Midland Main Line electrification

[ill tonkso]

Originally Posted by Vulcan's Finest

Well, if Woking - Waterloo ever get wires it might then make sense. The route isn't well aligned, but 25KV would offer decent journey time cuts.

It needs tilting stock. It is one of the fastest growing routes in the south, jam packed north of Haslemere.

[NCT]

Am I right in thinking lines into Exeter are not getting electrification?

[zfreeman]

Originally Posted by CharlieP

According to the BBC it's even more revolutionary than that - they're moving Sheffield to East Yorkshire!!

Coventry has also been moved more to the North and East too.....

[Vulcan's Finest]

Originally Posted by ill tonkso

It needs tilting stock. It is one of the fastest growing routes in the south, jam packed north of Haslemere.

The problem with tilting trains is:

1) They are very cramped due to sloping bodysides restricting headroom.
2) They cost a lot more to buy or lease and cost more in track access charges.
3) The tilting equipment adds weight and complexity, meaning slower acceleration and lower reliability. You also need expensive trackside ballises.
4) It increases wear to rails on curves.

So it is by no means a free lunch in engineering terms. 25KV wires would probably cut 5 minutes between Woking and Havant due to better acceleration from stops and ability to go faster on the less curvy bits - tilting I guess would only cut a few more minutes from the schedules. IMHO it is unlikely to make financial sense on such a short route where the trains stop frequently. The two routes I think it might make sense on is the MML and Transpennine between Liverpool and York. However it also reduces line capacity....

[zfreeman]

Originally Posted by makita09

i predict that the next announcements will be more locally oriented around the midlands and northern conurbations, before sheffield - leeds/doncaster, which i imagine will be announced along with bristol - derby i a few years time.

Electrifying some of the more local services in South Yorkshire would be a waste of time, really the only route to consider electrifying is the Sheffield-Rotherham- Doncaster. If the funds are there it would also potentially be worthwhile maybe electrifying ONE of the routes from Sheffield to Leeds, especially if the other is the route of HS2.

Personally I would like to see HS2 routed via Barnsley (and maybe an occasionally stopping service ) and the Dearne Valley route electrified, to further boost regeneration in the valley.

[Leeds No.1]

Originally Posted by zfreeman

If the funds are there it would also potentially be worthwhile maybe electrifying ONE of the routes from Sheffield to Leeds, especially if the other is the route of HS2.

It would make sense to electrify the 25km between Sheffield and Moorthorpe to connect two electrified regions. It would allow:

- Electric EMT services from Leeds - London
- Diversionary route for East Coast services between Leeds - London
- Electric local Leeds - Sheffield/Nottingham services
- EMT services to access Neville Hill depot
- Electric Edinburgh/Newcastle - Sheffield - Nottingham/Derby services

[makita09]

Originally Posted by zfreeman

Electrifying some of the more local services in South Yorkshire would be a waste of time, really the only route to consider electrifying is the Sheffield-Rotherham- Doncaster. If the funds are there it would also potentially be worthwhile maybe electrifying ONE of the routes from Sheffield to Leeds, especially if the other is the route of HS2.

Personally I would like to see HS2 routed via Barnsley (and maybe an occasionally stopping service ) and the Dearne Valley route electrified, to further boost regeneration in the valley.

It wouldn't be, any more than electrifying the Shipley routes was a waste of time.

[Ashtonian]

Originally Posted by makita09

It wouldn't be, any more than electrifying the Shipley routes was a waste of time.

Do you mean that the enhanced services only served to boost Leeds' economy?

[CharlieP]

Originally Posted by zfreeman

Coventry has also been moved more to the North and East too.....

As has Derby.

[makita09]

Originally Posted by Ashtonian

Do you mean that the enhanced services only served to boost Leeds' economy?

All I mean is that the south and south-east of Leeds local services are suitable for possible electrification. At the moment the services are infrequent and slow, I feel that they should be spruced up. There are lots of freight routes through the area which could also benefit, adding impetus imo.

[Leeds No.1]

Originally Posted by makita09

It wouldn't be, any more than electrifying the Shipley routes was a waste of time.

Are you being serious?

Nearly 80% of journeys in Airedale and Wharfedale into Leeds are now made by rail. Rail growth has boomed because of this electrification, with six carriage trains now required to cope with the numbers.

It transformed the Leeds NW commuter belt and North Bradford, and allowed electric London services to be extended to Skipton and Bradford. Future infilling between Carlisle and Shipley could see a third electrified London - Glasgow route too, often used for diesel-hauled diversions when there are problems on the WCML.

[zfreeman]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

Are you being serious?

Nearly 80% of journeys in Airedale and Wharfedale into Leeds are now made by rail. Rail growth has boomed because of this electrification, with six carriage trains now required to cope with the numbers.

It transformed the Leeds NW commuter belt and North Bradford, and allowed electric London services to be extended to Skipton and Bradford. Future infilling between Carlisle and Shipley could see a third electrified London - Glasgow route too, often used for diesel-hauled diversions when there are problems on the WCML.

The Airedale and Wharfdale lines are one of the few non-mainline services that have actually increased in usage, and one that has seen a move from 2 carriages to 4 carriages and now 6 carriages, and one that has seen stations reopened, since the 1980's the airedale line has seen 2 stations reopened with another 3 coming online during the course of this year. Wharfdale has seen 2 reopenings and another coming online at the end of this year.They have also seen increases in trains per hour.

Given the populations of South and West Yorkshire are broadly similiar I don't see why electrification won't see the same happening in South Yorkshire especially along the main stretch between Sheffield and Doncaster as well as the Hallam, Penistone and Dearne Valley Lines.

[CalumCookable]

Originally Posted by zfreeman

The Airedale and Wharfdale lines are one of the few non-mainline services that have actually increased in usage

lolwut. If you look up almost any British station on Wikipedia, you can see that the passenger numbers have gone up. Passenger numbers are booming across the network, despite poor frequency and crap trains in many cases. A station with static or declining traffic is an oddity, not the norm.

[zfreeman]

Originally Posted by CalumCookable

lolwut. If you look up almost any British station on Wikipedia, you can see that the passenger numbers have gone up. Passenger numbers are booming across the network, despite poor frequency and crap trains in many cases. A station with static or declining traffic is an oddity, not the norm.

More so than the usual increase I meant.

[tg1980]

Originally Posted by NCT

Am I right in thinking lines into Exeter are not getting electrification?

Correct.

P.s. there are lines (and cities/towns) beyond Exeter as well!

[makita09]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

Are you being serious?

Nearly 80% of journeys in Airedale and Wharfedale into Leeds are now made by rail. Rail growth has boomed because of this electrification, with six carriage trains now required to cope with the numbers.

It transformed the Leeds NW commuter belt and North Bradford, and allowed electric London services to be extended to Skipton and Bradford. Future infilling between Carlisle and Shipley could see a third electrified London - Glasgow route too, often used for diesel-hauled diversions when there are problems on the WCML.

Yes I know, that was my point

Electrifying some of the more local services in South Yorkshire would be a waste of time said Zfreeman. No it wouldn't be, said I, etc etc.

[Jon10]

A general question about what automatic train protection we are installing across the whole NR network:

Is it the case (very possibly not) that there is a system that we decided not to install, even though it would bring trains to a complete stop automatically, and we ARE installing a version of the European standard (ERTMS) which allows greater density of traffic, but which may only slow trains down to a low speed before, at worst, a collision?

.
UPDATE: This is an old reference to the subject: http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2003/c03004.htm