Oslo developement thread

[Spearman]

Old pet peeve of mine:
http://www.aftenposten.no/okonomi/Bo...p-6953361.html

[Osloborger]

I like this comment from Erling Dokk Holm:
- Det er ingen boligmangel i Norge

[OnTheNorthRoad]

Rett og slett forfriskende klarsynt.

[Registered_User]

More views...
Utbyggere vil ikke bygge utenfor Oslo sentrum
Tog kan løse boligkrisen i Oslo
Oslo ikke i nærheten av å bygge boligene som trengs

[ArtVandelay]

Interesting read!

I believe there are a couple of key points that must be done to solve the appartment shortage in Oslo.

1. New developments need to be taller then what is built today. 2-3 extra floors in new buildings in areas established living areas. Big new development areas should be 8-12 floors hight.

2. Build close to metro or trainstations. Reduce parking to avoid to much traffic.

[Osloborger]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

Interesting read!

I believe there are a couple of key points that must be done to solve the appartment shortage in Oslo.

1. New developments need to be taller then what is built today. 2-3 extra floors in new buildings in areas established living areas. Big new development areas should be 8-12 floors hight.

2. Build close to metro or trainstations. Reduce parking to avoid to much traffic.

(I disagree on the reduce parking suggestion. Keep the capacity, but regulate the usage through pricing.)

3. Build urban blocks/street grids.

[Registered_User]

Interesting reading indeed!
There sure are many sides and reasons for the current lack of apartments in Oslo.

There is probably plenty of space and areas regulated for housing in the city, but few in the city center area where most people would like to live and property developers find it worthy to build. Just look at areas like Gjersrud-Stensrud which have been regulated for housing for 50'ish years, and nothing have been built so far.

Most people would like to have easy access to work/school, shopping, coffee bars, restaurants, cultural service (concerts, cinema, theater, nightlife, ..). Since Oslo is heavily built around just one city center, with little to no activity after 5pm in the suburbs, it is no surprise that people would like to live close to the city center and not in far out suburbs.
It does not help the case that a lot of the larger companies who employ thousands of people are located in the city center as well.
Then of course there is the lack of focus on public transportation. The current network works pretty good, but both the subway and trams have too few lines and are heavily overcrowded. Little have changed since the 1960s. It also seems that delays is more common than to be on time.

Then there is of course all the new building technical requirements which makes new apartments several 100-thousand kroner more expensive. Like balanced ventilation, external heating source, elevator, turning circle for wheelchair in all rooms, insulation, and more.
In most suburbs these regulations make new building more expensive to build than the current market value of existing apartment, and hence it is not economically worth it for the property developers.
Plus the building regulations within Ring road 3. Minimum 50% of the apartments to be 80m2 or larger, minimum 40m2 and maximum 20% 1-bedroom.

I believe our politicians will need to:
- Make a new master city plan, as the current one from the 1930s have done its job.
- Seriously focus on strengthening the public transportation system.
- Focus on building smaller city centers with cultural services in north, east, south and west.
- Regulate more ground for housing close to the city center. How about Lodalen, Sjursøya and Filipstad?

Build a great public transportation system, then develop more or less self-running suburbs with most services within the area. Work, cinema, shopping, nightlife, ... and people will most probably want to life there.

[Olabil]

Agree on all points!

Still today politicians believe that urban development outside Ring 2 should be detached blocks with green areas on all sides of the building. Which also results in no commercial centers for the suburbs except for the random, boring "bydelssenter" where you can visit a supermarket and your grandma can buy her evening dress.

Is it that hard to see that Norwegians wants the same as most of the European suburbs have had since the start of the industrialization; pubs and restaurants (kebab shops not included) within walking distance. And perhaps a center with cinema, bowling alleys etc. A place were different generations and nationalities can meet and interact.

I am so fed up at reading articles about politicians and others telling us that it`s not a human right to live within Ring 2, without even thinking about why people actually wants to live there.

[Registered_User]

Meanwhile, the prices keep on increasing...
Ny prisoppgang - E24
Boligmarkedet koker i sommer - DittOslo
Boligprisene til Obos har økt med 12,5% siden juni 2011 - DittOslo

The apartment prices in Oslo increased with 9,3 % from July 2011 to July 2012. Not necessarily a bad thing for those of us who own one of these apartment, but a serious hurdle for those who stand on the sideline wanting to buy their own place.

Hmmm....

[UrbanLife]

Originally Posted by Registered_User

Meanwhile, the prices keep on increasing...
Ny prisoppgang - E24
Boligmarkedet koker i sommer - DittOslo
Boligprisene til Obos har økt med 12,5% siden juni 2011 - DittOslo

The apartment prices in Oslo increased with 9,3 % from July 2011 to July 2012. Not necessarily a bad thing for those of us who own one of these apartment, but a serious hurdle for those who stand on the sideline wanting to buy their own place.

Hmmm....

It´s not necessary a good thing for you that the prices rises. Let me give you this example. Your apartment worth 2 MNOK rises to 2,2 MNOK. The next apartment you plan to buy costed 4 MNOK at the time you bought your first. But while you think you´ve made money, the 4 MNOK apartment has rose to 4,4 MNOK (given a similar growth rate).

Let me then ask - have you really profited?

Us owning several apartments in the other hand..

[IceCheese]

Originally Posted by UrbanLife

It´s not necessary a good thing for you that the prices rises. Let me give you this example. Your apartment worth 2 MNOK rises to 2,2 MNOK. The next apartment you plan to buy costed 4 MNOK at the time you bought your first. But while you think you´ve made money, the 4 MNOK apartment has rose to 4,4 MNOK (given a similar growth rate).

Let me then ask - have you really profited?

Us owning several apartments in the other hand..

But my own 34 sqm apartment has had a much higher growth in price than the 60-90 sqm apartments in the same building. So I'm closer to a bigger apartment now, than I was three years ago.

[Registered_User]

Originally Posted by UrbanLife

It´s not necessary a good thing for you that the prices rises. Let me give you this example. Your apartment worth 2 MNOK rises to 2,2 MNOK. The next apartment you plan to buy costed 4 MNOK at the time you bought your first. But while you think you´ve made money, the 4 MNOK apartment has rose to 4,4 MNOK (given a similar growth rate).

Let me then ask - have you really profited?

Thats why I wrote "Not necessarily a bad thing".
All depending on if or when we decide to realize the investment, and of course what we plan to do next. If selling and buying (upgrading) in the same market the gap may be larger, hence no real benefit. But there is also a fact that small apartments have a higher increase than large apartments, due to supply/demand. Meaning our equity may have increased more than the step up to a larger apartment.

For all we know I may sell my apartment in Oslo, then move and buy a new apartment in Greece or Spain.

[Spearman]

Originally Posted by Registered_User

Thats why I wrote "Not necessarily a bad thing".
All depending on if or when we decide to realize the investment, and of course what we plan to do next. If selling and buying (upgrading) in the same market the gap may be larger, hence no real benefit. But there is also a fact that small apartments have a higher increase than large apartments, due to supply/demand. Meaning our equity may have increased more than the step up to a larger apartment.

For all we know I may sell my apartment in Oslo, then move and buy a new apartment in Greece or Spain.

I can't imagine why it wouldn't be a bad thing to have to pay more for the same. In the long run those same people left behind will drag the economy down for all of us.

[Registered_User]

Originally Posted by Spearman

I can't imagine why it wouldn't be a bad thing to have to pay more for the same. In the long run those same people left behind will drag the economy down for all of us.

Well, another example.
Lets say I am 55 years old, bought my apartment in 1990 for 1 million. The same apartment is currently worth 4 millions and the value keep on increasing by ~10 percent annually. By the time I retire in 2020 the apartment may be worth 7 millions. An equity I then realize and bring with me to ex. Spain.

I don't see how it can be bad to have 7 instead of 4 millions to buy an apartment and live off down there.
Of course it may be bad for others, but as I originally said it is "not necessarily a bad thing for those of us who own one of these apartment".



Edit: Of course it is a bad thing for those who plan to buy their first apartment some time in the future.
I remember that back in 1993 I could buy a given apartment for 1 annual income, and today I would have to pay around 4 annual incomes for the same. 20 years from now on it may be 8-10 annual incomes - we never know.

[Registered_User]

Another consequence of the growing population is the lack of a proper drinking water source. Maridalsvannet which currently supply 90% of Oslo drinking water demand is pushed to the limits.

Oslo tørster etter mer drikkevann

The result may be a 20-30km tunnel to Holsfjorden. It will be expensive for sure, but probably a necessity.

[Mr. Love Architectur]

Must say i really enjoy these kind of debates and see them as a real opportunity to inform and debate as to which and where the development is best suited for Oslo.

I would also really like to see pictures in the debates to build upon the arguments for which kind of quartely buildings we want, and which kind of local centers actually seem to be a success as of today. Places like Ullevål arbeiderboliger and Tøyen Hageby versus Grunerløkka f.ex. These are totally different neighbourhoods, but in their own way very successfull!

I have to say i agree with a lot of what youre debatting "Registered User".

What i would want in a Masterplan and local citycenter plan.

1. Every new developments needs to be based on quarterly buildings! But a much more focus on diversity within each quarter. (ala Tjuvholmen principle).
- Downtown Oslo needs to see at least 5-10 more highrises exclusively designated for apartments (not all highrises should be hotels or businesses).
- Areas with good infrastructure needs to have more highrises, BUT whithin a quarterly structure, and differentiate buildings to add quality in exterior and esthectic.
- A lot more focus on green rooftops
- VERY IMPORTANT; go away from wheelchair demands space in absolutely every toilet and hallway.
- Also go away from minimum 40 sqm apartments.
- think new in regards to hallways in apartments, why not skip it entirely and entrance leads directly into the living room!

2. Huge areas needs to look at height issues.
- Be open when huge areas are available. f.ex that 5+2 regulations, and where suitable spire like towers with higher standards in regards to exterior!
- i see no problem with letting one and other tower with say 10 + 6 storeys tall buildings with apartments. but spires are important, and escpecially high quality exterior stone or other suitable esthetic materials.

3. Lodalen, Groruddalen, Grønlikaia, Ormsund, Årvoll, Nydalen.
- All of these areas can become fantastic city areas if the right planning and esthetic and material buildings are used.
- The amount of apartments that can potentially be placed in these areas are vast and numerous.
- The amount of apartments should be given, if the project is of higher quality than what many many of the socalled within reguilations have been approved, we could see new and fantastic areas become popular. (Wexels Plass and some others have proven to be very very not successfull, but sold due to the very high need for apartments!)

4. Kvadraturen and downtown areas.
- I have no problem with allowing towers with both 20 or 30 floors on some of the places in downtown, GIVEN that they have the following criterias:
1. High exterior quality, (approval based from Architecture council?)
2. Very large apartments on top, 100-400 sqm (25-30th floor)
3. 80-150 sqm from say (15-25th floor)
4. 40-80 sqm from 7-15th floor.
5. 25-50 sqm from 3-7th floor.
6. 1-3 businesses and a must on boutiques and pubs/restaurant in 1st floor.

5. The total amount of apartments built every year has to be at least 4-5000 started build.
- Fast pace committees in Plan and bygningsrådet as well as byrådet so that big projects gets priority.
- All projects over regulations needs to go through architecture council.
- i dont think we can say that city infills has gotten more beautiful with all the constraints that lay upon developers today. I think exterior quality and the fact that they try to squeze in as many apartments as possible!

6. Selvaag has got a point that is very very important. Westside of the city needs to take into account that the city is growing, and certain areas here also needs to get a lot more development. If not there will only lead to the conclusion that eastside will only get more stigmatized for having high buildings and % used. A lot of areas westside in Oslo could easily get more quarterly buildings. Everyone keeps saying Groruddalen, and yes there is most potential here, but westside has a lot of potential as well.

My dream view over Kvadraturen in 50 years, or Groruddalen for that matter.

Picture is from Upper East side in New York. I have been there myself and think its a marvellous city landscape with excellent living conditions. I dont think Oslo should go for massive 100-150 meters and up buildings, but individual buildings with excellent architectural value and living conditions. And not in clusters.

[Mr. Love Architectur]

Yesterdays walk to Barcode.

Forgot to take pictures of the road work at Dronning Eufemias gate, as it seems to progress nicely.





On a happy not 4000 sqm of sedum roofs have now been layed out over Barcode buildings so far! not bad! KLP, DNB middle building and Visma.

[Mr. Love Architectur]

Oslo Kommune considering establishing an aquarium at the Dockside at Paulsenkaia.

Concept and possibility study first though.

http://www.bygg.no/2012/08/92110.0

info gotten from www.bygg.no

[Registered_User]

Yes, Mr. Love Architectur we certainly talk the same language.
I think it all went wrong back in the 1960s when they started building Groruddalen with those sterile "east-european" concrete blocks, with no local citycenter in between. At least back in the early 1900s when they developed areas like Majorstua and Torshov they made an effort, as they built local cinemas, theaters and main streets with shops, cafés, restaurants, parks, and more. They are not directly comparable due to distance to the city center, but we all know which places are more attractive and have higher housing prices these days...

We desperately need a new Masterplan, with focus on what we know people want like local city centers, parks, shopping, restaurants, easy access to public transportation, and more.

I am for highrises myself, as long as they blend in with the surrounding buildings. Not sure what is the highest residential building in Oslo, but there sure are few above 12-14 floors. Even in lower grounds like Kværnerbyen they limit themselves to 6 floors (I think), and could easily have put 2-3 more floors without hurting the neighbors view much.

I also support Selvaag that the city need development on the west side as well. There are thousand of large apple-alleys which could be developed into living areas.

[starkwell]

Originally Posted by Registered_User

Most people would like to have easy access to work/school, shopping, coffee bars, restaurants, cultural service (concerts, cinema, theater, nightlife, ..). Since Oslo is heavily built around just one city center, with little to no activity after 5pm in the suburbs, it is no surprise that people would like to live close to the city center and not in far out suburbs.

I don't think this is strictly true...

take sandvika for an example, this could easily be a significant suburban hub, there are the faciliites you mention (concert hall, shops (some) nightlife/restaurants) given its lowish population this could be construed as activity - and were it to have a denser population great potential to increase in these areas

the problem isn't that such areas don't exist, the problem is that the locals and the local authorities don't want to share them with large numbers of an expanding city's population.