Philippine Defense Forces

[Jose Mari]

Originally Posted by Arvor

The MDT with the US would continue to keep those possibilities very distant indeed, the places where those scenario's could take place are in those area's which aren't covered by the mdt and where these aircrafts will be vulnerable to Flankers etc .

Even with the MDT with the US in place, you can’t guarantee when or how fast they would jump into the picture once hostilities commence, and deploying a defensive force would take time since they don’t have any bases here anymore. So in case the Chinese or anyone else tries to jump on us without any warning, you have to anticipate right now the possibility those planes would be armed and scrambled for our defense especially if they see the enemy coming in with big numbers to try and overwhelm us. It’s only prudent to think that way.

Originally Posted by Arvor

There are no quantum leaps in combat capability between the two aircraft the M346 can pretty much do whatever it is that the ta50 can .

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one because I think the more powerful TA-50 and the advantages that come with that would be more suited to the switch to fighter mode than the M-346 if the need arises.

Originally Posted by Arvor

Ive always been one of the few to regularly write about the need for patience and the need to pursue a step by step development, however the acquisition of the ta50 and the intended plans for it pretty much goes against such idea's .

Again you’re not in the position to know if the PAF intend those planes to be our frontline fighters.

Originally Posted by Arvor

It's not about the lift it is about S.Korea's plans to develop stealth fighters which will likely depend heavily on their experiences with this lift project, it's about nipping the competition in the bud almost literally .

S.Korea's economy and military budget and it's industrial handicaps will prevent it from breaking through in a highly competitive field with well established players ... .

Well those are the types of planes that S. Korea is selling right now, only LIFT’s. The US played a pivotal role in helping the S. Koreans gain the experience from its development. It doesn’t make sense for the US to help Korea gain the technical know-how only to try to thwart them in the world market later on... huh? US giant Lockheed Martin is helping them sell these products.

The S. Korean 5th gen stealth fighter program is aiming for a finished product that would be comparable in specs to the USA’s 5th gen joint strike fighter, the F-35. The top US defense contractors Lockheed Martin (again) along with Boeing are each vying to become partners with KAI on this endeavor. So aside from the expertise the S. Koreans gained from the US from developing the LIFT’s, the US again would be helping to augment that by sharing their tech savvy in stealth. Lockheed Martin is the developer and manufacturer of the F-35 which would make it the direct US competitor based on your scenario…lol.

What you’re speculating doesn’t make any amount of logical sense at all because if the US wanted to “nip the competition in the bud”, they would be doing the exact opposite of the actions they have been displaying towards Korean military manufacturing, which have been more cooperative in nature by helping them to grow and prosper in the industry, rather than being cut-throat competitive against them. Nah… sorry I’m not buying what you're saying about the competition between those 2 countries one bit.

The Korean economy is already larger than some countries that are established players. They are a technologically advanced industrial country (just look at their electronics industry) and they have the US expertise in military tech to back them up which would allow them to develop advanced hardware faster and cheaper because of the lower learning curve. They won’t be starting from the ground up doing the research. I don’t see them having trouble with funding as they continue to churn out increasingly advanced military products, and they have partners to share in the load (US and Indonesia in their stealth fighter program).

Originally Posted by Arvor

The "sensible" choice for such a longterm view would be the aircraft which can best respond to the uncertain future choices for mrf due to it's training versatility and surely also the one with the longer service life potential in short once again the M346 .

I wasn’t talking about any long-term view in the timetable I mentioned. In fact my stance was based on the assumption we would be getting the MRF’s just a few years from now. Here’s a ROUGH idea of the time frame I’m talking about:

- Order for 12 LIFT’s in 2012
- Selection and evaluation process of possible pilots and support personnel (like the ground crew) for the PAF fighter training program which they should be doing right NOW
- Delivery of the LIFT's in late 2013 (allowing for production time)
- Training period for pilots and other support personnel
- Order for the MRF squadron
- Delivery of the MRF squadron (also allowing for production time)

IF by the time the Training is done and there’s still no word on the MRF orders, then that’s when I would join you in condemning the PAF command and the top honcho’s of the DND. This is more of a short to mid-term view depending on how long it would take to train the necessary personnel to operate the MRF’s and is well within the LIFT’s projected operational lifetime. So like I said the “sensible” thing to do is to wait until the end of the training period, which is when we should be hearing something, rather than speculate right now on suspicions that we’re going to be stuck with the LIFT’s until they expire. Getting the MRF’s at this early stage of the program would be ill-advised since we’re not yet ready for them.

Originally Posted by Arvor

The TA50 is a waste of time and ressources there's just no real logical reason to procure the aircraft except if we wanted to use them in some kind of "speed racer" for lift aircraft contest .

Again, it’s only a waste if we DON’T get any MRF’s because it’s an advanced trainer a lot more capable than the planes it was designed to replace. Same situation if we got the M-346 and there are no MRF’s. Everything rests on the acquisition of a genuine and formidable MRF Wing.

[Arvor]

Even with the MDT with the US in place, you can’t guarantee when or how fast they would jump into the picture once hostilities commence

So in case the Chinese or anyone else tries to jump on us without any warning

Your arguments and scenario's just keep on making the case for why the M346 is the better choice, if the Chinese were to attack us the ta50's lack of ability to land on unprepared fields unlike the M346 would mean that they would be sitting ducks and the first aircraft to go in a conflict .

The M346's ability to land in such conditions are similar to those of the Gripen and is one of the main reasons why i do like the Gripen, as a small air force we need aircraft which can be dispersed and hidden in random and austere field bases around the country for their survival .

2ndly if the Chinese were to attack the TA50's can't do much about it and would be destroyed either on the ground or shortly after in the air, the US MDT is our only real national defence at this time and the navies growing capabilities .

Btw the money used for these ta50's 400 million would have been enough to procure 2nd hand German or other western European diesel subs Italy is actually getting rid of 2 such submarines by 2016 due to their budget issues .

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one because I think the more powerful TA-50 and the advantages that come with that would be more suited to the switch to fighter mode than the M-346 if the need arises.

I don't see why the ta50 is indeed a heavier aircraft which requires more power to move, but the extra power of the ta50 whatever little bit more it has is completely pointless it can't outrun missiles or larger mrf's, both aircraft have just enough of a chance to deliver the same type of weapons and hope they return if they were ever foolishly sent to engage large mrf's .

There is no advantage all it will do is provide the paf with higher maintenance and fuell bills nothing more ... .

Besides in such a scenario the m346's superior range would be more important than speed as speed is pointless if you can't even get to the location, the difference in time of arrival would only be measured in minutes not a big deal .

Again you’re not in the position to know if the PAF intend those planes to be our frontline fighters.

Oh i am ina position to know because they keep yapping about it and i quote "we will ask 2 aircraft to be delivered immediately so that our pilots can immediately fly in jets blablablabla" there is no mention of mrf's but the desire to use these aircraft as mrf's, btw it is your main justification or argument for the aircraft aswell .

The top US defense contractors Lockheed Martin (again) along with Boeing are each vying to become partners with KAI on this endeavor.

What you’re speculating doesn’t make any amount of logical sense at all because if the US wanted to “nip the competition in the bud”, they would be doing the exact opposite of the actions they have been displaying towards Korean military manufacturing, which have been more cooperative in nature by helping them to grow and prosper in the industry,

There is a saying "keep your friends close and your enemies closer", the established players often take these countries money and humor them without actually providing them with their most important know how's, the newbie then get's one project done but without much of a market share to begin with their venture eventually and simply flops, take the way Spanish CASA humored Indonesia took their money for the CN235 today Indonesia's aerospace industry has been made dependent and relegated to license production of EADS products ( one example of nipping in the bud ).

Lockheed Martin will be no different to the S.Koreans and the S.Koreans will treat the Indonesians the same way lol those guys never learn, the only one's who really managed to sort of get it going are the Chinese simply because they are big enough to get away with copyright issues and have enough money to fund their megalomanic plans .

S.Korea is neither that big or wealthy and they are beholden to Lockheed Martin which restricts the ta50's developments .

- Order for 12 LIFT’s in 2012
- Selection and evaluation process of possible pilots and support personnel (like the ground crew) for the PAF fighter training program which they should be doing right NOW
- Delivery of the LIFT's in late 2013 (allowing for production time)
- Training period for pilots and other support personnel
- Order for the MRF squadron
- Delivery of the MRF squadron (also allowing for production time)

IF by the time the Training is done and there’s still no word on the MRF orders, then that’s when I would join you in condemning the PAF command and the top honcho’s of the DND.

All of those things can be ready by 2014-15 ordering new mrf's evaluating them and the actual time it takes to produce them if brand new would take 3 to 4 years .

If the dnd was serious about having mrf's they would have to start evaluating and making orders for them even now or concurrently with the lift choice, instead there is a total lack of any such plans whitin the logical timeframe .

This means at least 10 years or more without any mrf's in the meantime all those "trained" pilots would spend their time doing what ?, eating fast food and getting too fat to fit into their flight suits by the time they ever acquire mrf's ... .

These timeframes doesn't make sense you don't train pilots to sit around doing nothing for a decade which only confirms yet again the intention to pass the ta50 off as the countries main "fighter jet" .

Again, it’s only a waste if we DON’T get any MRF’s because it’s an advanced trainer a lot more capable than the planes it was designed to replace. Same situation if we got the M-346 and there are no MRF’s. Everything rests on the acquisition of a genuine and formidable MRF Wing.

At least if we get the M346 we would get value for money

- It would be cheaper to procure
- Better range
- Cheaper to maintain and run ( given the paf's issues with fuel costs )
- It has a longer lifepsan a full 1/3rd longer
- It is more survivable in many ways including it's ability to land on unprepared fields allowing us to disperse them and making them harder to target and destroy .
- It can train our pilots for any eventual mrf choice and even train our pilots with flanker configurations giving our pilots valuable insights against likely foes .

And so much more ... .

Anyway like i said in an earlier post by all means please feel free to post even the flimsiest of news regarding mrf procurement .

[Arvor]

edit - double post

[Jose Mari]

As for the various merits of the M-346 you’ve enumerated, I’ve already said that we might as well agree to disagree. It gets tedious when we both have our minds set on the matter of LIFT choice.

Originally Posted by Arvor

Oh i am ina position to know because they keep yapping about it and i quote "we will ask 2 aircraft to be delivered immediately so that our pilots can immediately fly in jets blablablabla" there is no mention of mrf's but the desire to use these aircraft as mrf's, btw it is your main justification or argument for the aircraft aswell .

Oh no you’re not...lol. You’re only in a position to speculate just like everyone else here about what the PAF’s real intentions are especially since it's too early in the ballgame. PAF’s asking for 2 units early might be a good move on their part to help facilitate the training progress once the entire batch is in our hands. We’ll have more capable peeps on hand ready to operate and know how to properly take care of the planes by the time the rest of the entire batch arrives.

I've always held the contention that it would be POINTLESS to acquire any LIFT without any intent to get the true MRF’s and that TA-50 is more suited to combat than the M-346 as a stopgap measure while the MRF’s still haven’t arrived. That’s it... so please don't claim that I said something which I didn't. That’s what I’m hoping is the PAF’s intention over the next few years.

Originally Posted by Arvor

There is a saying "keep your friends close and your enemies closer", the established players often take these countries money and humor them without actually providing them with their most important know how's, the newbie then get's one project done but without much of a market share to begin with their venture eventually and simply flops, take the way Spanish CASA humored Indonesia took their money for the CN235 today Indonesia's aerospace industry has been made dependent and relegated to license production of EADS products ( one example of nipping in the bud ).

Lockheed Martin will be no different to the S.Koreans and the S.Koreans will treat the Indonesians the same way lol those guys never learn, the only one's who really managed to sort of get it going are the Chinese simply because they are big enough to get away with copyright issues and have enough money to fund their megalomanic plans .

S.Korea is neither that big or wealthy and they are beholden to Lockheed Martin which restricts the ta50's developments .

“Keep your friends close… “ yeah I know that saying, but such speculation on your part is now approaching the realm of conspiracy theory…lol. That’s ridiculous. Korea is not the enemy here and I think they are sophisticated enough to know if they’re being hoodwinked. I couldn’t care less what the Spaniards did to the Indonesians. If that’s how the Spaniards roll, then that’s their problem. That doesn’t mean the US will do the same to the Koreans. The US might not want to reveal some vital trade secrets, which is understandable, but the S. Koreans would be coming up with far more inferior products without their assistance. The US might as well leave them to their own devices and give “made in ROK” a bad connotation if they wanted the Koreans to fail. It won’t be good for Lockheed Martin (including other US companies like General Electric and Honeywell that Lockheed brought into the project) to have its well respected name tarnished by being associated with a lemon when that company itself contributed some funding and tech and is trying to help sell the product internationally, even to Uncle Sam. You’re grasping at straws here.

And about the T-50 restrictions, that’s not true at all. LOL… where did you get that? The S. Koreans aren’t beholden to Lockheed and they get the final say on how the planes would turn out (ex.: their choice of radar on one of the variants over what Lockheed preferred) and in fact Lockheed recommends the T-50 entry for the US competition to be re-engineered with various upgrades and new offerings to help improve Lockheed/KAI’s chances against Boeing and Northrop Grumman in winning the US T-X trainer contract. Lockheed like any contractor is in it for the money since that deal alone has the potential for more than a thousand orders worth billions.

Originally Posted by Arvor

All of those things can be ready by 2014-15 ordering new mrf's evaluating them and the actual time it takes to produce them if brand new would take 3 to 4 years .

If the dnd was serious about having mrf's they would have to start evaluating and making orders for them even now or concurrently with the lift choice, instead there is a total lack of any such plans whitin the logical timeframe .

This means at least 10 years or more without any mrf's in the meantime all those "trained" pilots would spend their time doing what ?, eating fast food and getting too fat to fit into their flight suits by the time they ever acquire mrf's ... .

These timeframes doesn't make sense you don't train pilots to sit around doing nothing for a decade which only confirms yet again the intention to pass the ta50 off as the countries main "fighter jet" .

Anyway like i said in an earlier post by all means please feel free to post even the flimsiest of news regarding mrf procurement .

Timing is crucial and it wouldn’t take as long as you say it would if they begin the MRF evaluation as soon as possible, but they might want to keep it all under wraps (meaning no procurement news... sorry) until they’re finally ready to commit on the order even if they've already made up their minds on their choice, and even if that includes taking some flak from anxious people who try to second-guess their every move to come up with unsubstantiated conclusions. I'll give them 2-4 years of breathing space with regards to that.

[Manila-X]

Originally Posted by Jose Mari

I've always held the contention that it would be POINTLESS to acquire any LIFT without any intent to get the true MRF’s and that TA-50 is more suited to combat than the M-346 as a stopgap measure while the MRF’s still haven’t arrived. That’s it... so please don't claim that I said something which I didn't. That’s what I’m hoping is the PAF’s intention over the next few years.

Unless the purpose of acquiring The TA-50 is to convert them to FA-50s in the future.

If that is the case, The DND is better off purchasing the latter instead of spending additional budget for FA-50 conversion.

Even so, both The TA-50 and FA-50 should not be substituted for a fighter jet and should be even become The PAF's main MRF.

[Jose Mari]

Originally Posted by Manila-X

Unless the purpose of acquiring The TA-50 is to convert them to FA-50s in the future.

If that is the case, The DND is better off purchasing the latter instead of spending additional budget for FA-50 conversion.

Even so, both The TA-50 and FA-50 should not be substituted for a fighter jet and should be even become The PAF's main MRF.

I'm of the position that we must get the true MRF's regardless what variant other than the basic t-50 we pick, because I wanted our advanced trainers to have some respectable combat abilities as well. If we could afford the FA-50 (which has BVR capability) plus the MRF like the Gripen, then why not.

However, that's unlikely and it's a real MRF or nothing for me. I don't want our pilots to be stuck with the TA's nor the FA's until the next PAF modernization cycle, unless the Koreans can improve the FA's specs even further so it can be a match to the Chinese MRF's.

[Manila-X]

Originally Posted by Jose Mari

I'm of the position that we must get the true MRF's regardless what variant other than the basic t-50 we pick, because I wanted our advanced trainers to have some respectable combat abilities as well. If we could afford the FA-50 (which has BVR capability) plus the MRF like the Gripen, then why not.

However, that's unlikely and it's a real MRF or nothing for me. I don't want our pilots to be stuck with the TA's nor the FA's until the next PAF modernization cycle, unless the Koreans can improve the FA's specs even further so it can be a match to the Chinese MRF's.

If The PAF wants to get rid of their "all air and no force" tagline, it really has to acquire some MRFs and only such planes can provide air defense and not combat helicopters.

Our government especially our legislative should prioritize the AFP modernization bill and give the budget that it needs to improve our country's defense capability.

But despite of this, I'm still firm on my stand that either The F-16 or The JAS Gripen are the perfect choice for The PAF.

The Koreans can still develop The FA-50 into a better aircraft that can match any air superiority MRF including that of China.

Just like what Saab is doing to The Gripen, modifying it to the next generation and even making it carrier capable.

Or what Lockheed Martin is doing to the F-16 especially with the modifications of it's Block 60 variant to The UAE.

[waraywaray architect]

I believe it is not in the best interest to have those T/A-50's converted into figthers. They should remain as they are for future pilot trainees. The best thing for the government to do is to procure MRF assets. Leave the trainers for pilot training and provide MRF's for pilots who passed the training. This is to perpetuate and maintain skilled pilots in the PAF as years go by.

[Arvor]

Oh no you’re not...lol. You’re only in a position to speculate just like everyone else here about what the PAF’s real intentions are especially since it's too early in the ballgame. PAF’s asking for 2 units early might be a good move on their part to help facilitate the training progress once the entire batch is in our hands. We’ll have more capable peeps on hand ready to operate and know how to properly take care of the planes by the time the rest of the entire batch arrives.

Timing is crucial and it wouldn’t take as long as you say it would if they begin the MRF evaluation as soon as possible, but they might want to keep it all under wraps (meaning no procurement news... sorry) until they’re finally ready to commit on the order even if they've already made up their minds on their choice, and even if that includes taking some flak from anxious people who try to second-guess their every move to come up with unsubstantiated conclusions. I'll give them 2-4 years of breathing space with regards to that.

The gov seem to have a hard time keeping secrets and as a society we have a propensity to talk, they have said everything they have to say about air force acquisitions and they have basically stated their intentions of using ta50's if that deal is approved as a "fighter" ( read below ) .

MANILA, Aug. 14 (PNA) – The Philippine Air Force (PAF) will regenerate its “fast mover” capability once the decision to acquire South Korea’s TA-50 “Golden Eagle” becomes final.

The ability refers to the capacity to intercept aircraft intruding or encroaching over the country’s airspace.

Fernando Manalo, DND undersecretary for finance, munitions, installation, and materiel, said that the TA-50 offers the PAF the best means to reacquire such capability.

“It may be small and not that fast, but under the hands of a well-trained and capable pilot, this plane can prove itself a much for much faster and bigger aircraft,” he said.

“We will get two immediately for training purpose so that when the 10 other aircraft arrive, our pilots are already trained for its use,” Manalo said.

http://phl.ph/2012/08/14/ta-50-to-re...-f-nepomuceno/

So "the best means" and "trained for it's use" not trained for subsequent mrf's which will be the best means !, if they were to begin evaluations for an actual mrf in 4 years time add 3 to 4 extra years for deal making and delivery and the very short service life of these ta50's of 8000 hours would be almost up .

Your timeframe is simply ridiculous if they were intent on following up the ta50 order with mrf's they would not put so much emphasis on it being a "jet fighter" as you have and they would need to make a decision on mrf's now in order to be able to be ready in time for all those newly trained pilots by 2013-14 .

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and that TA-50 is more suited to combat than the M-346

How is it more suited to combat than the M346 ?, it is slightly faster that's all and it is a pointless capability either against flankers n missiles ( not fast enough ) or abu sayyaf and npa rebels ( where's the rush they are going nowhere ! ) ... .

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That doesn’t mean the US will do the same to the Koreans.

Why wouldn't they ?, the US does this to the Europeans and the Europeans do it to the Americans an the Russians etc the defence industry is a cut throat industry and established players are going to make sure they emerge with all the cards at the end of the day, the idea that they would treat the S.Koreans differently is absurd .

----

And about the T-50 restrictions, that’s not true at all.

Is this your last word ? .


----

I'm of the position that we must get the true MRF's regardless what variant other than the basic t-50 we pick, because I wanted our advanced trainers to have some respectable combat abilities as well.

The M346's longer range and agility makes it more suitable for "light combat" which is all the combat lift aircraft are meant for and it is a superior trainer .

----

Giving the dnd 4 years of reasonable doubt is not acceptable as it would simply make the wrong choice of a ta50 procurement a fait accompli you can't return these aircraft by then ! .

So if what you are saying is the case then i would like to see greater accountability on the part of our legislators and the dnd and for them to clarify such an important and long term project if they have one at all ! .

Frankly imo this is it the ta50 will indeed be our "fighter jet" as the dnd like to refer to it for the next 10 -15 years ... .

[Beam Magnum]

I really dont like the TA-50 as a mainfighter. I fear there is a possibility confusion or friendly fire as you can see the bottom of J-17 looks exactly identical to the TA-50. What if our anti-aircraft boys or patrol boats dont know the knowledge of the Chinese jets and slip past to our territory? Hey its one of ours.......OW SHI..... BOOM! That could be the reason why the Singaporean chose the M-346 instead the TA-50.

[d7beast]

Originally Posted by Beam Magnum

I really dont like the TA-50 as a mainfighter. I fear there is a possibility confusion or friendly fire as you can see the bottom of J-17 looks exactly identical to the TA-50. What if our anti-aircraft boys or patrol boats dont know the knowledge of the Chinese jets and slip past to our territory? Hey its one of ours.......OW SHI..... BOOM! That could be the reason why the Singaporean chose the M-346 instead the TA-50.

may mga beacon yang mga yan na na-identify yung type ng aircraft, civilian, military, friendly or bandits (or pirates), unknown/intruders, unless fired deliberately,..
di ko maimagine bakit kukuha tayo ng masyadong mahal na trainers na gagamiting full-fledge na MRFs, pwede nilang i-consider nila sa purchase order specs na yung trainer variants nung MRF orderin natin, usually pinag kaiba nila is the lack of extenal fuel tanks which is d natin kailangan to patrol and protect the 200miles EEZ in the WPS at two-seater yung trainer (trainee pilot, instructor), other than that like airframes, avionics pareho na, yung mga engineers kasi pagtrabahuin ng DND wag yung mga puro daldal lang ang alam sa eroplano,..

[Alinghi]

Originally Posted by Beam Magnum

I really dont like the TA-50 as a mainfighter. I fear there is a possibility confusion or friendly fire as you can see the bottom of J-17 looks exactly identical to the TA-50. What if our anti-aircraft boys or patrol boats dont know the knowledge of the Chinese jets and slip past to our territory? Hey its one of ours.......OW SHI..... BOOM! That could be the reason why the Singaporean chose the M-346 instead the TA-50.

oh come on, this is not World War I.. haven't you heard about radars, beacons, and transponders?

and who said it will be our main fighter? when the PAF has clearly stated the continuation of the MRF deal after the LIFT program

[Jose Mari]

Originally Posted by Arvor

The gov seem to have a hard time keeping secrets and as a society we have a propensity to talk, they have said everything they have to say about air force acquisitions and they have basically stated their intentions of using ta50's if that deal is approved as a "fighter" ( read below ) .

So "the best means" and "trained for it's use" not trained for subsequent mrf's which will be the best means !, if they were to begin evaluations for an actual mrf in 4 years time add 3 to 4 extra years for deal making and delivery and the very short service life of these ta50's of 8000 hours would be almost up .

Your timeframe is simply ridiculous if they were intent on following up the ta50 order with mrf's they would not put so much emphasis on it being a "jet fighter" as you have and they would need to make a decision on mrf's now in order to be able to be ready in time for all those newly trained pilots by 2013-14 .

You’re like a fortune teller reading too much into that article… loosen up a bit dude.

“The best means…” Maybe they’re talking “in the meantime…” because right now we pretty much have nothing in the air that would even come close to the TA.

“Trained for its use… “ Well you have to know how to use it first before you even try to simulate an MRF. Since it has its own combat specs and will be used in combat roles, they would also have to train for that.

Evaluations don’t actually take that long. They're not receiving a prototype straight out of the labs, but after the evaluation the delivery would have to coincide with the end of the training program where ideally the pilots and crew would be shifted to train on the actual MRF. My timetable just gives us a ROUGH explanation that these things are taken in steps and not done outright and in one go. These things are scheduled.

I’m not saying that your concerns aren’t valid, because they are. I and other folks here too share those same concerns. But like what I’m tired of repeating already, it’s still too early to try to second-guess what the PAF and DND are really up to because the procurement program is just getting off the ground. If what you’re saying is true however, then that DND guy has no business plotting our national defense schemes... I mean talk about being a dumbf*ck…lol.

Originally Posted by Arvor

How is it more suited to combat than the M346 ?, it is slightly faster that's all and it is a pointless capability either against flankers n missiles ( not fast enough ) or abu sayyaf and npa rebels ( where's the rush they are going nowhere ! ) ... .

Sigh… well since you’re so persistent about it…

The M-346 in its current version like the one ordered by Israel and Singapore isn’t even combat capable right now, unlike the TA-50 that the PAF are eyeing. That’s why I keep saying the Korean product is more suited to the fighter role because it has specs that you see in a real fighter. Aside from its flight characteristics, the necessary systems are already integrated into it so it will be ready when it does the switch from trainer to fighter mode.

The IAF would have to make modifications on the M-346 for Israeli equipment fitting (that may or may not include weapons they use depending on their needs) so what they would be receiving is basically a barebones trainer. Singapore on the other hand was more interested in the training package than the dual trainer/combat role as they already have the F-16 and the F-15 MRF’s. Unlike its Russian cousin the YAK-130 from where it was derived, the M-346 hasn’t even undergone weapons testing yet. It has the potential to carry up to 9 attachments, but all that is just “potential” right now because so far it’s limited to external tanks and training pods, practice/dummy bombs, gun pods, etc. It doesn’t even have a proper built-in cannon like a real fighter should have…lol.

The T/TA/FA-50 line is already rigged to carry a number of popular US fighter ordinances depending on the variant (Sidewinders, AMRAAMs, Mavericks, MK series of bombs even the 1000 kg MK-84, etc.). It’s hard to find any info on what type and weight of the actual weapons the M-346 can carry. It’s mostly theoretical weapon load-outs. All we're hearing about is its rather weak 3,000 kg limit and nothing much else. But don’t worry. There’s actually a combat version of the M-346 in the works with the proper avionics, radar, countermeasures and other things a real fighter needs, but that is still around 2 years away, and when you factor in the evaluation and production time of the order, then that’s even further down the timeline. So the idea of the M-346 in its current state would be more suited than the TA-50 to the light attack fighter role right now is THE fantasy.

You pooh-pooh the Indonesian purchase of the TA but do you even know the kind of agreement Alenia went into with IAI? Part of the deal to supply Israel with 30 trainers involved Italy buying from them the Eitam which is Israel’ s version of the AWACS costing around US$750-million or so. Add to that another arrangement where Italy would enter into a satellite joint venture with IAI where they’ll have to shore up about $200-M million worth of the components needed. Those sweeteners aside from other geo-political matters was what sealed the deal for the Italians and not because the M-346 was superior. In fact of all the planes that competed, the t-50 was evaluated the best performer of the bunch.

Originally Posted by Arvor

Why wouldn't they ?, the US does this to the Europeans and the Europeans do it to the Americans an the Russians etc the defence industry is a cut throat industry and established players are going to make sure they emerge with all the cards at the end of the day, the idea that they would treat the S.Koreans differently is absurd .

Sure every side would be looking out for whatever is in their best interest, but I think I already explained clearly how the S. Koreans are not being regarded as cut-throat competition, at least not how YOU perceive it to be, particularly in the projects where the US is involved.

There’s no reason for the US to allow one of its corporate giants like Lockheed to enter into a partnership with KAI where it would plunk in precious time, money, advanced technology transfer and various other resources, not to mention putting its own reputation on the line, just to shoot down the whole process in the final stretch. The thought that Lockheed would even let it reach the promotions stage with them putting their best face forward to the military world and pitting the planes they helped develop against the products of their own established competitors only to end up looking like clowns because that’s what they planned all along… it’s just complete nonsense.

Originally Posted by Arvor

Is this your last word ? .

Well they had to create a plane within bounds of what requirements the S. Korean gov’t have set for the program. In the T-50’s case, the gov’t was looking for the next generation of advance trainers with some combat capability. They weren’t out to develop an F-15 capable clone or anything like that so there will always be restrictions in the performance envelope. Lockheed entered into this partnership with KAI to help build a plane with that aim in mind and within the original parameters that were laid out, and anything beyond that would fall outside what was contracted for them to produce. It’s only normal the companies stick with what was formally agreed upon, but it’s KAI’s final say on whatever components or design changes Lockheed proposes especially if the Koreans don’t feel their proposal is up to spec. I don’t see anything wrong with that arrangement.

Originally Posted by Arvor

The M346's longer range and agility makes it more suitable for "light combat" which is all the combat lift aircraft are meant for and it is a superior trainer .

As I understand it, there isn't any significant difference in range between the two planes, but I could be wrong. Maybe you can show me the specs. I do know that you get more mileage out of the M-346 which translates to significantly lower fuel costs.

Maybe M-346 is the superior trainer but I don't see why the TA can't do a sterling job training our pilots and like I said, I was more interested in the fighter than the trainer criteria.

Originally Posted by Arvor

Giving the dnd 4 years of reasonable doubt is not acceptable as it would simply make the wrong choice of a ta50 procurement a fait accompli you can't return these aircraft by then ! .

It’s better than ending up with a trainer with fake bombs and gun pods. Might as well arm those M-346’s with hollow blocks which would be cheaper to drop on the heads of those insurgents... j/k. It's like ending up with more state-of-the-art but glorified S-211’s.

Originally Posted by Arvor

So if what you are saying is the case then i would like to see greater accountability on the part of our legislators and the dnd and for them to clarify such an important and long term project if they have one at all ! .

Frankly imo this is it the ta50 will indeed be our "fighter jet" as the dnd like to refer to it for the next 10 -15 years ... .

Patience is a virtue. I admit I’m not even sure this is what they’ve had in mind, but as long as they’re still in the training stage, I won’t jump the gun and cry foul.

Again that’s YOUR opinion, but if it turns out to be true then like I said we would be better off than if it were the toothless M-346s.

[Beam Magnum]

Originally Posted by Alinghi

oh come on, this is not World War I.. haven't you heard about radars, beacons, and transponders?

and who said it will be our main fighter? when the PAF has clearly stated the continuation of the MRF deal after the LIFT program

OH REEEEAAAALLLLYYYY? Do you think our radar station can last long from cruise missile? Is our missiles is sufficient against overwhelming odds?

[AmbutLang]

Originally Posted by Alinghi

oh come on, this is not World War I.. haven't you heard about radars, beacons, and transponders?

and who said it will be our main fighter? when the PAF has clearly stated the continuation of the MRF deal after the LIFT program

Transponder switch ON is good if the pilot wanted to be identified. As far as the radar is concern, a blip will be considered a stray or unidentified flying object. , unless the plane is equipt with a special doppler unit in conjunction with the type of paint which absorb and dissipate radar signal like I serviced in my US airforce days.

[Arvor]

They're not receiving a prototype straight out of the labs, but after the evaluation the delivery would have to coincide with the end of the training program where ideally the pilots and crew would be shifted to train on the actual MRF. My timetable just gives us a ROUGH explanation that these things are taken in steps and not done outright and in one go. These things are scheduled.

It took Thailand around 4 years to seal the deal and recieve their first batch of Gripens, according to the dnd they want to have 2 of the trainers next year and have enough pilots trained when they recieve the rest this would mean that by 2014 they would have enough trained pilots .

So you say give them 4 years while enough pilots would be trained whitin 2 years even less, now add the whole procurement process of another 4 years this would mean trained pilots not having mrf's to fly for close to a decade .

the M-346 hasn’t even undergone weapons testing yet.

Actually it's certification process is moving forward quite smoothly including weapons testing .

Those sweeteners aside from other geo-political matters was what sealed the deal for the Italians and not because the M-346 was superior. In fact of all the planes that competed, the t-50 was evaluated the best performer of the bunch.

S.Korea offered a similar deal even employing blackmail or boycott of Israeli equipment if their plane were not purchased .

Btw what will S.Korea purchase from the Phillippines for 400 million $ ? .

but it’s KAI’s final say on whatever components or design changes Lockheed proposes especially if the Koreans don’t feel their proposal is up to spec. I don’t see anything wrong with that arrangement.

Not quite

The FA-50 is also a joint KAI/ Lockheed Martin project, and the associated co-operation agreements reportedly included a number of restrictive terms. One is that Lockheed Martin won’t transfer aircraft source code to other nations, leaving them as the sole integrator for key capabilities. A 2nd provision is that the T-50’s capabilities cannot exceed Korea’s F-16s. A 3rd provision banned South Korea from integrating T-50 variants with non-U.S. technology that the United States doesn’t have.

The M346 is the best option due to it's price and cheaper running costs, it's survivability thanks to twin engines and ability to use unprepared fields, it's advanced training capabilities will set the paf for for the future along with it's longer service life and light attack capabilities .

My preferred solution would be to procure 6 M346 aircraft + 6 Gripens ( or alternatives ) with 2 to 6 aircraft leased directly from the Swedish air force to be used by pilots sent to Sweden in advance for training until the brand new Gripens are delivered at which point the leased aircraft can either be returned or kept to create a full squadron .

More aircraft can simply be procured subsequently as new funds are found for further acquisitions .

This scenario would provide the paf with modern lift and mrf's whitin 2 years with a managable extra cost instead of the TA50 deal .

[rage@cebu]

they chose the TA-50 maybe because we already have defense contracts with them... the KM-450trucks, KM-250 trucks, K-3 machine gun, Night Fighting Sytems, and many more... in my own opinion lng ha....

[AmbutLang]

from. Modernize the Philippine Navy
Liked · 22 minutes ago

modern Chinese jet??????------------------------CRASH.......
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=1&theater

Most probably a copied Jet from Russian.

[Alinghi]

Originally Posted by AmbutLang

Transponder switch ON is good if the pilot wanted to be identified. As far as the radar is concern, a blip will be considered a stray or unidentified flying object. , unless the plane is equipt with a special doppler unit in conjunction with the type of paint which absorb and dissipate radar signal like I serviced in my US airforce days.

all assumptions, when the real point is: all necessary mechanisms for ID is already there

Originally Posted by Beam Magnum

OH REEEEAAAALLLLYYYY? Do you think our radar station can last long from cruise missile? Is our missiles is sufficient against overwhelming odds?

and you think the AFP is that stupid to rely on the aircraft's shape for ID? even the paint and roundel can give them a clue from hundred's of feet away if all else fails

[Jose Mari]

Originally Posted by Arvor

It took Thailand around 4 years to seal the deal and recieve their first batch of Gripens, according to the dnd they want to have 2 of the trainers next year and have enough pilots trained when they recieve the rest this would mean that by 2014 they would have enough trained pilots .

So you say give them 4 years while enough pilots would be trained whitin 2 years even less, now add the whole procurement process of another 4 years this would mean trained pilots not having mrf's to fly for close to a decade .

You already gave the example how it took 4 years for the Thais to get the MRF so it won’t matter if the training would only take 2 years since they still wouldn’t be able to get their hands on it in 4, so yeah I’ll give them 4 years leeway. Our procurement for the MRF’s doesn’t have to start after 4 years. They could make a choice right now and start the process as soon as possible, but I’ll wait before complaining because the program is only getting started… sheesh… lol. It’s too early to cry about it.

Originally Posted by Arvor

Actually it's certification process is moving forward quite smoothly including weapons testing .

That’s just for training ordinance, because like I said the M-346 in its current form is unable to accommodate military grade fighter ordinance (at least anything serious) since it lacks the necessary systems. It’s more of a pure trainer than a dual purpose trainer. That’s why they had to build a combat version and that variant would still have to undergo testing for its weapons. The M-346 in the market right now isn’t a combat version.

Originally Posted by Arvor

S.Korea offered a similar deal even employing blackmail or boycott of Israeli equipment if their plane were not purchased .

I find that hard to believe. It’s bizarre they would resort to naive strong-arm tactics like blackmail against a seasoned military might that is Israel who’s been around the block so to speak. I think you’ve got to substantiate those claims further.

Originally Posted by Arvor

Btw what will S.Korea purchase from the Phillippines for 400 million $ ? .

Sweet ripe mangoes? I dunno...

We’re not in a position as these wealthy and industrialized countries to offer anything significant enough, well at least not on a military basis. On the other hand Korea could’ve offered something a little extra (like ships or whatever) to sweeten the deal, but I’m not privy to what went down in that sale or if anything is final.

That’s all beside the point I was trying to come across which is simply that the M-346 was chosen not because it bested the other entries, but that the Italians offered the Israelis a deal they couldn’t refuse.

Originally Posted by Arvor

Not quite

Well I think the portions of my posts that you conveniently omitted already justified those restrictions. That was smart heads-up thinking on Lockheed's part since the F-16 (where the design was based) is their baby and they were brought in and signed a contract to develop a fighter/trainer and not an air-superiority fighter. Why would Lockheed partner with the S. Koreans if the real aim was to surpass their own product? It would be S. Korea on the erring side if their real intent was to secretly build a 4.5 gen fighter in the guise of trainer. As for the American weapons choice, that just makes good business sense to me and is no way detrimental to the Korean side. It’s fair and looks very reasonable for both sides, and the Koreans gained a lot of technological know-how from the experience.

Originally Posted by Arvor

The M346 is the best option due to it's price and cheaper running costs, it's survivability thanks to twin engines and ability to use unprepared fields, it's advanced training capabilities will set the paf for for the future along with it's longer service life and light attack capabilities .

The M-346 “light attack” capabilities are laughable. It’s a pure LIFT and nothing much else.

Originally Posted by Arvor

My preferred solution would be to procure 6 M346 aircraft + 6 Gripens ( or alternatives ) with 2 to 6 aircraft leased directly from the Swedish air force to be used by pilots sent to Sweden in advance for training until the brand new Gripens are delivered at which point the leased aircraft can either be returned or kept to create a full squadron .

More aircraft can simply be procured subsequently as new funds are found for further acquisitions .

This scenario would provide the paf with modern lift and mrf's whitin 2 years with a managable extra cost instead of the TA50 deal .

With regards to your solution, that’s really not so different from the timetable I had in mind, but you said it took the Thais 4 years to get the Gripens, not 2.

As long as we get something like the Gripens (or better), then sure why not? That’s what all of us really want. My only personal preference is for the trainer be combat capable to augment the fighting force.