TRANSPORT | Metrolink

[apologiesforthedelay]

Originally Posted by martin2345uk

From what I understand the TMS in operation on the Eccles line is the final up to date version. Yes it only goes from Eccles to Pomona but on the SML it's even less extensive and they've managed to get the PIDs working fine there, so why not Eccles?

And they work on the Oldham line too.

So the Radio Antenna things that help locate trams for the PIDs are obviously active within the city centre.

[Freel07]

Originally Posted by nidave

Is it not because TMS is being used for the location of the trams and only knows where they are up to Pannoma?

I would also assume that TMS makes a decision on where to put the tram when it gets to Media City UK. It might hold it before the spur or put it into a platform.. I assume there is some logic at work depending on timings and timetables. - actually thinking about it the logic is not that hard to work out.

This is all a guess (and I am very interested in how it all works). I would assume once TMS knows where the trams are at all times it will be able to decide earlier (potentially hours) if a tram has to go into the 2nd platform then show things on the PID's and put it on the correct PID.

Also as to the PID's on the eccels line. is this not due to the fact they are using a modified (or earlier) version of TMS.

How reliable is the LOS system in the city centre (cant remember the name) - is there not a way to use that over the rest of the network.. if not is it a technical issue, programming issue or just the system is out of date?

Th TMS relies on wired loops and WiFi 'virtual' loops to track the trams. Whilst you can't see the wired ones you can see the antennae for the virtual loops on the OLE poles around the system. The PIDS needs the data from these to provide accurate times for the trams. Certainly all the Eccles, SML and ORL lines have full positioning info now and I think the City has. Why Eccles Line PIDS are not in use I don't know.

The old system in the City is known as VRS and is actually obsolete and it would be almost impossible to upgrade to deal with all the Phase 3 lines. The new kit retrofitted to the M5000s is based on VRS but is actually a modification of the Nottingham TLS system reversed engineered to work with VRS trackside equipment. It is reliable but inflexible is the best summary I think.

[mackenziesoley]

Originally Posted by martin2345uk

From what I understand the TMS in operation on the Eccles line is the final up to date version. Yes it only goes from Eccles to Pomona but on the SML it's even less extensive and they've managed to get the PIDs working fine there, so why not Eccles?

Is Eccles the latest final version as didn't they say some work was needed on the SML/ORL when full TMS comes in?

[Kofieye]

FINALLY got myself onto a double M5000, 3022 & 3038 at Timperley. Yay )) Alty and Eccles lines seem deserted this morn...

[Freel07]

I've noticed a new twist on the coupled M5000 saga this morning. Twice this morning I have seen 3019 and 3023 as a pair running into Altrincham with the front tram (3023) displaying Altriincham and the rear (3019) displaying Out of Service. On their departure inbound to Bury they both display Bury. It seems they are running southbound with the rear tram out of service all the way to Altrincham.

Edit

It must just be that pair as I have just seen 3040/3037 arrive with both trams dispaying Altrincham.

[Freel07]

Originally Posted by mackenziesoley

Is Eccles the latest final version as didn't they say some work was needed on the SML/ORL when full TMS comes in?

I don't think there is such a thing as the 'latest final' version Mac. I think the changes referred to are more related to the actual signal control than the location system. eccles as far as I know runs the same S/W version as SML and ORL.

[Manchester77]

When Altrincham Line gets TMS will it be line of site Cornbrook - Trafford bar, signals for SML and depot, line of site old Trafford - timperly, signals for timperly siding and single line?
Cos if it isn't I really do not get TMS

[Freel07]

Originally Posted by Manchester77

When Altrincham Line gets TMS will it be line of site Cornbrook - Trafford bar, signals for SML and depot, line of site old Trafford - timperly, signals for timperly siding and single line?
Cos if it isn't I really do not get TMS

No the final implementation will be TMS all through from Bury to Altrincham with all signals replaced by TMS. It will happen in stages with Timperley to Altrincham being the last stage I imagine. I would expect that the focus is on doing what is necessary to get ORL and EML open before going too deeply into converting the existing lines as the political pressure will be enormous. Obviously that will need more retrofitted M5000s but compared to risking more chaos on Phase 1 that is probably small fry!

[nidave]

Originally Posted by Freel07

I don't think there is such a thing as the 'latest final' version Mac. I think the changes referred to are more related to the actual signal control than the location system. eccles as far as I know runs the same S/W version as SML and ORL.

Did Eccels open with TMS place? I thought it was a variation on the VRS system?

[mackenziesoley]

Originally Posted by Freel07

I've noticed a new twist on the coupled M5000 saga this morning. Twice this morning I have seen 3019 and 3023 as a pair running into Altrincham with the front tram (3023) displaying Altriincham and the rear (3019) displaying Out of Service. On their departure inbound to Bury they both display Bury. It seems they are running southbound with the rear tram out of service all the way to Altrincham.

Edit

It must just be that pair as I have just seen 3040/3037 arrive with both trams dispaying Altrincham.

I wonder if it's a new software update?

Originally Posted by Freel07

I don't think there is such a thing as the 'latest final' version Mac. I think the changes referred to are more related to the actual signal control than the location system. eccles as far as I know runs the same S/W version as SML and ORL.

Ah I see, then again with the unique interfaces on each lines means the software is set up slightly differently does it? Ie it's a v 3.03.xx for each version of TMS if you get my meaning?

Originally Posted by Freel07

No the final implementation will be TMS all through from Bury to Altrincham with all signals replaced by TMS. It will happen in stages with Timperley to Altrincham being the last stage I imagine. I would expect that the focus is on doing what is necessary to get ORL and EML open before going too deeply into converting the existing lines as the political pressure will be enormous. Obviously that will need more retrofitted M5000s but compared to risking more chaos on Phase 1 that is probably small fry!

Once the City Center is done wont they just need enough dual system (can't think of a better way to describe it) to do the Bury/Altrincham to Piccadilly/Ashton which they have now anyway?

Then again if TMS could be live in the City Center (far as Trafford Bar and Queens Road) tomorrow, in theory they could withdraw every T68 and use purely M5000?

[Kofieye]

Originally Posted by Freel07

I've noticed a new twist on the coupled M5000 saga this morning. Twice this morning I have seen 3019 and 3023 as a pair running into Altrincham with the front tram (3023) displaying Altriincham and the rear (3019) displaying Out of Service. On their departure inbound to Bury they both display Bury. It seems they are running southbound with the rear tram out of service all the way to Altrincham.

Edit

It must just be that pair as I have just seen 3040/3037 arrive with both trams dispaying Altrincham.

Just seen the pair 3023 & 3019 inbound at Victoria with "Not in Service" on the rear unit. Dunno what it said on the front one, but the rear was, as usual, empty.

[Freel07]

Originally Posted by nidave

Did Eccels open with TMS place? I thought it was a variation on the VRS system?

No Eccles opened in 1999/2000 with the VRS system for street use.

[Freel07]

Originally Posted by mackenziesoley

Ah I see, then again with the unique interfaces on each lines means the software is set up slightly differently does it? Ie it's a v 3.03.xx for each version of TMS if you get my meaning?


Once the City Center is done wont they just need enough dual system (can't think of a better way to describe it) to do the Bury/Altrincham to Piccadilly/Ashton which they have now anyway?

The software is global across the whole system, every location runs the same softare. The system is modular with each individual function being a seperate module. All locations possess all modules. The 'geographical' configuration is held in local data which call up the correct modules for each site and allocates the identities of all signals, points and loops etc. The concept is the same in most electronic control systems. Even SSI and IECC are made up this way.

As for the effect of converting the city centre until the whole system between Queens Road and Old Trafford including Piccadilly is converted the will need dual equipped trams for all services.

[LNGCats]

Freel, been away and am coming back to what seems to be less negative news on TMS.

Would I be correct in reading between the lines that you are reporting that there is now more confidence that TMS is working and that it can now be slowly rolled out across the network with confidence?

[bogblaster]

Originally Posted by Freel07

I've noticed a new twist on the coupled M5000 saga this morning. Twice this morning I have seen 3019 and 3023 as a pair running into Altrincham with the front tram (3023) displaying Altriincham and the rear (3019) displaying Out of Service. On their departure inbound to Bury they both display Bury. It seems they are running southbound with the rear tram out of service all the way to Altrincham.

Edit

It must just be that pair as I have just seen 3040/3037 arrive with both trams dispaying Altrincham.

Certainly last week when I used this line, with double M5000s, the rear unit was locked out at Bury and displayed "Not in Service". But passengers disembarked from that unit at Altrincham. I did notice at several stations from Bury into Manchester, though I wasn't paying attention at all, announcements were made from the control room advising that the "front unit only" should be used.

[Bradfordian2]

Originally Posted by Freel07

I've noticed a new twist on the coupled M5000 saga this morning. Twice this morning I have seen 3019 and 3023 as a pair running into Altrincham with the front tram (3023) displaying Altriincham and the rear (3019) displaying Out of Service. On their departure inbound to Bury they both display Bury. It seems they are running southbound with the rear tram out of service all the way to Altrincham.

Edit

It must just be that pair as I have just seen 3040/3037 arrive with both trams dispaying Altrincham.

I have witnessed a double M5000 enter St Peter's Square southbound with the leading unit showing 'Altrincham' and the trailing showing 'Not in service' Both units took on passengers at the stop, but the combination departed onwards with the trailing unit still showing 'Not in service'. So I would suggest that all the double M5000s are loading normally at St Peter's Square, it is purely the destination display of the rear unit which, for whatever reason, is not always updating.

[nidave]

Originally Posted by Freel07

The software is global across the whole system, every location runs the same softare. The system is modular with each individual function being a seperate module. All locations possess all modules. The 'geographical' configuration is held in local data which call up the correct modules for each site and allocates the identities of all signals, points and loops etc. The concept is the same in most electronic control systems. Even SSI and IECC are made up this way.

As for the effect of converting the city centre until the whole system between Queens Road and Old Trafford including Piccadilly is converted the will need dual equipped trams for all services.

With an LOS service I would think there is more "Bunching" of trams. Do you know if the software is designed to keep a consistent service in play. i.e. turn back trams to regulate the service or would this have to be done manually (as is currently the case).

Are the TMS issues trying to get it working reliably and consistently behaving in the same way?

(as you can tell this is one of my main areas of interest)

[mackenziesoley]

Originally Posted by nidave

With an LOS service I would think there is more "Bunching" of trams. Do you know if the software is designed to keep a consistent service in play. i.e. turn back trams to regulate the service or would this have to be done manually (as is currently the case).

Are the TMS issues trying to get it working reliably and consistently behaving in the same way?

(as you can tell this is one of my main areas of interest)

Freel (I think) mentioned something about TMS giving a driver a speed indicator to ensure he was in the right path. Guessing this is what regulates your trams.

With TMS and the biliary to properly track teams, I'm sure they will be about to spot bunching better and make changes to try and even out the service.

TMS issues have been stated to be different as multiple locations (ie junction from Altrincham line to Chorlton, MediaCityUK etc) as all needing location specific solution so hence why it's o slow is they also start from square 1 when dealing with the next problem.

[nidave]

Originally Posted by mackenziesoley

Freel (I think) mentioned something about TMS giving a driver a speed indicator to ensure he was in the right path. Guessing this is what regulates your trams.

With TMS and the biliary to properly track teams, I'm sure they will be about to spot bunching better and make changes to try and even out the service.

TMS issues have been stated to be different as multiple locations (ie junction from Altrincham line to Chorlton, MediaCityUK etc) as all needing location specific solution so hence why it's o slow is they also start from square 1 when dealing with the next problem.

with each junction being unique then that is not surprising. Its getting the logic to work correctly.

There seems to be 3 main parts to TMS
1. Tracking of trams for control and Passenger information (they use this currently)
2. To control points (this is the sticking point??)
3. To control traffic lights (does TMS communicate with the control systems for the other traffic)

[mackenziesoley]

Originally Posted by nidave

with each junction being unique then that is not surprising. Its getting the logic to work correctly.

There seems to be 3 main parts to TMS
1. Tracking of trams for control and Passenger information (they use this currently)
2. To control points (this is the sticking point??)
3. To control traffic lights (does TMS communicate with the control systems for the other traffic)

1. They currently don't have the ability to track trams properly yet. Believe it's only on the newer sections and then they are lost again in the City Center.
2. Well MediaCity seems to have many issues with points not working properly.
3. Not sure actually. Be interesting to find out.

Sure an insider can fill you in on more.