Archaeology Thread

[skganji]

I think the best way is to check is with S.R.Rao himself about this Idol. He is the best person to clarify the authenticity and age of this stone. I would like check with him before I comment further on this Idol.

[kingkobra]

Originally Posted by skganji

I appreciate some of your comments above. I always thought that Agni and Indra are seperate. How about Vishnu and Rudra in Rigveda ?. Are they not seperate ?. Dr. Subash Kak does say that idea of a monotheistic god propagated from Rigveda to Egypt and it was Anaknetan who introduced the sun god Atan in and around 15th century BCE. One of the queens of Anaknetan is from the Mittani Kingdom. One of the Mittani kings writes a letter to his son-in-law which is almost identical to one of the Hymns from Rigveda.

Regarding the age of the Idol it is mentioned in several articles about the excavation carried by Dr. S.R.Rao in Dwaraka. The article says something about 1500 B.C.E. It says , By thermo-luminescence,carbon dating and other modern scientific techniques, the artifacts were found to belong to the period between 15th to 18th century BCE. In his great work, The lost city of Dwaraka, Dr Rao has given scientific details of these discoveries and artifacts.
The Inscriptions found in some of these excavations used late Indus script.

http://veda.wikidot.com/dwaraka

All four vedas promote Monotheism..there are many names of Almighty Ishwar given in vedas based on various attributes.

Vishnu is also a name of formless, Almighty God based on quality. Quality is a sunder- “Vishnu” word is made from “Vishlari” Dhatu and the sense of Vishlari” is omnipresent. So he who has the quality of being Omnipresent at all times without a second’s break, He is Vishnu and no other Vishnu exists equivalent to this God. Similarly, Brahma= “Vri Vridhau” i.e., the biggest amongst the universe. Naturally, He is Almighty God. So, the name of Almighty God is also Brahma. Similarly, according to Yajurveda mantra 16/41 shiv means he who is beneficial/causes welfare, is shiv. The most beneficial, who creates and nurses the universe is Almighty God. So, Shiv is also name of Almighty God.

------------------------------------------
Agni (embodiment of knowledge), Indra (vast
wealth owner or commander), Vishnu (omnipresent), Brahma (great),
Varuna (purifier), Mitra (loves everyone), Rudra (harsh the wicked
ones), Dravinoda (giver of wealth and strength) soma (creator of
herbs, roots etc.) are his different names given in Rig 2/1/3-7
------------------------------------------

Hundred names of god in four vedas

http://adityadham.com/aditya/godnames.html

[skganji]

. In the Daksha prajapati yagna Lord shiva's associates broke the teeth of Pusa. I was under the impression that mitra, varuna, vayu, pusa, brihaspati are all different personalities who are headed by Lord Indra in the heavenly planet. The puranas consistently have this theme. Infact the Rigveda glorifies all these personalities. The purusa sukta prayer ( 10th mandala) talks about the supreme purusa ( or god) .

[barrykul]

Originally Posted by Marathaman

So u want to prove that "sanathana dharma" was a pure logical monothestic religion and not always the illogical polythiestic crap that it has become?

The streak of Nazi Aryan invasion theory rears its ugly head in your dismissal of other valid theology. Why is it crap?

One needs to read the Nicene Creed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed to understand Christian Theology, its assumptions and grand conclusions on God, Son and Holy Ghost. Three entities! And the explanation that they are the same, i.e. aspects of the One. Note, the effort to make the Son, Jesus as both human and god and hence immaculate conception.

I am making no judgment on the Vedic/Hindu/Sanatan evolution/theory/creed. What is remarkable however is that the same concepts are seriously discussed with full latitude to all the variations. There is Brahma vs Atma (self), its relationship to one another, with 3 possible valid explanations. Advaita claiming that they are the same, Dvaita believing in separate realities and Vishist Advaita believing in qualifications of the relation. The latitude of the practitioners of the faith to allow any valid qualifying attribute of Brahma to be worshipped (i.e. demi - gods, Ishta Deva) by any Atma, a truly democratic process and hence the bewildering array of demi - gods is indeed remarkable. It goes back to the very essence of Indian philosophy all the way back to the Indus Civilization wherein true democracy reigned.

[Licit Mortal]

Originally Posted by dayalbaba

this is nonsense, to put it mildly. hinduism is much older than either jainism or buddhism. it was called sanatan dharma back then. the name hinduism is not ancient, doesn't mean the religion isn't. hinduism doesn't originate from puranas (which are mostly written in the centuries leading up to gupta period) but from vedas, which are some of the oldest books known to mankind.

buddhism was absorbed in hinduism as time went along, it was not replacement of one by another. buddha for example is considered one of the avatars of vishnu in many vaishnava schools. the concept of shiv ling itself is supposed to have originated from buddhist stupas.
to philosophers the difference might have been very important, to common people it was not.
even the Pala kings of bengal, who once ruled upto afghanistan while considered buddhist by all historians, had no problems worshipping 'dharma', a form of vishnu with equal fervour.

To me, scholars saying this is very very interesting and it strengthens my belief that the idol worship with all the moorthis that we have today in a hindu society is a legacy left behind by the buddhist religion.

Majority of the ancient idols definitely reflect buddhist statues of east asia and that makes me believe that what we worship as idols of vishnu, varaha, etc. etc.. are nothing but reflection of various buddhist monk's imaginations of various forms of buddha.

Idol worship in my belief definitely started with buddhism and this is precisely what swami vivekananda was also talking about.

Unfortunately, what is disheartening is the fact that Hinduism today has lost its core principle of being a way of life, by following sanatana dharma and the concepts of the six philosophical school of thoughts and has rather become a religion, relying on idol worship, many meaningless rituals, etc..

Everytime, I see people rushing to the nearby temple with liters and liters of milk in their hand to give the demi gods a good lactic acid body rejuvenation everyday, I feel so ashamed to be a part of a society that is ignorant of the fact that the same milk could be used to feed millions of hungry, malnourished and starving babies of this country. Even the so called demi gods would be laughing at what we do. No wonder, why people are losing all their hopes in religion today, because it is just filled with false promises through many meaningless rituals. These rituals(with an exception to vedic rituals and some other scientifically proven rituals) in reality are made to just please the priestly class. By just following the rituals and totally ignoring the traditional teachings of sanatana dharma, we are just fooling ourselves and to me it reminds what I had heard in a movie named "The man from earth" that says "Piety is not what the lessons bring to the people. It is the mistakes people bring to the lessons" What a way to describe what's happening with every religion today on the face of this planet!

[Marathaman]

All this "idol-worship" nonsense is getting annoying. This is an archaeology thread, not a religion thread.

If you guys wanna imagine some pure "Sanatan Dharma" without "idol worship" like Islam or something then please find some other thread.

Thanks.

[Licit Mortal]

You have the choice to ignore the postings or the members you do not like reading. Just because it is an archeology thread, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss on the archeological findings. If an archeological discovery, reveals a Vishnu statue, looking like Buddha, there is no harm in speculating whether the entire idea of idolatry could have originated from Buddhism.

So you cannot accuse us of creating a total disconnect with the thread topic. If you do not like, get into partial reading mode or add me to your ignore list!

seems like your whining and hyper criticism about anything and almost everything Indian would never stop in this forum!

Thanks.

[kingkobra]

Originally Posted by Marathaman

All this "idol-worship" nonsense is getting annoying. This is an archaeology thread, not a religion thread.

If you guys wanna imagine some pure "Sanatan Dharma" without "idol worship" like Islam or something then please find some other thread.

Thanks.

It is an Archaeology thread...Idols are part of archaeology...they give us sneak peak into our History which in our case is more mysterious than anywhere else..

[kingkobra]

Originally Posted by Licit Mortal

To me, scholars saying this is very very interesting and it strengthens my belief that the idol worship with all the moorthis that we have today in a hindu society is a legacy left behind by the buddhist religion.

Majority of the ancient idols definitely reflect buddhist statues of east asia and that makes me believe that what we worship as idols of vishnu, varaha, etc. etc.. are nothing but reflection of various buddhist monk's imaginations of various forms of buddha.

Idol worship in my belief definitely started with buddhism and this is precisely what swami vivekananda was also talking about.

Unfortunately, what is disheartening is the fact that Hinduism today has lost its core principle of being a way of life, by following sanatana dharma and the concepts of the six philosophical school of thoughts and has rather become a religion, relying on idol worship, many meaningless rituals, etc..

Everytime, I see people rushing to the nearby temple with liters and liters of milk in their hand to give the demi gods a good lactic acid body rejuvenation everyday, I feel so ashamed to be a part of a society that is ignorant of the fact that the same milk could be used to feed millions of hungry, malnourished and starving babies of this country. Even the so called demi gods would be laughing at what we do. No wonder, why people are losing all their hopes in religion today, because it is just filled with false promises through many meaningless rituals. These rituals(with an exception to vedic rituals and some other scientifically proven rituals) in reality are made to just please the priestly class. By just following the rituals and totally ignoring the traditional teachings of sanatana dharma, we are just fooling ourselves and to me it reminds what I had heard in a movie named "The man from earth" that says "Piety is not what the lessons bring to the people. It is the mistakes people bring to the lessons" What a way to describe what's happening with every religion today on the face of this planet!

wow i just loved your post..thank you..

[kingkobra]

Originally Posted by skganji

. In the Daksha prajapati yagna Lord shiva's associates broke the teeth of Pusa. I was under the impression that mitra, varuna, vayu, pusa, brihaspati are all different personalities who are headed by Lord Indra in the heavenly planet. The puranas consistently have this theme. Infact the Rigveda glorifies all these personalities. The purusa sukta prayer ( 10th mandala) talks about the supreme purusa ( or god) .

I do not believe in Puranas for a second...in Bhavishya Purana it is said that Prophet Muhammad was actually a demon named Mahamada...no doubt in my mind that puranas are very very recent and have been written to fool gullible people..

[barrykul]

Originally Posted by Marathaman

All this "idol-worship" nonsense is getting annoying. This is an archaeology thread, not a religion thread.

If you guys wanna imagine some pure "Sanatan Dharma" without "idol worship" like Islam or something then please find some other thread.

Thanks.

Nice. Nazi training of Witzel invades your thinking! Tell me which religion does not resort to idol worship. Catholics have images of the Lord painted in their Chapels. Core of Islam has the Kabaa (BTW what is in the Kabaa, pray tell) in Mecca around which worshippers congregate. In all Abrahamic faiths there is imagery and ergo idol worship. Idol worship happens everywhere, tis an aid to mortals to concentrate. Christian faith has the Lord in imagery form. I don't understand your Nazi rigidity dismissing anything Indian. No religion is perfect.

There is absolutely no need to demonize idols. If you examine any religion, there is some form of earthly object in church, mosque, temple that has some imagery or other to aid religious congregation and concentration. Most of them engage in some ritual or other, listening to sermons, bowing down, a written word that is recited. As long as humans exist they need these aids for religious purposes.

[Marathaman]

Ah...looks like barrykul took my post about monotheism seriously. I just wanted kingkobras reaction since he was going on about how "sanatan dharm" was monotheistic




Trust me I have nothing against "idolatry" . It's just another belief system and not superior or inferior to any other belief system.

Also, the superiority/ inferiority of belief systems is off-topic so kindly find a new thread for it

[Marathaman]

Anyways from what I can tell, the term "sanatan dharma" is quite recent, dating back to Indian national movement in the late 19th century. It is not mentioned in any Vedas or puranas

[kingkobra]

Originally Posted by Marathaman

Anyways from what I can tell, the term "sanatan dharma" is quite recent, dating back to Indian national movement in the late 19th century. It is not mentioned in any Vedas or puranas

It has been called Sanatan Dharma or Vedic Dharma...The reason there is no mention of name of this religion in Vedas is because the Hrishis and Brahmavadinis who wrote these vedas were starting a way of life and not a cult..

http://agniveer.com/religion-vedas/

[GollumGollum]

Dogma is the enemy of peace, so I don't really wanna say this...

...but monotheism sucks.

It is the worst form of religion.

Everywhere monotheism goes, native traditions are stamped out.

It is imperious, intolerant, philosophically juvenile and boring.

I believe in the brotherhood of all humans - not just those who follow a certain god - with the rest being second-class citizens, "mired in their own ignorance". Monotheism claims to be universalistic - all humans being equal under one religion - but in practice, it divides humans just as badly as nationalism does - because there will always be 'believers' and 'unbelievers'.

Polytheism is more natural and more tolerant - when a polytheistic religion encounters a new deity or ethnic group, the new tradition is just incorporated - like the Cult of Orpheus in Greece.

When you delve deep enough into spirituality, you realise that political ambitions about changing the world are the wrong approach - we can act with our conscious - but dreaming about revolutions will not lead to a happy life - just an uptight existence, where you constantly try to violently force your opinions on others, as if you are their teacher, when you are infact their equal peer, with just as many flaws. As the Tao Te Ching says, being more like water - yielding and accepting of the world as it is, is the only way to be happy. Artificial systems that have been 'reasoned out' like monotheism, are a form of violence - an artist that seperates themself from their audience, and attempts to teach them something, has lost all perspective. We must each find our own raison d'etre, but at least folk heroes and folk deities are natural places to find inspiration.

[skganji]

Originally Posted by kingkobra

I do not believe in Puranas for a second...in Bhavishya Purana it is said that Prophet Muhammad was actually a demon named Mahamada...no doubt in my mind that puranas are very very recent and have been written to fool gullible people..

Vishnu Purana seems to be the oldest purana among all of them . Vayu Purana and Bhagavat Purana seems to be the next . Modern scholars have given dates of 100 BCE to 4th century A.D for Vishnu Purana. H.H.Wilson gives a 1st century BCE date for Vishnu Purana. Any way, some material/incidents in these puranas are definitely old. Some incidents like Vyasa sitting on the banks of River Saraswati are definitely old. I belive some real world people and incidents made into these puranas along with some allegories.

[satchitananda]

Puranas are definitely not as old as the Vedas. The basic idea was to make the complicated insights of Vedas into a more palatable form. First of, we assign the creator of Puranas as Ved Vyasa, per his narrator disciple Lomaharshana (Romaharshana). Even a cursory glance at most puranas seem to have a complex layering of different types of info - IMHO, there is a deliberate mix of cosmology, geography, ethics amongst others along with baseline narrative of a God.

Definitely they have been accorded a second tier when it comes to resolving Dharmic Questions.. as they are only Smritis (Recollections of transcendental experiences). Shrutis (Vedas) as the ultimate goto for conflic resolution along with upanishads.

Having said that Puranas have been the medium of instructing the masses, as also holding the vestigeal connectivity with vedic culture in the larger society via stories and bhakthi.

[ChennaiIndian]

http://www.visvacomplex.com/Tamil_In..._Of_China.html

[skganji]

Originally Posted by Marathaman

That Vishnu looks like it could be from the middle ages - 10th - 11th century onwards me thinks.

I just got the book "The LOST CITY OF DWARAKA" by S.R.Rao. It wasn't clear to me on what was the date of the Vishnu sculpture, I posted in one of my previous posts ( post # : 211) until I read the book. This is what the book has to say.
"The sculpture of Vishnu holding Gada in the upper right hand and cakra in the upper left hand in the onshore excavation in 1979 may represent the Trivikrama form of Vishnu ( plate. CXXX) although two lower hands with Sankha in one of them are missing. This plaque is made of schist. In the Trivikrama form of cult images of Dwaraka and Bet Dwaraka temples, the lower left hand holds Sankha and the lower right a Padma. In the plaque under discussion the cakra is in the upper right and gada in the upper left. Jaya, an attendant and Satyabhama or Rukmini , a consort of Krishna or seen near the left leg of the image. The diety wears a Kiritamukuta under a Chatra ( canopy) in 3 tiers. At the level of gada and chakra are two seated figures which cannot be identified. One of them is carrying a kalasa in the hand. This figure is datable to 9th century on associated ceramic evidence. The Amreli plaques of Vishnu and other dieties are much earlier in date ( Rao, S.R. 1961). There is a marble figure of which two feet are all that remain of this once magnificient diety ( plate . LXXII) from Bet Dwaraka."

[barrykul]

I am highlighting this article to show how f'ed up the Germans had become in their maniacal obsession of Herr Max Mueller's bogus theory of "Aryan". They usurped the swastika as their own and created the Third Reich, exterminating untold number of people, a vast majority being Jews. They took the out-of-wazoo term "Aryan" of Mueller and linked it with the ancient Hindu swastika symbol then turned the whole thing into a killing monster.

India has a right to take these scumbags to International Court and ask for reparation. And Harvard ought to be ashamed of imbeciles like Michael Witzel who continue to propagate the same demented ideology.



Sculpture taken by Nazis likely made from meteorite

A new report about an ancient Tibetan sculpture may sound like something you've seen in the movies. It involves an important archaeological find, it was once in possession of Nazis, and it holds a newly discovered secret. The sculpture, it turns out, was probably carved from a 15,000-year-old meteorite, researchers report. It sounds like Indiana Jones was involved, but not so.

All this is laid out in a report on the statue in the current edition of the journal Meteoritics & Planetary Science. /

The "iron man" statue is thought to be a depiction of the god Vaisravana, the Buddhist King of the North, aka the Hindu deity Kubera, report German researchers led by Elmar Buchner of the University of Stuttgart. The statue was probably carved about 1,000 years ago.The researchers started testing the statue's origins in 2007 after its auction to a collector, who allowed it to be tested.

"In Tibet, meteoric iron used to be carved, but that tradition died out a long time ago, and only ancient artifacts are known," says Buchner and colleagues in a report on the statue in the Meteoritics & Planetary Science journal.

Complicating the investigation, the 23-pound "iron man" has a peculiar history. A Tibetan expedition organized by Nazi SS chief Heinrich Himmler and led by zoologist Ernst Schäfer discovered the statue in 1938. The expedition probably brought the statue to Germany because of the swastika carved in its center, a good luck sign that existed in Tibetan culture long before the Nazis appropriated it as the symbol of their racist ideology.

Chemistry tests show the statue's iron matches fragments of the "Chinga" meteorite field found near the Siberian-Mongolian border in 1913 by gold prospectors, the study says. A large chunk of that meteorite -- the third largest known from the meteorite field -- was probably carved into the statue, Buchner says in a statement: "We believe that this individual meteorite fragment was collected many centuries before."

"All the evidence hangs together that it is from the Chinga meteorite," says Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History curator of meteorites Tim McCoy, who was not part of the study. He called for art historians to analyze the statue more carefully to certify its putative ancient origins, tied by the study team to a Tibetan Buddhist culture roughly 1,000 years old. Iron meteorites have been carved into more ancient objects, such as knives, beads and fishhooks, McCoy says. "But this is the most elaborate object I've ever seen carved from a meteorite. Somebody put a lot of work into this."

"Iron meteorites are basically an inappropriate material for producing sculptures," the study concludes. "The challenging use of the 'iron man' meteorite as well as the partial gilding of the statue implies that the artist was certainly aware of the outstanding (extraterrestrial) nature of the object carved."