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Old July 10th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #3361
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one more thing,
Our city centre has to only offer a good enough shopping environment to attract people from the South Yorkshire and Derbyshire region. We have to only offer enough to convince people to shop more locally then going to either Manchester or Leeds. Hopefully, with the development of the Moor and Sevenstone, our city should meet this criteria.

We don't need to get people from our competitors (Man or Leeds) regions to come to us. I think the days have gone when people would travel very far when they have a good place in their own back yard. We only have to be good enough to attract local regions, students and visitors to the city, something I think we can do quiet easily. (which may be supported with future developments such as Rapid Buses to Rotherham and Tram-Train).
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Old July 10th, 2012, 05:39 PM   #3362
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The --- slightest.
To start with, the survey is not focused on the finance spent, rather environment etc. (far to my knwoledge).

I absolutely disagree with your opinion. You are right to say that the city centre does not have the large units as required. However, the developments at the Moor and Sevenstone should provide this. After we have the large units and have a better public realm, I cannot see people in Sheffield who live closer to the city centre travelling further to Meadowhall. The city centre currently offers alot (especially around Fargate and High Street), a new Sevenstones and the development of the Moor would be a great treat to shoppers. New stores are locating to Meadowhall because of lower rents and more security of success. Once the city centre is re-developed then it would also fit in this category. Both Scottish Widows and Hammerson will ensure we get a good retail offering after their mass investment. This would also open the door for more retailers in the future choosing the city rather than Meadowhall.

Keep hope, as the city centre may suprise you in a couple of year.

In terms of Sevenstones, I know its cut down in size and finance. This is because know it has become affordable in this terrible climate. I cannot see it not happening as tooooo much is at stake. Too many people will lose if it did not happened, therefore there is alot of backing to keep it alive.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 05:50 PM   #3363
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Neither the Moor nor Sevenstone combined are going to offer anything like the transformation of the retail environment that Liverpool One has done for Liverpool. Sevenstone will be more like the Trinity Walk scheme in Wakefield than the kind of developments you see in Leeds or Liverpool. Therefore under this scenario and as you rightly point out, the centre will be perfectly fine for for local shopping in Sheffield. However it won't be competing on the same terms as Meadowhall in terms of big retail, or in any other sense with Leeds or Manchester. It's not really good enough for a city the size of Sheffield and we have to do more to ensure people want to come to our city, without getting too bogged down in retail being the 'primary' solution.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 06:03 PM   #3364
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I think if there's the opportunity to bring in the big names then this should be done. I don't agree with the idea of a local shopping centre at all. This is the city centre of one of the largest cities in the country, and that idea would be unacceptable in a city of this size anywhere else in the world as it should be here.

Who knows what is to come of Sevenstone, or the Moor redevelopments, however, we need to wait for the economy to improve before we write off the city centre in favour of Meadowhall.

It still needs to be realised that the financially better off areas and people in the city region live on the western side of the city. I assure you many of these people would rather shop in the city centre presented the opportunity of the better retailers than in Meadowhall with all the chavs.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #3365
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UK retailing is currently changing, and will continue to do so over the next few decades. Some towns are dying, others are growing.

What surprises me is that Sheffield appears to be one of the largest in the UK to be dying.


I shop in Chesterfield, which currently has a fairly similar retail offering to Sheffield despite it being a considerably smaller conurbation.

By the time that Sheffield start developing the Moor or Sevenstone, Chesterfield will have added the 11 acre Northern Gateway retail project and the large Debenhams/Maplins sites on the edge of town. It might even have started on the 7.5 acre Chesterfield Waterside with its own retail offering.


In my opinion, even when the Moor and Sevenstone are finished the damage to Sheffield will have been done. It will be very difficult to persuade people to make the effort to go to Sheffield for a handful of new shops; Meadowhall, Leeds, Manchester and Nottingham will still have a better selection of shops. Even Chesterfield may be more attractive for retail?

There are two ways that Sheffield can attract people;
1)Make it easy and cheap to park. I can park for free in Chesterfield and Meadowhall. Why pay to shop in Sheffield? If people are prepared to shop online to save a few pennies, they’ll certainly avoid Sheffield to save a few pounds.
A series of large, cheap car parks within a short walking distance of the city centre is essential. AFAIK, John Lewis is actually the cheapest at £1/hour despite being most central. If they can do it, then Sheffield City Council must be able to offer cheap or free parking, mustn’t they? The free bus really should ferry people from the car parks to the centre too.

2)Offer OTHER things to do for the retail therapy crowd; Cafes, bars and restaurants are a must; The theatres are excellent, but there also needs to be a quality city-centre cinema too; Re-arrange the Graves library/art gallery to make it a desirable destination; Large covered areas are needed to keep dry in during bad weather (arcades rather than malls); More organised areas for quality buskers and musicians would make a better atmosphere; Customer-friendly opening hours (those who work 9-5 are the ones with money); Proper, integrated tourist breaks (theatre/concert tie-ins, real ale trails, sports tie-ins); Proper promotion of sporting events (sell to the unaware, not to those already in the know); Make the fantastic parks easily accessible to tourists from the city centre; Free public transport for hotel guests; Make the city centre a desirable place at night for those who don’t want to get drunk – theatre, cinema and concert goers are often put off. I’m sure that there are lots more things that could be done.

What is key 2) is that 1) has to be done. Sheffield needs people to hang around for hours, not to force them away after their essential shopping is done.

Sheffield needs to be a destination, not an obstacle.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #3366
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Great posts Larven, cheers. Cities are the most environmentally friendly way to live too.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 07:27 PM   #3367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larven View Post
Neither the Moor nor Sevenstone combined are going to offer anything like the transformation of the retail environment that Liverpool One has done for Liverpool. Sevenstone will be more like the Trinity Walk scheme in Wakefield than the kind of developments you see in Leeds or Liverpool. Therefore under this scenario and as you rightly point out, the centre will be perfectly fine for for local shopping in Sheffield. However it won't be competing on the same terms as Meadowhall in terms of big retail, or in any other sense with Leeds or Manchester. It's not really good enough for a city the size of Sheffield and we have to do more to ensure people want to come to our city, without getting too bogged down in retail being the 'primary' solution.
As I have said previously, We do not need to be competing with the masses, rather, we need to offer enough to keep the people in Sheffield, and south Yorkshire pleased. Pleased enough to keep them from travel to cities such as Manchester and Leeds for shopping. Imagine a city centre with the completed Sevenstone's and Moor and the Independent businesses of Division St, the traditional feel of Fargate up to Tudor Square and the lively atmosphere of High street. That is what I would call my 'ideal' shopping area, bubbly, cultural and lively. Sheffield can easily become this in the next 5 years.

Meadowhall does have its good's such as free parking, indoor and fairly clean atmosphere. However, it would also has its bad's such as being on one end of the city, sometimes too hot and cramped and boring. Similarly, the city centre also has its Good's and Bad's. Someone who loves Meadowhall type of shopping would certainly dislike Sheffield city centre, similarly people who like City Centre style shopping will dislike Meadowhall. The solution is to have a balance between both shopping areas, so people get whatever they want in their preferred environment. Although Sheffield city centre is currently lagging behind abit, these schemes would do enough to make us par with Meadowhall. (don't forget, the point of the city centre is not to have a shopping environment similar to the out-of-town shopping centre, rather different and unique which makes it special)

I agree with the concept that Retail is not all that should be focused on in the city centre. Personally, if I was an influencing figure for Hammerson, I would urge them to keep a tower bloc for accommodation and/or office space. However, I acknowledge that Retail is a core sector which the city centre is lacking in, therefore a scheme solely for that purpose is also understandable. Hopefully, it would be an anchor for further developments.
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Old July 10th, 2012, 09:16 PM   #3368
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I'm not suggesting Sheffield give up on retail as I see it developing more like the type of shops you get on Division Street, not Fargate
Division Street? Sainsburys? A couple of sandwich shops and pubs? Is O2 still open? Some "Vintage Clothes" places? Spar? Costa Coffee?

Plus continuing along you've got Starbucks/ Subway/ Greggs/ Tesco One Stop/ Fancy Dress Shop...

It's more like a collection of places to pop to on a lunch break than a city centre.
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Old July 11th, 2012, 01:25 AM   #3369
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Even if Sevenstone is smaller it will have a catalyst effect of promoting new business in the area. For example Trinity Leeds has created an overspill of new developments surrounding it. Theres a slick new shopping arcade with 20 retail retail units opened last month directly opposite (below). The main selling point been it's opposite Trinity. Sevenstone is vital for the city, without it the city can't grow and will decline further.

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Old July 11th, 2012, 09:35 AM   #3370
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(don't forget, the point of the city centre is not to have a shopping environment similar to the out-of-town shopping centre, rather different and unique which makes it special).
I completely agree and this is what we should be striving to do in the centre of Sheffield. How do we make it unique from other cities so we can attract the kind of visitor that could easily go to Manchester or Leeds? We certainly aren't going to be competitive in terms of big retail so what else can we do to pull in the crowds and get our city centre bustling? Even if a pared down Sevenstone were to have loads of Meadowhall type units that big retailers like, the city centre still wouldn't have anywhere near like the gravitas of Leeds or Manchester and the only real competitor would be Meadowhall. In this scenario we would effectively be competing with ourselves!

I don't happen to think that significant resources from that fund that has been announced should be spent trying to resurrect a second rate, retail park kind of development from the ashes of Sevenstone. There have been some other hugely ambitious ideas put forward for Sheffield in the last few years that require initial public investment to leverage private sector funding. After all the attention and investment the centre has received during the last 15 years, I think its important we also turn our attention to some other areas of Sheffield. Much could be done outside the centre to improve the city and boost growth, jobs and consolidate the activities that Sheffield is known and respected for. This would include sport and the universities, whilst attempting to add new strings to Sheffield's bow to attract a new kind of visitor.

One such project was for a huge 220,000 sqft exhibition centre on the site opposite Wickes on Penistone Road. Where is the nearest major exhibition centre from here? Leeds doesn't have one and you'd have to go to the GMEX in Manchester or the NEC in Birmingham to find one on a comparable scale. Imagine what such a facility could do for Sheffield. The exhibition centre was intended to anchor a wider development including a Research Institute, Technology Clusters and and Innovation Centre for University Spinouts. In addition there was to be an elite sports centre (the Lawn Tennis Association were prepared to put some money into this), an outdoor sports centre and associated facilities like hotel, car park and health and community centre. There was even plans to reinstate at least part of the Don Valley Railway up to Penistone and run it down to the AMP to increase the synergy and connectivity between the two area.

This project applied to the Regional Growth Fund (RGF) and the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) for funding and recieved nothing. It would be refreshing if SCC could step up to the plate and use some of that £700m to kickstart ambitious projects like these, rather than for a second rate, retail park shopping experience in the centre.

Last edited by larven; July 11th, 2012 at 09:44 AM.
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Old July 11th, 2012, 12:54 PM   #3371
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We do not need to be competing with the masses, rather, we need to offer enough to keep the people in Sheffield, and south Yorkshire pleased. Pleased enough to keep them from travel to cities such as Manchester and Leeds for shopping
It's not quite that simple though. Most people have a choice of at least two centres. If you're in Barnsley, Leeds or Sheffield. Chesterfield/Mansfield; Sheffield or Nottingham, and those in the Peaks between Sheffield and Manchester. If you're talking about South Yorkshire too, it's as easy for Doncaster residents to get to York or Leeds as it is to Meadowhall or Sheffield too.

You don't have to be a retail 'capital' in the same way Leeds & Manchester vie to be, but when cities are so close, you are trying to pull many of the same people in- so the retail offer has to match up in the most part otherwise Sheffield will still be unable to attract people from these crossover areas like Barnsley.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesheffield View Post
Our city centre has to only offer a good enough shopping environment to attract people from the South Yorkshire and Derbyshire region. We have to only offer enough to convince people to shop more locally then going to either Manchester or Leeds.
I think part of the problem with this is that for anyone coming from the Leeds/Wakefield/Barnsley direction, or indeed Rotherham, you have to pass Meadowhall to get to Sheffield City Centre. So for half of Sheffield City Region, it makes more sense to go to Meadowhall.

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Originally Posted by AdamBlade View Post
I think if there's the opportunity to bring in the big names then this should be done. I don't agree with the idea of a local shopping centre at all. This is the city centre of one of the largest cities in the country, and that idea would be unacceptable in a city of this size anywhere else in the world as it should be here.
I would agree, and add that Sheffield has a generally well-preserved City Centre with good architecture. With the right internal conversions, these are all the sort of buildings that retailers aspire for to give them the status and grandeur they just don't get in bland shopping centres.

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One such project was for a huge 220,000 sqft exhibition centre on the site opposite Wickes on Penistone Road. Where is the nearest major exhibition centre from here?
I think Sheffield needs to get its external transport links sorted before it can go down that route. Electrification of the MML and HS2 should tick that box.

I say that because Harrogate International Centre is the third largest integrated conference & exhibition centre in the UK- far larger and higher standard than what can be offered in Manchester currently. However, due to the limited transport to Harrogate, the industry is suffering and some conferences have moved to Manchester and other venues, even though they are smaller/lower grade. Ultimately, prestigious organisations asking their delegates to get on slow, grubby diesel trains after changing from the ECML was just not good enough.

It proves that accessibility, particularly from London & the SE, is the key to a successful conference & exhibition industry.
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Old July 11th, 2012, 01:17 PM   #3372
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I don't think Sheffield has as poor transport links as Harrogate.

There is a reasonable rail service to London from Sheffield station, from where you could have picked up a supertram to take you direct to the proposed conference site. Road links are pretty good here too, right on the ring road which discharges you straight onto the Parkway or down Saville Street for easy access to the M1. The roads across the Pennines are crap but well, they are what they are.

Of course it would be better if we had electrification of the MML or HS2 but you can't just write off projects or ideas because we don't have those in place.
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Old July 11th, 2012, 03:05 PM   #3373
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One such project was for a huge 220,000 sqft exhibition centre on the site opposite Wickes on Penistone Road. Where is the nearest major exhibition centre from here? Leeds doesn't have one and you'd have to go to the GMEX in Manchester or the NEC in Birmingham to find one on a comparable scale. Imagine what such a facility could do for Sheffield. The exhibition centre was intended to anchor a wider development including a Research Institute, Technology Clusters and and Innovation Centre for University Spinouts. In addition there was to be an elite sports centre (the Lawn Tennis Association were prepared to put some money into this), an outdoor sports centre and associated facilities like hotel, car park and health and community centre. There was even plans to reinstate at least part of the Don Valley Railway up to Penistone and run it down to the AMP to increase the synergy and connectivity between the two area.

This project applied to the Regional Growth Fund (RGF) and the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) for funding and recieved nothing. It would be refreshing if SCC could step up to the plate and use some of that £700m to kickstart ambitious projects like these, rather than for a second rate, retail park shopping experience in the centre.
You should write to the council and suggest that Larven - thats exactly what we need here in Sheffield IMO.
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Old July 11th, 2012, 03:27 PM   #3374
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I've no doubt the people leading the project are working on it as we speak.
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Old July 11th, 2012, 06:21 PM   #3375
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That would be amazing. Can we squeeze a 6,000 seater city-centre Ice Rink in with it too?
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Old July 12th, 2012, 12:26 AM   #3376
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I don't think Sheffield has as poor transport links as Harrogate.

There is a reasonable rail service to London from Sheffield station, from where you could have picked up a supertram to take you direct to the proposed conference site. Road links are pretty good here too, right on the ring road which discharges you straight onto the Parkway or down Saville Street for easy access to the M1. The roads across the Pennines are crap but well, they are what they are.

Of course it would be better if we had electrification of the MML or HS2 but you can't just write off projects or ideas because we don't have those in place.
No it doesn't, but it is still worse than Birmingham and Manchester which would provide the main competition, and to some extent Leeds. I just think that if Sheffield were to invest in a conference venue, it risks being a white elephant until MML electrification/HS2.

And I dare to suggest that the best location for a conference and exhibition centre in Sheffield would be at Meadowhall- the most likely place for the HS2 station. Cheap land, ready for development for all those big halls that would be needed.
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Old July 12th, 2012, 07:27 AM   #3377
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Having been to the ICC in Birmingham fairly recently the most impressive thing for me was its location near the canal and proximity to local hotels, eateries and bars. There are many within a 2 minute walk of the main conference area. Most conferences have a lot of downtime after the event and the spend in Birmingham must be high because of how easy it is for people to pop out to Broad St or Brindley place.

In fact it was the first time I had been to Birmingham and because I was able to explore on that trip quite easily and was impressed, I have been back since with my wife, staying in a hotel and also venturing into the shopping areas. For me it is not the ease of getting to it that mattered as I think all cities in the UK are easy to get to, it was more about the offer when there and the ease of accessing it on foot in downtime that was more important. Therefore location needs to be fairly central, close to everything (especially hotels, food and drink) so I would say in Sheffield the best area (long term) would be where Park Square roundabout is if they remove it anytime soon linking in to Victoria Quays, or more immediately between the Wicker and Derek Dooley way IRR (Kelham Island), allowing for clearance of that warehouse dominant area, close to 60% of our hotels, the Wicker could become a restaurant and bar district and they could then re-open a viable Victoria BOOM!)

Anyway... Sevenstone...
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Old July 12th, 2012, 09:11 AM   #3378
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And I dare to suggest that the best location for a conference and exhibition centre in Sheffield would be at Meadowhall- the most likely place for the HS2 station. Cheap land, ready for development for all those big halls that would be needed.
Poossibly right, however the conference centre was intended to be an anchor for a much wider development as I outlined. As a stand alone building a site closer to the centre or near Meadowhall would probably be better, although at the time HS2 hadn't been given the go ahead so the likelihood of a station in that part of the city wasn't taken into consideration.

Anyway it just goes to show that there are other causes out there that we should focus on other than bringing a 'Trinity Walk clone' to the centre of Sheffield.
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Old July 12th, 2012, 01:49 PM   #3379
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Yes of course more needs to be done to bring business, conferences and cultural visitors into the city, but you seem to be suggesting that building any kind of retail is a bad idea and the city should just wave the white flag and move all retail to Meadowhall. So what if Sevenstone isn't going to put Sheffield in the premier league of retail, if it improves the city and offers some bigger floorplates to get a few more decent retailers into the city that would be enough.

You seem to be suggesting that it's mutually exclusive and by building a retail development Sheffield will be missing out in other areas, which is nonsense, we're not talking about an either/or here, or only one site left for development. If any city has the space to improve it's centre in numerous ways it's Sheffield.

So since you seem to be so dead set against any form of retail improvement in the city centre, and particularly sevenstone, tell us why you think Sevenstone is bad for the city?
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Old July 12th, 2012, 06:19 PM   #3380
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Yes of course more needs to be done to bring business, conferences and cultural visitors into the city, but you seem to be suggesting that building any kind of retail is a bad idea and the city should just wave the white flag and move all retail to Meadowhall. So what if Sevenstone isn't going to put Sheffield in the premier league of retail, if it improves the city and offers some bigger floorplates to get a few more decent retailers into the city that would be enough.

You seem to be suggesting that it's mutually exclusive and by building a retail development Sheffield will be missing out in other areas, which is nonsense, we're not talking about an either/or here, or only one site left for development. If any city has the space to improve it's centre in numerous ways it's Sheffield.

So since you seem to be so dead set against any form of retail improvement in the city centre, and particularly sevenstone, tell us why you think Sevenstone is bad for the city?
I don't think Larven is saying that Sevenstones is bad for the city but the council focusing all resources and funding at develiering the scheme is? Am I right Larven?
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