowledge of European geography!?

I wonder if the French/Dutch/German/whatever media always add "the former Soviet/Yugoslav" before the name of these countries as well.

Probably for British press it took hundreds of years before they stopped adding "our former colony" when talking about the USA

[Gzdvtz]

For whatever reasons some countries in English go with the definite article and Ukraine is one of them.

[Volodmr]

Originally Posted by Gzdvtz

For whatever reasons some countries in English go with the definite article and Ukraine is one of them.

Thanks for "Ukraine", not "the Ukraine". And we know a little more about this issue: http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/

[mic of Orion]

FFS !!!

[Gzdvtz]

Originally Posted by Volodmr

Thanks for "Ukraine", not "the Ukraine". And we know a little more about this issue: http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/

He's wrong though:

There are only two groups of countries which require the article in English: Those with plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands. The others have names with adjectival or compound forms which require the article, such as the United Kingdom, the Dominion of Canada, or the Ukrainian SSR.

English grammar does not require a definite article before the names of singular countries such as England, Canada or Ukraine.

Sudan/Lebanon aren't plural nor adjectified/compound yet they too get the 'the'. Personally they sound odd to me so I never say the Sudan/Lebanon/Ukraine, I only use it for the Philippines or the Netherlands and such.

[Republica]

Originally Posted by Volodmr

This is the best comment ever (by Mark Bromilow in comments to Independent's article http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...7901837.html):

Exactly my experience. Every time we got out the england flag, or somebody cottoned on to the face we were english (most people in ukraine, russians or ukrainian had england / france shirts on!), we were surrounded by people taking photos, offering us vodka shots, trying to buy us drinks (i think its important to stress again that people were not trying to get money off us like in many places, we struggled to buy drinks for ourselves).

A really great trip I will remember for the rest of my life. I've been to Germany and Austria for football tournaments before in 2006 and 2008 but this was the most memorable for the sheer happiness of everyone around.

I cant stress how friendly people were. It makes me feel emotional today to know that the tournament is now over

[Volodmr]

Originally Posted by mic of Orion

[B][SIZE="7"]

I imagine your reaction if I tell you that it has to be "Kyiv", not "Kiev"

Anyway, "the Ukraine" is offensive to me and many other Ukrainians. Otherwise this issue wouldn't come up over and over again. Can tolerant Europe do us a favor?

[Gzdvtz]

Offensive? Why!? :S

[Volodmr]

Because it's a name of independent country, not a region. By the way, there's a similar dispute with Russians, who say (in Russian) something like "on Ukraine" instead of "in Ukraine".

Republica, thank you for the review and for creating this topic. Come here again and I'll buy you a drink

[Rev Stickleback]

Originally Posted by Volodmr

I imagine your reaction if I tell you that it has to be "Kyiv", not "Kiev"

Anyway, "the Ukraine" is offensive to me and many other Ukrainians. Otherwise this issue wouldn't come up over and over again. Can tolerant Europe do us a favor?

It's a case of old habits dying hard. If you've spend all your life saying "the Ukraine" it feels kind of odd to drop the "the". Very few people in England have any idea why it was called "the Ukraine", or even give a moment's thought.


I did actually notice that on the electronic ads by the halfway line in all games, for some of the time it would be displaying the name of the host city. Some cities used an anglified version of their name, but Kiev was always "Kyiv".


As for the "ex-soviet" thing, the perception is sort of that the nearer physically each state is to Russia, the nearer they are to Russia in outlook too.

Out of sight, out of mind, also comes into it. Ukraine hasn't really taken off as a tourist destination in the same was that perhaps the Baltic states have, or certainly the old eastern bloc nations have. Part of that is due to ease of getting to certain places, clearly, but perceptions do change slowly unless there's something to make those perceptions change. This tournament has seen Ukraine get more positive views than almost anything else since independence.

[Gzdvtz]

That's some silly thing some Ukrainians seem to believe. Ask the native English speakers whether "the Ukraine" implies it's a region and not a country.

[VelesHomais]

Personally, I don't care if British want to use "the" when mentioning Ukraine, obviously they're not doing it with any malicious intentions or when they don't use the official English name of the city Kyiv, instead using the old Russian transliteration, because they're not doing that intentionally to offend either. I was, however, shocked, as millions of us were, to see the type of reporting by BBC about Ukraine that we expect to come only from one place - Russia. As to the ex-Soviet state, I see how it would be useful to mention it in 1992 or even 1995, but by now I hope that most British people have heard of Ukraine and don't need to be treated by their media like their readers haven't looked at the map of Europe in 21 years.

Originally Posted by mic of Orion

FFS !!!

Are you expressing your disgust with BBC?

[Allrightsreserved]

Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback

So who is behind this anti-Ukraine smear campaign?

Russia

i think these articles were part of a conspiracy against Ukraine and Poland...and yes, of course, you have a free press, but with paid journalists...

Originally Posted by Volodmr

they call us "the Ukraine", instead of just "Ukraine".

also they think that Ukrainians is the same Russians or Ukrainians drink too much alcohol. Personally i fed up of people's ignorance, thinking that everybody who is from the former USSR, is Russian. Please note that the Ukrainian language has as much common with the Russian language, as English with Dutch (37-38% differences in vocabulary) Also the level of alcohol consumption in Ukraine is the same as in Italy, which takes the 22nd place in the world.
Ukraine isn't Russia, Ukraine isn't country of prostitutes, Ukraine isn't country of poor people... go to Ukraine and release yourself from stereotypes.

[levaniX]

I wonder, why Eastern Europeans take some unimportant western tv programmes or reports so seriously(or some exact articles)

[Iluminat]

Originally Posted by Volodmr

By the way, there's a similar dispute with Russians, who say (in Russian) something like "on Ukraine" instead of "in Ukraine".

But you don't mind Poles doing the same?
Because we also use "na Ukrainie" instead of "w Ukrainie"

[alonzo-ny]

"The' Ukraine gets on my tits. You don't say the Germany.