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Old March 12th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #61
skganji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desiyogi View Post
If my above staements are ok, then one can say that Krishna was not in time of Vedas and Vishnu may not be in time of Vedas [ with Prakrit language.]"
Lord Vishnu appears in Rigveda in numerous hymns. The Wikipidea article says , he occurs 93 times in Rigveda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu.

Prakrit is not associated with RigVeda . It is a language that was in use atleast by 6th century B.C , duly attested through various inscriptions in North India and some inscriptions in Sri Lanka. Vedic sanskrit is much archaic and we can guage its historicity by seeing the hymns about River Saraswati in Rig Veda. Through scientific studies , it is estimated that River Saraswati dried up by 2000 BCE.
Krishna appears fully in Bhagavat Purana. In general, Puranic sanskrit is much younger than the Vedic Sanskrit.
To say that Hindu gods doesn't appear in Vedas is incorrect. Lord Vishnua , Lord Rudra ( Shiva) appear in Rigveda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudra

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seyoan View Post
Their created artificial language, sanskrit built its vocabulary by borrowing freely from the natural languages like prakrit and Tamil. But fanatics try to reverse this assimilation
Which fanatics ??. It depends on whom you speak. The truth is that you can't find a single Tamil Inscription in entire North India speaks the fact that this language is more associated with South India. Parpola and I. Mahadevan are just fancying the theory that Rigveda borrowed words from Old Tamil. The fanciful interpretation of some Indus tablets with old tamil writing is just a hypothesis and its validity can't be proven unless a bilingual script is found. Out of 10 Mandalas of Rigveda with almost 10,000 verses containing some 20,000 padas , these scholars came up with a miserly 95 words to prove that Vedic sanskrit borrowed words from Old Tamil. This is also seriously contested by proper sanskrit scholars. Words like Langula ( Plough) are some examples quoted by them and it doesn't instill any confidence to any Sanskrit Scholar.

Last edited by skganji; March 12th, 2012 at 09:28 PM.
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Old March 12th, 2012, 10:08 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skganji View Post
Lord Vishnu appears in Rigveda in numerous hymns. The Wikipidea article says , he occurs 93 times in Rigveda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishnu.
Yes Vishnu's name does appear in Rig but he is a very minor god along with several 100s



Quote:
Which fanatics ??. It depends on whom you speak. The truth is that you can't find a single Tamil Inscription in entire North India speaks the fact that this language is more associated with South India. Parpola and I. Mahadevan are just fancying the theory that Rigveda borrowed words from Old Tamil. The fanciful interpretation of some Indus tablets with old tamil writing is just a hypothesis and its validity can't be proven unless a bilingual script is found. Out of 10 Mandalas of Rigveda with almost 10,000 verses containing some 20,000 padas , these scholars came up with a miserly 95 words to prove that Vedic sanskrit borrowed words from Old Tamil. This is also seriously contested by proper sanskrit scholars. Words like Langula ( Plough) are some examples quoted by them and it doesn't instill any confidence to any Sanskrit Scholar.

Yes there are not many Tamil inscription in North India but we have found that in plenty in Egypt, SE asia, Africa etc many predating CE

One very simple explanation is Tamil was spoken across in India before we had proper scripting, but the language/speakers were pushed to south and after that proper script developed.


Please accept the truth that there is not one Sanskrit inscription any where in the world that predates CE.

Anyway using your logic, do you accept that sanskrit was never spoken in India


Don't understand why you call Mahadevan's work as fanciful.
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Old March 12th, 2012, 10:40 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seyoan View Post
Yes Vishnu's name does appear in Rig but he is a very minor god along with several 100s

Yes there are not many Tamil inscription in North India but we have found that in plenty in Egypt, SE asia, Africa etc many predating CE

One very simple explanation is Tamil was spoken across in India before we had proper scripting, but the language/speakers were pushed to south and after that proper script developed.

Please accept the truth that there is not one Sanskrit inscription any where in the world that predates CE.

Anyway using your logic, do you accept that sanskrit was never spoken in India

Don't understand why you call Mahadevan's work as fanciful.
Whether Minor or Major , Vishnu still finds a place in Rigveda. Making falsified statements doesn't instill confidence in the reader.

Yes, I understand that not many sanskrit inscriptions were found in India that predates CE. However, there are coins from various places which contained Sanskrit names . There are some Prakrit Inscriptions that Predate CE. Prakrit and Sanskrit has close affinity. This close proximity is itself a proof that Sanskrit was used in ancient India even though there may not be many Inscriptions. How can one deny the existence of Sanskrit in Ancient India when it is clearly talking about Saptha-Sindhu, river Saraswati . All the sthala Puranas were written in Sanskrit in ancient India. Kampilyamahatmya a sthala purana contains sanskrit verses speaking about the events at Kampilya during the time of Mahabharatha. If Dravidian speakers inhabited this region why can't you find Kampilyamahatmya in Dravidian language. Where did I say that Sanskrit was never spoken in India ?. Vedic Sanskrit and Classical Sanskrit are different phasis of Sanskrit development. If it was not spoken at some point of time in India, why do we see Vedas ,Puranas in Sanskrit language.
You can't find a single old Tamil inscription even at places like Ahicchatra, Kampilya, Magadha, Kasi, Kosala or even in the sixteen Janapadas which existed by 6th century B.C. However , at least there is written Sanskrit classical texts which speak about these 16 janapadas. Even Panini's Asthadyayi a sanskrit work speaks about the Janapadas ( around 6th century B.C).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janapadas


Even at Ahicchatra you will find coins that proof of existence of Sanskrit/Prakrit and not old tamil. Readers can find the coins with the list of Kings that ruled Ahicchatra at this link. The names of Kings like Agnimitra, Suryamitra and Yagnabala all are either Sanskrit/Prakrit names and not by any means a dravidian name.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/I.../message/11462

There is no archaeological proof that Dravidian Speakers are pushed to the south of Indian subcontinent. This fanciful imagination of Dravidian politicians and few chauvanistic scholars is not the proof. You don't see a single Dravidian text which speaks about this forced migration of them from North India. Show me some concrete evidence to impose this cooked up event in the History of India.

Last edited by skganji; March 12th, 2012 at 10:58 PM.
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Old March 13th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #64
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skganji.. Please continue your commendable focus on this topic. Really appreciate your contributions.

There are folks who want to separate vedas and hinduism.. they are definitely having neither sight of history nor religion.. forget spirituality.

What is interesting is the half baked self acclaimed researchers misquote the six darshanas, especially Nyaya and Vaisheshika ideas as proof that some Hindus were against Ishvara (Cosmic being). While some of the earlier darshanas toyed with the idea of no cosmic being, they could not hold true in front of later luminaries like Adi Shankara.

Two mistakes usual bookish atheists commit..They forget that all six darshanas agree and quote from vedas or the offshoots. The ones that totally declined Vedas.. ended up as Jainism and Buddhism as they not only saw philosophical difference, but they wanted to severe any foundational relationship. Undeniably all these religions exchanged ideas, in spite of this.Thus was the division of Asthika and nasthika.. the ones who take vedas or not as their source of spiritual foundation.

So someone trying to say Vedas are not part of hinduism, is trying to exhibit their ignorance.

Second mistake is that these folks are trying to talk about a topic which is fit only for a subtler mind, which has ripened full with analysis. It will be easier to talk quantum science to a toddler than to talk these subtleties with someone who wants only argument..

Although the six darshanas are there, some of these schools had inherent flaws, rather limitations, which could not stand the test of time(Sankhya for instance). Given the fact, there were more scholars and sages and saints from the vedantic school in the last 2000 years, we are currently in a world, where hinduism is reduced to vedanta and yoga (not hatha yoga).

We can just agree that the historical details of the times between 2500 BC and earlier is still holding a lot of secrets that can be cracked hopefully with time. But definitely all the pieces will not be put together.
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Old March 15th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #65
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When you start attacking who ask questions, it only show that you have no faith in what you are talking about.
Not sure if vedas teach you manners, but being ad hominemistic is not welcomed in any civilized society.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 03:57 AM   #66
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this has nothing to do with topic but nonetheless it is important if you guys are quoting from divine vedas.

people must know that vedas are not polytheistic at all...all the names like vishnum,brahma,agni are different attributes of the same almighty,formless,omnipresent supreme ishwar.

read yajurveda mantra 32/1 which says that name of God are told AGNI, ADITYA, VAAYU, CHANDRMA, SHUKRAM, BRAHM, AAPAH, AND PRAJAPATIHI and many many more....
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Old March 16th, 2012, 04:02 AM   #67
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a small addition:

when humans first migrated from africa they came to india and kept moving downwards as fertility of land was increasing...we all know that fertility of soil is amazing in south india..south indians have been here for quite long...but that does not mean others came later....some might have stayed north and in middle region...
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Old March 16th, 2012, 03:45 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seyoan View Post


When you start attacking who ask questions, it only show that you have no faith in what you are talking about.
Not sure if vedas teach you manners, but being ad hominemistic is not welcomed in any civilized society.
It is interesting, if you get a taste of your own medicine.. This thread has nothing to do with the DK ideas you are trying to propagate.. You should leave that in chai bar...

If some one makes preposterous suggestions with ulterior motives, of saying hinduism and vedas are not same... well list your proofs for your arguments..This is not the first time you have been trying to work your tangential whims.

Hinduism has also evolved.. the focus on certain portions of vedas has shifted as there has been an evolution of though process and refinement in the interpretations..

This has nothing to do about my faith. It has to do faith of the millions... I have time and again highlighted that Vedas are not only the Karma kandas where Agni or Vayu are featured.. They also contain the Vedantic portions. Why have such pseudo rationalists never attemped to go after the faiths of others...

There are folks who learn and have difference of opinion.. There are folks who argue just for the sake of arguing. Unfortunately you seem to hug the latter. Your demonstrated purpose is definitely not either learning by questions or sharing some revelations..

Please focus on the thread's ideas.. If you wish to say that Hinduism is copy of some other religion.. start your own thread.. This thread focusses on Lost Saraswati Valley civilization. Spare the thread... .. I think skg has done a phenomenal job and it is better to leave it that way.

The only reason I had to step in was, such dangerous ideas are at best retained with either your own thread or followers. As such Sanatana Dharma is under attack from so many forces, I dont hesitate to step in on behalf of it. I dont care for your monikers.

If there is any intelligent discussion on the questions, with an intent to learn, I had already volunteered in earlier postings with you. But the intent is very clear, to either ridicule or to make your pseudo rationalistic arguments only to hurt the minds of other readers. I am not taking your statements personally as much I am taking the impact of these false arguments. I have no ill feelings about you or for that matter even your arguments. But I know a lot of others may not be strong enough for such pseudo arguments.

Last edited by satchitananda; March 16th, 2012 at 04:00 PM.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #69
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I decide not to argue with a zombie like you. When I ask question specifically to Skgangi I sincerely request to stop interfering.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #70
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Please accept the truth that there is not one Sanskrit inscription any where in the world that predates CE.


If you disagree with this please provide scientific evidence. Please do not just provide literary or heresay evidence.

Some tamil lit claims more than 20,000 years antiquity for Tamil language, that cannot be had as an evidence for the antiquity for the language. we need scientific proofs.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 05:41 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seyoan View Post


I decide not to argue with a zombie like you. When I ask question specifically to Skgangi I sincerely request to stop interfering.
Nor do I.. The following didnt seem like a question...

Quote:
Quote:
What has vedas to do with Hinduism?
Just curious, I have not seen any temple for Indra,Mitra,Vayu etc in India.
I do not see much mention of the popular Hindu gods in any of the vedas, why is that?

Is vedas the fountain head of hinduism or is vedas just based on their obscurity claims to be the genesis of hinduism.

Hindusim predates vedas, vedics where a bunch of people with specific belief system that tried to impose their faith on hindus but failed miserably and poor guys they become hindus themselves but still have not chucked of their religious texts (Just the 4 vedas).
This didnt seem like a question..

Quote:
Their created artificial language, sanskrit built its vocabulary by borrowing freely from the natural languages like prakrit and Tamil. But fanatics try to reverse this assimilation.
This seemed like either a well researched scholarly remark or someone who is making intentional statements..

Prove that Tamil was the origin for Sanskrit as per your claim. Prove that reverse assimilation is happening.. Prove that hinduism is not same as vedas per your discovery.
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Old March 16th, 2012, 08:54 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seyoan View Post
Please accept the truth that there is not one Sanskrit inscription any where in the world that predates CE.
I provided evidence at this link that there are some coins with Sanskrit/Prakrit names which predates CE.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/I.../message/11462

Even the Wikipedia article says that "The earliest known inscriptions in Sanskrit date to the 1st century BCE".

I didn't understand why this same argument is repeated on all most all the sites where people argue that Tamil is older than Sanskrit. I am not able to understand why these people seperate Sanskrit and Prakrit and try to make their arguments. By the way, what is Prakrit. One can see at this link and also by looking at the Prakrit inscriptions people will find a remarkable similarity between Sanskrit and Prakrit. There is no doubt that Prakrit is derived from Sanskrit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prakrit.

When we have numerous Prakrit inscriptions that predate CE, what else do you need to understand that Sanskrit was still in use for a long time. What do you want to prove when you say that there are no inscriptions that predate CE ?.
Even this wikipedia article on Rigveda ( written in Vedic sanskrit) says that it was composed roughly between 1700–1100 BC. What other information do you need to make people believe that Sanskrit is a very ancient language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda


Patanjali, a grammarian and commentator on Panini around 150 BC, describes in the Mahābhāsya, the invasion in two examples using the imperfect tense of Sanskrit, denoting a recent event:[96][97]. This is from Indo-Greek Kings article in Wikipedia.

"Arunad Yavanah Sāketam" ("The Yavanas (Greeks) were besieging Saketa"). Here the word Arunad ( आरुणद्धि ) means beseige.
"Arunad Yavano Madhyamikām" ("The Yavanas were besieging Madhyamika" (the "Middle country")).

A Indo-Greek coin with Sanskrit/Prakrit Inscription ( written in Kharoshti script) from 150 B.C. Meaning "MAHARAJA TRATASA MENADRASA": "Of The Saviour King Menander". One can easily clearly sanskrit words in in this inscription ( Maharaja - the great king, asya -of from sanskrit becomes asa-of in Prakrit, त्रातृ [trAtR] - Saviour in Sanskrit becomes Tratasa - Saviour in Prakrit) . Image of this coin can be see below. Greek inscription is in the front and Kharoshti inscription is in the reverse.



Here is one more inscription from Mittani Kingdom ( 1400 BC) on horse training with Vedic Sanskrit loan words.

CTH 284 consists of four well preserved tablets or a total of 1080 lines. The text is notable for its Mitanni (Indo-Aryan) loanwords, e.g. the numeral compounds aiga-, tera-, panza-, satta-, nāwa-wartanna ("one, three, five, seven, nine intervals"[1], virtually Sanskrit eka-, tri-, pañca- sapta-, nava-vartana. Kikkuli apparently was faced with some difficulty getting specific Mitannian concepts across in the Hittite language, for he frequently gives a term such as “Intervals” in his own language (somewhat similar to Vedic Sanskrit), and then states, “this means…” and explained it in Hittite.[2]

Last edited by skganji; March 17th, 2012 at 01:20 AM.
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Old March 19th, 2012, 07:39 AM   #73
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@skganji

Since you are not from TamilNadu, it may be hard for you to fathom the dynamics of Tamil-Sanskrit.

At best what we can say with today's evidence is that both these languages have a hoary past and real unbiased research is needed to unearth. Undeniably there is a lot of influence in today's Tamil by Sanskrit. I would not be so sure of the very early times Tamil from 2000 years ago, as the language spoken/written was lot different.

For instance, there has been a pseudo rationalist cult in TN for the past 60-70 years. Karunanidhi, the ex-CM of TN belongs to this pseudo rationalist cult (The reason I call pseudo rationalism, is because they change things to suit their convenience.. thats not the topic).

Karunanidhi itself is a sanskritized word.. As a person with Sanskrit base you can know Karuna Nidhi.. one with abundance (Wealth) of Compassion.. In election they fight under symbols.. If you ask Karunanidhi (DMK) what is the term for symbol in tamil.. the answer will come சின்னம்.. चिह्न in devanagari.. ask him what is his symbol.. (Rising sun - உதய சூரியன் ) उदय सूर्य. He is very scholarly in Tamil. He could not have chosen his name, but cant he even choose his own party symbol in pure tamil..


This is not to put down Karunanidhi or his contributions.. but to highlight that languages have been impacted and borrowing from each other.
The reason I give this example is to highlight the fact that many times research takes back seat due to biased entities.

Definitely I am not amounting to say Tamil was derived from sanskrit or vice versa.. as both these languages seem to have mysterious past. Incidentally, according to the legend, the first available tamil book is Tholkappiam . But according to the same legends, it is based off of an earlier tamil book called agaththiyam, written by sage agasthya. I am not claiming if the legends are true, but the same savants of Tamil, seem to be quoting to point out as its roots.

It will be real interesting linguistic research to find if there was a common ancestor to both Sanskrit and Tamil or if they co-evolved around similar times independantly.

The west made fun of Vedas telling there is hardly any mention of Ganges, but Saraswati is not even a river.. no one can see it.. then research proved today beyond doubt that there is a Saraswati Haggar river.. for geological reasons and more it is flowing underground.. Today research shows a large percentage of Harrapan civilisation should be ideally called Saraswati Valley civilisation.

It really is annoying to find pseudo rationalists wanting proof for anything Hindu, but will never question other religions' faith. If they were true to the process, they should deal with their own idea unbiased.

We definitely need more research, but no one can deny that sanskrit and bulk of Indian civilisation are inter twined.

Great job doing this patient research. We need definitely more postings from more contributors, doing more real research.

Last edited by satchitananda; March 19th, 2012 at 07:46 AM.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 10:46 PM   #74
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I am not a horse specialist, however, with some little research I am posting these comments after going through the material in Rigveda and understanding about a 34 ribbed horse.

The verse from Rig veda , Book 1, Hymn CLXII verse 18 , talks about the 34 ribbed horse.

चतुस्त्रिंशद वाजिनो देवबन्धोर्वङकरीरश्वस्य सवधितिःसमेति |

Translation : चतुस्त्रिंशद - thirty four, वाजिनो - swift, देवबन्धो - kin to the gods, वङ्क्रि - rib,
अश्वस्य - of the horse,सवधितिः ( स्वधिति ) - hatchet , समेति - enter

Translation ( Ralph T.H. Griffith) : The four-and-thirty ribs of the. Swift Charger, kin to the Gods, the slayer's hatchet pierces.

This 34 ribbed horse could very well be the Arabian horse. The horse of Rig veda ( from Mandala 1) could very well have been brought through trade from Middle East . I am more inclined towards this coming from Middle East, since the Hymn CLXIII verse 1 talks about the sea and the horse.

यदक्रन्दः परथमं जायमान उद्यन समुद्रादुत वा पुरीषात |

यद - what, क्रन्दः - neighing ( cry, calling out, horse makes this peculiar noise), परथमं - first, उद्यन - rise, समुद्र - sea or ocean, वा - or,

Translation ( Ralph T.H. Griffith : What time, first springing into life, thou neighedst, proceeding from the sea or upper waters.

Last edited by skganji; May 22nd, 2012 at 03:07 AM.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:39 PM   #75
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Experts to trace roots of Saraswati River

SOURCE:

The roots of ancient and mythical river, Saraswati, are now being dug up. The Saraswati River Research Development project of the Bharatiya Itihas Sanklan Samiti, Gujarat has started digging a bore well in collaboration with Kutch University and the Physical Research Laboratory (PRL) to trace the roots of the Saraswati in the state.

Former scientist of Indian Space Research Organisation ( ISRO), P S Thakkar, said on Tuesday that the digging of the bore well is on in the Great Rann of Kutch. "We are hopeful of finding traces of Saraswati. A study of different layers of soil in Kutch and Rajasthan reveals that they are of the same quality and date back to the same century,'' he said.

Talking to reporters, Thakkar said that the Saraswati was a river which had its origin in the glaciers of Himalaya near Kailash Mansarovar. He said that the Samiti had found five different flows of Saraswati in the state.

Several palaeo-channels of river have been identified in the region of Rajasthan, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and adjacent areas, some of which are assigned to the Saraswati. The river is considered to have migrated from east to west. But in the past, most discussions have pointed to the river being in north Gujarat.

During low sea level regime, the Rann of Kutch and Gulf of Cambay played a significant role in sustaining the course of northern rivers and helped human settlements to thrive. Discovery of distinct palaeo-channel with fortified settlement and numerous channels appeared in the Great Rann of Kutch immediately after the 2001 earthquake.

Thakkar said that once the flow of river was found, the Samiti plans to construct bore well in the Rann of Kutch which will be of help not only for people of Kutch but also for the jawans of the Border Security Force (BSF).

He said that a small booklet on Saraswati has been prepared for school students, while a 100-page booklet for high school students and a 200-page booklet for college students would be prepared.

---------------------------------------------

Interesting, we have come a long way from maintaining Saraswati river as a myth to mapping the paleo channels.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 03:51 AM   #76
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Sapta-Sindhu, Geographical Identification and Historical Significance - Shiva G.Bajpai.

Meaning and Import of Sapta Sindhu

SAPTA


The first issue involves the meaning of the word Sapta. According to Monier-William's Sanskrit Dictionary :

"Sapta, means Seven, a favorite number with the Hindus, regarded as sacred, often used to express an idefinite plurality in the same manner as 'three', by which it is some times multiplied eg. tri-sapta or tri-shapta"; hence seven Matris, 7 streams, 7 oceans, 7 cities ( R.V.1.63.7), 7 divisions of the world, 7 ranges of mountains, 7 rishis, 7 vipras - सप्त विप्रैः ( Rv 1.62.4), 7 Aditya's, Danavas, horses of the Sun, rays of the Sun..." etc. etc.

What is evident from the various contexts of its usage in the Rig Veda itself is that 'sapta' not only means seven, but also is used as well to express an idefinite plurality, or many

SINDHU

The next term, Sindhu, is the cause of many problems in the identification of the Vedic country. The word Sindhu is derived from the root 'syand', to flow, hence meaning 'river' or from the root 'sidh' meaning 'to go'. However, it is also the proper name of a mighty river called the Sindhu ( Indus), which is altogether different from the plural form sindhushu, or sindhava meaning 'rivers' that has the qualifier compound Sapta, meaning "Seven". A study of the various occurrences of Sindhu in the Rig veda clearly demonstrates that Sindhu of the Sapta Sindhushu/ Sapta Sindhava means 'river' in its etymological sense and it has nothing to do wit the Sindhu ( Indus) River. In fact, in all the occurrences of the word Sindhu in plural as for example Sindhavah, Sindhushu, Sindubhih, Sindhubyah, SindhUn, SindhunAm, etc. they stand for rivers or streams in general and not for the Indus itself. The proper rendering of the term Sapta Sindhusu/Sapta Sindhava, therefore, should be : The Land or The country of Seven rivers. However, the orientalist scholars who propounded the theory of Aryan Invasion or Migration have exploited the text and the Sanskrit vocable Sindhu to treat both the term Sapta Sindhushu and Sapta Sindhavah or its all other plural forms as meaning the Indus and its tributaries.
[... to be continued]

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Old May 31st, 2012, 08:15 AM   #77
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One viewpoint of the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization. More research is needed nevertheless..

Huge Ancient Civilization’s Collapse Explained

Quote:
The mysterious fall of the largest of the world's earliest urban civilizations nearly 4,000 years ago in what is now India, Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh now appears to have a key culprit — ancient climate change, researchers say.

Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia may be the best known of the first great urban cultures, but the largest was the Indus or Harappan civilization. This culture once extended over more than 386,000 square miles (1 million square kilometers) across the plains of the Indus River from the Arabian Sea to the Ganges, and at its peak may have accounted for 10 percent of the world population. The civilization developed about 5,200 years ago, and slowly disintegrated between 3,900 and 3,000 years ago — populations largely abandoned cities, migrating toward the east.

"Antiquity knew about Egypt and Mesopotamia, but the Indus civilization, which was bigger than these two, was completely forgotten until the 1920s," said researcher Liviu Giosan, a geologist at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts. "There are still many things we don't know about them."

Nearly a century ago, researchers began discovering numerous remains of Harappan settlements along the Indus River and its tributaries, as well as in a vast desert region at the border of India and Pakistan. Evidence was uncovered for sophisticated cities, sea links with Mesopotamia, internal trade routes, arts and crafts, and as-yet undeciphered writing.

"They had cities ordered into grids, with exquisite plumbing, which was not encountered again until the Romans," Giosan told LiveScience. "They seem to have been a more democratic society than Mesopotamia and Egypt — no large structures were built for important personalitiess like kings or pharaohs."

Like their contemporaries in Egypt and Mesopotamia, the Harappans, who were named after one of their largest cities, lived next to rivers.

"Until now, speculations abounded about the links between this mysterious ancient culture and its life-giving mighty rivers," Giosan said.

Now Giosan and his colleagues have reconstructed the landscape of the plain and rivers where this long-forgotten civilization developed. Their findings now shed light on the enigmatic fate of this culture.

"Our research provides one of the clearest examples of climate change leading to the collapse of an entire civilization," Giosan said.

The researchers first analyzed satellite data of the landscape influenced by the Indus and neighboring rivers. From 2003 to 2008, the researchers then collected samples of sediment from the coast of the Arabian Sea into the fertile irrigated valleys of Punjab and the northern Thar Desert to determine the origins and ages of those sediments and develop a timeline of landscape changes.

"It was challenging working in the desert — temperatures were over 110 degrees Fahrenheit all day long (43 degrees C)," Giosan recalled.

After collecting data on geological history, "we could reexamine what we know about settlements, what crops people were planting and when, and how both agriculture and settlement patterns changed," said researcher Dorian Fuller, an archaeologist with University College London. "This brought new insights into the process of eastward population shift, the change towards many more small farming communities, and the decline of cities during late Harappan times."

Some had suggested that the Harappan heartland received its waters from a large glacier-fed Himalayan river, thought by some to be the Sarasvati, a sacred river of Hindu mythology. However, the researchers found that only rivers fed by monsoon rains flowed through the region.

Previous studies suggest the Ghaggar, an intermittent river that flows only during strong monsoons, may best approximate the location of the Sarasvati. Archaeological evidence suggested the river, which dissipates into the desert along the dried course of Hakra valley, was home to intensive settlement during Harappan times.

"We think we settled a long controversy about the mythic Sarasvati River," Giosan said.

Initially, the monsoon-drenched rivers the researchers identified were prone to devastating floods. Over time, monsoons weakened, enabling agriculture and civilization to flourish along flood-fed riverbanks for nearly 2,000 years.

"The insolation — the solar energy received by the Earth from the sun — varies in cycles, which can impact monsoons," Giosan said. "In the last 10,000 years, the Northern Hemisphere had the highest insolation from 7,000 to 5,000 years ago, and since then insolation there decreased. All climate on Earth is driven by the sun, and so the monsoons were affected by the lower insolation, decreasing in force. This meant less rain got into continental regions affected by monsoons over time."

Eventually, these monsoon-based rivers held too little water and dried, making them unfavorable for civilization.

"The Harappans were an enterprising people taking advantage of a window of opportunity — a kind of "Goldilocks civilization," Giosan said.

Eventually, over the course of centuries, Harappans apparently fled along an escape route to the east toward the Ganges basin, where monsoon rains remained reliable.

"We can envision that this eastern shift involved a change to more localized forms of economy — smaller communities supported by local rain-fed farming and dwindling streams," Fuller said. "This may have produced smaller surpluses, and would not have supported large cities, but would have been reliable."

This change would have spelled disaster for the cities of the Indus, which were built on the large surpluses seen during the earlier, wetter era. The dispersal of the population to the east would have meant there was no longer a concentrated workforce to support urbanism.

"Cities collapsed, but smaller agricultural communities were sustainable and flourished," Fuller said. "Many of the urban arts, such as writing, faded away, but agriculture continued and actually diversified."

These findings could help guide future archaeological explorations of the Indus civilization. Researchers can now better guess which settlements might have been more significant, based on their relationships with rivers, Giosan said.

It remains uncertain how monsoons will react to modern climate change. "If we take the devastating floods that caused the largest humanitarian disaster in Pakistan's history as a sign of increased monsoon activity, than this doesn't bode well for the region," Giosan said. "The region has the largest irrigation scheme in the world, and all those dams and channels would become obsolete in the face of the large floods an increased monsoon would bring."

The scientists detailed their findings online May 28 in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
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Old May 31st, 2012, 04:28 PM   #78
satchitananda
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Originally Posted by barrykul View Post
One viewpoint of the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization. More research is needed nevertheless..
+1. This itself is a U-turn in international research community. From denying the existence of Sarasvati river to now saying it must have been a monsoonal river.

Major changes have been documented as Sahara desert changes itself into a lush green grassland and back due to earth's wobbling.

I wonder if this has any correlation to the conversion of the Thar desert. Also, wonder if a monsoonal river could have sustained such a large civilisation ?? There have been paleo channels discovered, connecting to the himalayas. This goes against the grain of this theory.

Another question will be, there is Indus and Ganges sustained by snow from himalayas. How only the intermittent portion alone was purely monsoonal river ??

Climate change is definitely at work, but the explanation seems bit off base.
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Old June 19th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #79
skganji
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Is Mittani Aryan language more archaic than Vedic ?. Credit - N. Kazanas.

Mitanni is an IA language which was spoken by the conquerors of the Near East Mitanni kingdom in the mid second millennium BCE. We do not have any large literature of this language. We have personal names, technical jargons used in horse training and some other IE words mentioned in the written records of the period.

Mitanni is claimed to be more archaic than Vedic based on the fact that the language uses ‘ai/au’ unlike ‘e/o’ in Vedic. The presence of ‘z’ (lost by Vedic) is shown as another evidence for the claim that Mitanni is older than RV.

This ‘evidence’ is neither a convincing proof for AIT nor does it go against OIT. The AIT scholars must understand that ‘PIE in India’ does not mean that every IE dialect emigrating out of India must have all the innovations found in Vedic. We have clearly stated that several IE dialects developed in India out of which Vedic was but one. Therefore, to apply a case of linear evolution to determine the age of Mitanni vis-a-vis Vedic appears to be unnecessary. Also, Mitanni does have certain Prakritizations which are not found in Sanskrit. For example, ‘sapta’ becomes ‘satta’ in Mitanni. Witzel claims that this has occurred due to the influence of Hurrite ‘sinti’ (seven)[xi]. Are we supposed to believe that the Hurrite word ‘influenced’ Prakritization of ‘sapta’? Can anyone derive the evolution of ‘sapta’ into ‘satta’ due to the influence of ‘sinti’? Another AIT proponent, Arnaud Fournet, stated that Hurrian does not have any word with the sound ‘-pt-‘ and hence, it had led to the term becoming ‘sapta’. While it does look like a better explanation, it is not much better than that of Witzel. Hurrian does not have the ‘-dr-’ sound either. But we find that the Mitanni have written ‘indra’ as ‘indara’. ‘Indra’ did not become ‘Inara’ (as in Anatolian). Similar change could be expected in ‘sapta’ as well (into ‘sapata’). But what we see here is a case of Prakritization (of ‘sapta’ evolving into ‘satta’). This shows that Mitanni cannot be called as ‘completely pre-RV’ without any reservations.

Moreover, there is the problem of comparing a written language of mid second millennium BCE with RV (whose final redaction and standardization occured around 700 BCE). It is well known that some changes in pronunciation did occur in RV prior to its final redaction. It is very much possible that the changes like ‘ai>e’, ‘au>o’, ‘azdh’>’edh’ etc. could have occurred before the final redaction of RV.

But the most important issue which is not considered by the AIT proponents is this: OIT does not require Mitanni to be a descendant of RV language. We have already stated that various IE dialects were present in the subcontinent (and not just Vedic). Therefore, to claim that RV is younger than Mitanni as Mitanni does not show certain innovations found in Vedic is based on faulty assumptions. It is very much possible that Vedic did some innovations which were not passed to its western neighbours (just as Iranian innovations did not affect Vedic).

Most of the AIT arguments against OIT have been based on a wrong assumption that any dialect which emigrates from India should include all the innovations of Vedic until that time. Thus, the basic assumption is that OIT means ‘there was one uniform linear evolution of PIE in the subcontinent’. But we have already shown above that OIT believes in a scenario where several IE dialects evolved within the subcontinent. Hence, all these arguments about Mitanni not having the innovations of Vedic do not affect OIT in any manner.

Instead of looking at the ‘sounds’, if we look at the words, then we arrive at a completely different picture. Talageri[xii] shows that Mitanni shows the late RV innovations in names (e.g. ‘priya-‘, ‘-atithi’, ‘-asva’, ‘-ratha’, ‘-medha’ etc.). Most importantly, these ‘innovations’ are completely absent in the early RV. He has shown that not one Mitanni type name is found in the early and middle RV. It is possible that some ‘old names’ may not be mentioned in early RV but came to be mentioned only in the late RV. But to argue that not even one of the Mitanni names were not mentioned in early RV (despite them being in use) is sounds like a ‘conspiracy theory’. In fact, such a situation is simply implausible.
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Old July 12th, 2012, 11:36 PM   #80
skganji
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Please accept the truth that there is not one Sanskrit inscription any where in the world that predates CE.


If you disagree with this please provide scientific evidence. Please do not just provide literary or heresay evidence.
Here is another evidence to prove that Sanskrit inscriptions existed before CE. This entire section can be found on Page 86 and 87 of the book : Indian Epigraphy by Richard Salomon.

The earliest Sanskrit inscriptions

It is , in the words of Louis Renou, "le grand paradoxe linquistique de l'Inde" that Sanskrit, the linguistic parent of MIA, first appeared in inscriptions much later than its own descendants. For Sanskrit began into epigrahic use only in the first century B.C,according to the now generally accepted dating ( mainly on paleographic gorunds) for the oldest Sanskrit inscriptions, namely, the Ayodhya ( SI I.94-5) and the Ghosundi ( SI I.90 - 1) and Hathibada ( EI 22, 198-205) stone inscriptions.
The Ayodhya inscription records in two lines of essentially standard Sanskrit the foundation by the "righteous king" ( dharmarajna) Dhana [* deva ?] of a structure ( Ketanam) in memory of his father Phalgudeva. The formation of the compound dharmarajna instead of the theoretically correct dharmarajena is of no great consequence, since compounds of this type are found frequently in less formal registers of Sanskrit. Also worthy of note is the apparent use of the genitive instead of the ablative in pusyamitrasya sasthena, assuming that the usual interpretation as "sixth[in descent] of [i.e., 'from']...." is correct. But here , too, the intrusion of the stronger genitive case into the domain of weaker ablative is not uncommon in informal Sanskrit usage.
The three inscriptions from Hathibada and one from Ghosundi are all seperate renderings of the same text, recording the construction of a structure for the worship of the dieties Samkarsana and Vasudeva. The text, which except for the begining of the first line can be reconstructed from the four extant fragmentary versions is again in essentially "correct" Sanskrit with few possible exceptions. For instance, the word accompanying the names samkarsana-vasudevabhyam is spelled bhagavabhyam instead of the expected bhagavadabhyam in both versions ( Hathibada A and Ghosundi) in which it is preserved; but this may be no more than a scribal error ( cf . EI 22, 201). Also, it has been suggested ( SI I,19 n. 1) that the donor's personal name, given as sarvata,"may be actually Sarvatrata". But this is uncertain , as the king in question is otherwise unknown, and even if the inscription did record a prakritic form of the ruler's name this would be of no great linguistic import, since personal names are frequently record in Prakritic forms in Sanskrit inscriptions.
In conclusion, then, the language of the Hathibada-Ghosundi inscriptions, like that of Ayodhya, is esentially standard Sanskrit, though with some margianl indications of informal usage and style.

Note : The paleographic estimate of a date in the first century B.C is corrobarated by the statement that the donor is the "sixth [ in descent] of [i.e, from : cf. SI I.95 n.3] General Pusyamitra" ( senapateh pusyamitrasya sasthena) , since the Pusyamitra referred is presumably the founder of the Sunga dynasty in ca, 187 B.C.

The father's name is : Phalgudeva. The king who is named in the Ayodhya inscription is "Dhana". However, the full name of this king could be Dhanadeva as the author suggests.

Abbreviations used in this above section .
EI - Epigraphia Indica
SI - D.C. Sircar, Select Inscriptions

Image of the Hathi-Bada sanskrit Inscription in Brahmi script from 1st Century BCE can be seen below.


Last edited by skganji; July 18th, 2012 at 01:27 AM.
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