Woman dies after abortion request 'refused'

[odlum833]

Still refusing to co-operate with the inquiry, wants an independent public inquiry, says does not trust HSE.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...326953009.html

And the president has broken his mandate of office. He is not allowed speak against the advice of government - is it too much for common sense? Does he understand his role? He does not criticise the government. I wonder what will be made of this today.

The husband gave a very good interview to RTÉ - first on Irish television last night. He is an impressive person. Calm, collected and speaks with clarity given the circumstances. However if he is unwilling to co-operate what else can be done other than scrap the inquiries. There won't be a full public inquiry because of the history of expense and time of such inquiries in the past and the aversion to making lawyers wallets more heavy which angers the public.

Video: http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2012/1121/...e&query=Savita Halappanavar

[Catmalojin]

Pretty interesting:

Key recommendations by expert group for provision of lawful terminations revealed
Updated: 00:26, Friday, 23 November 2012



RTÉ's Prime Time has exclusively seen a key section of an expert group report to address the judgement of the European Court of Human Rights in the A, B and C v Ireland case.

The report provides a number of options on how to implement the European Court of Human Rights ruling which requires the Government to provide legal certainty in this area.

The options reviewed are statutory and non-statutory.

The Taoiseach has promised a decision based on the report.

It outlines two main approaches to implementation: non-statutory and statutory.

The report highlights the advantages and disadvantages of each option.

Non-Statutory implementation

Option one: guidelines

The only option which is non-statutory is the introduction of guidelines which would not have binding force.

This option is unlikely to satisfy our European obligations, ie the Committee of Minsters at the Council of Europe.

All other options would require some form of legislation - either by way of new legislation or amending existing legislation.

Statutory implementation

Option two: Health Minister issues regulations

The report says that "the minsters could not issue regulations without being given the power to do so by enabling legislation.

For this reason "it is not likely to prove a speedier or superior solution than the other legislative options."

Option three: Introduction of legislation alone

The third option is for legislation alone to be introduced.

The advantage of this is that it would allow the Oireachtas the "opportunity to discuss and vote on all the relevant details of the proposed legislation".

The report says that the second advantage would be that "access to lawful termination of pregnancy in Ireland would be put on a statutory and therefore a more secure footing".

The disadvantages of this it that "process of drafting and democratic scrutiny is likely to take a considerable period of time"

Another disadvantage is that "postulating all the details of the assessment and review process in primary legislation might be too rigid an approach.

Even minor changes that might arise following implementation or in light of scientific advances would require full scrutiny and futher passage through the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Both the introduction of Health Minister regulations or legislation will fulfill the requirements set out in the judgement in A,B and C v Ireland.

Option four: Introduction of legislation plus regulations

The final option highlighted in the report is the introduction of legislation plus regulations.

The advantage of having legislation plus regulation is that the role of the Minister for Health "would come under less scrutiny in relation to procedural matters as these would be in the legislation."

Another advantage is that regulations could be amended relatively easily.

This would facilitate changes in the clinical practice, scientific advances and any challenges arising from their implementation.

The disadvantage is the same as outlined in relation to legislation alone, ie "due to the nature of this legislation, the process of drafting and democratic scrutiny is likely to take a considerable period of time."

Option five: New legislation or an amendment to Offences Against the Person Act 1861

Existing legislation under subsections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861 abortion is criminalised.

The repeal or replacement of the act would provide clarity and certainty to the law.

It would comply with Ireland's obligations as set out under the ECHR ruling.

Article 40.3.3 would be adhered to by a modern statement of the law on abortion including measures consistent with the respect to be accorded to the unborn.

The disadvantage of this would be the drafting of the legislation plus the democratic scrutiny is expected to take a considerable period of time.

Story from RTÉ News:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1122/exp...-revealed.html

[future.architect]

Originally Posted by odlum833

Don't think Savita Halappanavar's husband is doing himself any favors here.

Really? How? If I was in his situation I would be doing the same thing.

In sense history repeating itself here. Refusing to hold an independent public enquiry because its 'too expensive', even though it is most definitely the right thing to do?

Remind me how we got into this mess in the first place?

[odlum833]

Husband taking case to European Court of Human Rights

Halappanavar family to proceed with European Court case
Updated: 17:07, Thursday, 29 November 2012




Praveen Halappanavar has given instructions to his solicitor Gerard O'Donnell to proceed with an application to the European Court of Human Rights.

Savita Halappanavar’s family had earlier warned they would make such an application if Minister for Health James Reilly did not agree to a public inquiry into the circumstances of her death by today.

Mr Halappanavar’s solicitor told RTÉ News that in the absence of a full public inquiry his client feels he has no option but to seek legal redress.

The Health Service Executive and Health Information and Quality Authority are both investigating the circumstances surrounding the care and treatment Ms Halappanvar received at University Hospital Galway.

Mr Reilly said when he receives the reports of the two investigations he will take whatever action is needed.

The HIQA investigation will assess whether the services provided complied with the National Standards for Safer Better Healthcare and national and international evidence of what is known to achieve best outcomes.

The HSE is carrying out its clinical review into the death, even though Ms Halappanavar's husband Praveen said he had no confidence in the HSE.

Ms Halappanavar died on 28 October following a miscarriage.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1129/sav...ourt-case.html

[IrishMan2010]

Originally Posted by JD47

This is such a sad story. The poor girl and her family. I am livid at the way this country is run. If it was up to me, people should be able to choose if they want to have an abortion or not. Its their life and their body. If a women should not be allowed have an abortion at the risk of her life, then a fireman should not be allowed to leave a burning building if there is still someone inside.

This is getting a lot of attention in India and so it should. Its scary to think that in this day and age, in this country, we could let something like this happen.

This has given us a bad name. Not only do we look bad but it has also probably made people think twice about moving here to have a baby. The worst thing about this tragic story is that she was looking forward to having a baby here and starting a family and building a future here.

Yeah I agree with everything in this post, I'm ambarrassed for our country by what happened. I'm also 21 and I think most people my age are pro-choice and open minded and I believe it's a good thing for the future, young people can change this country, move forward and progress.

[Catmalojin]

Red C poll: majority demand X case legislation
17:00, 1 December 2012 by Post Reporter

A new opinion poll by Red C and The Sunday Business Post indicates a large majority in favour of legislating for the X case. The poll also reveals a sharp fall in support for Fine Gael.

...

Summary of the poll's findings on each possible option for abortion law:

"Legislate for the X case, which means allowing abortion where the mother's life is threatened, including by suicide." Support: 85%

"A constitutional amendment to limit the X case, by excluding a threat of suicide as a grounds for abortion, but still allowing abortion, where the mother's life is threatened outside of suicide." Support: 63%

"A constitutional amendment to extend the right to abortion to all cases where the health of the mother is seriously threatened and also in cases of rape." Support: 82%

"A constitutional amendment to allow for legal abortion in any case where a woman requests it." Support: 36%

.....

STATE OF THE PARTIES

Fine Gael: 28% (-6)
Labour: 14% (+1)
Fianna Fáil: 20% (+1)
Sinn Fein: 17% (no change)
Independents/others: 21% (+4)

.....

Red C interviewed a random sample of 1,003 adults aged 18+ by telephone between November 26 and 28.

.....

For more detailed results and analysis of how the poll was conducted, see tomorrow's digital edition or print edition of The Sunday Business Post.

Sunday Business Post

...

[odlum833]

The Bishops have come all out against against abortion legislation under any circumstances this week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...0.html?via=rel

The government has to be very careful with how it legislates so that the door is not left open to "abortion on demand". That's the problem with having the word suicide in legislation. Because of the impossibility of determining the risk of suicide of the mother it means that her death would be a possibility but the termination of an unborn child would be a certainty.

This is going to get rough!

[belfastuniguy]

Since when do the bishops think they have the right to interfere?

You'd think they realise that their opinion carries no merit any longer and I doubt many people are going to take kindly be being lectured by an institution that raped and brutalised generations of young boys and girls.

I think the bishops would be wise to keep their mouths shut on the issue.

[odlum833]

They have a right to their opinions - not to dictate. They don't speak for the majority of catholics or people in Ireland on abortion IMO to the extent that the vast majority want limited and regulated access to abortion when a woman's life is in danger.

They are also pissed off about the government criticising the vatican and expelling the papal nuncio.

Check this out

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...m-3332412.html


I see a major confrontation brewing.

[odlum833]

[gothicform]

He also categorically ruled out including rape or abnormalities in the womb as grounds for abortion.

so again this would have happened... the doctors could have hidden behind the idea that the woman wasn't in danger so it was an abortion on grounds for abnormality.

[belfastuniguy]

They can seek revenge all they want, they're nothing more than a group of self-serving child molesters that have done nothing but protect their own. There isn't a more discredited institution in Europe than the Irish Roman Catholic Church.

As for rape....that case is the precursor of Case X, I fully expect rape to be grounds for abortion.

[odlum833]

Rape won't be a grounds. That has been made clear in recent days. I said before that it's politically a dangerous topic and that's why it's so watered down.

[belfastuniguy]

Originally Posted by odlum833

Rape won't be a grounds. That has been made clear in recent days. I said before that it's politically a dangerous topic and that's why it's so watered down.

It's easy to get around it. Woman is raped and she wants an abortion, she can just claim to have suicidal thoughts. If she's denied and then kills herself then yet more scandal envelopes the Irish government and more shame for the Irish people.

I'm pretty such there will be a provision for rape victims.

You didn't expect legislation on matter a few weeks ago, you were wrong then and you're wrong now.

[odlum833]

There is no legislation. Not till next year. Mark my words this is only the start. There will be no grounds for rape. Absolute cert. Many in Fine Gael will struggle to live with just suicide in legislation for goodness sake. I expect some to fall overboard with even that. And wait till the catholic lobby gets going.

[belfastuniguy]

Originally Posted by odlum833

There is no legislation. Not till next year. Mark my words this is only the start. There will be no grounds for rape. Absolute cert. Many in Fine Gael will struggle to live with just suicide in legislation for goodness sake. I expect some to fall overboard with even that. And wait till the catholic lobby gets going.

We'll see, I think the tide has turned however. If FG want to continue governing then they'll have to compromise. Fact

[odlum833]

Labour are the minority party in gov. Of course they are very liberal. But they have got themselves in a situation where they don't want a general election over something like this because they know they face a hammering if an election was tomorrow. FG are in a far stronger position electorally. I don't see Labour forcing this issue of abortion because the blueshirts will just walk out.

[odlum833]

Originally Posted by belfastuniguy

It's easy to get around it. Woman is raped and she wants an abortion, she can just claim to have suicidal thoughts.

Therein lies the problem. Do you support "abortion on demand"?


Actually, and given the north's own laws, what is your position exactly on abortion?

Do you agree with regulation? And if you do can you not see the problem with this whole situation i.e the potential loopholes?

[belfastuniguy]

I'm pro-choice....not pro-abortion. There's a difference. If a woman wants an abortion then that's her choice, I have no right to tell her she can't have it and nor does anyone else. Until the foetus is viable outside the womb then the woman has the final say.

I would like NI to be brought into line with the rest of the UK and I see that happening but only after a legal challenge. Because like all so called 'moral decisions' our politicians lack the balls and foresight to implement reform and leave the hard choices to the courts.

[odlum833]

Originally Posted by belfastuniguy

If a woman wants an abortion then that's her choice

Firstly I agree on many things politicians are not brave enough but I have highlighted this because this is abortion on demand you seem to want on the basis a woman has a choice.

A woman also has responsibility. I don't want a situation where if a woman willingly has unprotected consensual sex (note I am not talking about rape or incest) and she becomes pregnant that she can just have an abortion like purchasing everyday items in a convenience shop. We (as in "the west") make life too easy for the feckless and irresponsible - and you want to make it even easier? What about a woman's responsibility for her actions? Or does that come in to this for you at all?