South African Politics

[Inertia]

Originally Posted by NicSA

Can expats vote in the elections? I want to do my bit to support the DA, but I'm living in Japan. Considering expats are overwhelmingly likely to support the DA, I would guess they have a strong incentive to motivate us to vote. Counting U.K., U.S. Australia, NZ, Canada etc. must be at least 1 mill eligible voters.

Yes you can. However only for national elections. Relatively few do it, though

[ToxicBunny]

Absolutely sickening... How does this cretin actually stay president?

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Po...veals-20121207

http://mg.co.za/article/2012-12-07-0...flowed-to-zuma

http://mg.co.za/article/2012-12-07-0...-right-to-know

http://mg.co.za/article/2012-12-06-a...ctors-part-one

http://mg.co.za/article/2012-12-07-0...ctors-part-two

http://mg.co.za/article/2012-12-07-0...wards-for-zuma

http://mg.co.za/article/2012-12-07-0...ps-and-nkandla

In any other country, even 10% of this type of story would have resulted in all involved resigning.

[annman]

In any other democracy, with an educated electorate, he would be impeached without delay. He is IMO the worst democratic president in the world. We have the most disturbing "battered wife syndrome" electorate. It doesn't make me angry more than it's just so tragically sad!

[briker]

This person has no moral values, as the kind that re-elected him to be their leader. It is pathetic and truly sad that these scum ride on the hopes of those who put them there in the first place. Then again, you reap what you sow.. And that's the reason why I'm not in SA these days.

[SUNS 25]

Iwantintelligentdebathere!

[Inertia]

Originally Posted by SUNS 25

Iwantintelligentdebathere!

That would require you not to participate then

[SUNS 25]

ANC unity too strong to allow a major split!

By ANTHONY BUTLER, teacher in politics at the University of Cape Town.

Conflicts between the national ANC and provincial offices have been a perennial feature of the movement, but today’s conflicts are not merely a continuation of such divisions. The ANC’s regional barons are now plugged into state tender and patronage systems and the centre cannot easily disconnect them.

More important, class divisions are now deepening. The black middle class is growing through its access to public-sector employment. ANC leaders, including deployees in the public sector, are accumulating personal wealth through business dealings with the state. The power of the rising business and professional elites is growing, embedded in the provincial and regional structures of the ANC.

Most ANC activists and members, however, enjoy a precarious prosperity or remain trapped in poverty. The interests, and so policy preferences, of these different classes are increasingly diverging.

Generational strains are layered across class tensions. A growing proportion of the ANC’s active membership has no experience of the struggle for liberation and no respect for conventions of seniority.

Other historical sources of division are being brought back to life in the struggle to mobilise economically marginalised activists behind cynical leadership cartels. In his own rise to the ANC presidency, Jacob Zuma appealed to tribalist, homophobic and religious forms of conservatism to create a winning coalition.

Because South Africans are not irrevocably committed to the modern, wide-ranging opportunities remain for political entrepreneurs to mobilise around tradition, African authenticity, and the land. The chiefs once helped lead the ANC — before they let apartheid undermine their moral authority — but now they are politically resurgent.

The leadership of the ANC Youth League, and more recently of the South African Communist Party, has demonstrated that calculated racial divisiveness can also bring political rewards to those who are willing to sacrifice the ANC’s non racial traditions.

In the face of such tendencies towards division, there are four capabilities that allow the ANC to retain its residual organisational cohesion. First, it controls national government, eight provincial administrations and most municipalities. The ANC centre can deliver public services and unrivalled economic opportunities to those who demonstrate their loyalty. Many opportunities to exchange public services and welfare benefits for votes in poorer rural areas are currently not fully exploited. The ANC’s fundraising advantages could quite quickly be turned into a full-blown financial asymmetry that would debilitate opposition campaigning.

Second, the ANC continues to possess something of a "rational centre". Many activists will step back from infighting to insist upon dialogue and compromise. Policy debates continue to be influenced by reason and interests.

Third, the songs that are in evidence at ANC and alliance conferences testify to the divisions in the movement. But the ANC has been able to propagate a fairly coherent historical narrative that justifies the eternal right of ANC leaders — and only ANC leaders — to rule.

Fourth, the opposition remains trapped in a racial dead end partly of its own making. Democratic Alliance leaders somehow seem further than ever from honestly confronting whites’ culpability for today’s social pathologies. For this reason, it cannot capture disaffected African voters.

Finally, the ANC can always reiterate its central value of unity. No matter how much membership is abused for personal gain, joining the ANC continues to represent a moral commitment. The ANC is almost a religious community; and division is a threat to its one true body. Only those who are in some way morally defective could participate in a rival political organisation that divides instead of uniting.

Predictions of the imminent fragmentation of the movement have been a staple of political journalism for more than a decade. But there are strong reasons to believe that a significant split in the ANC will not occur in the near future — not even if a significant minority of the delegates at Mangaung do not accept the legitimacy of its leadership elections. The ship may be slowly sinking and those on board may be fighting; but if and when they do go down, they are likely to go down together.

Source: http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/2012...a-major-split1

[annman]

"The ANC’s regional barons are now plugged into state tender and patronage systems and the centre cannot easily disconnect them." ...basically admitting endemic corruption.

"A growing proportion of the ANC’s active membership has no experience of the struggle"...But you claim it can't fracture, yet say the main method of their politicking is dying?

"The leadership of the ANC Youth League, and more recently of the South African Communist Party, has demonstrated that calculated racial divisiveness can also bring political rewards"... So, the ANC are becoming racial nationalists; their vitriol against the DA is therefore by inference, highly hypocritical.

"Many opportunities to exchange public services and welfare benefits for votes in poorer rural areas are currently not fully exploited." ... Pure Patronage: So they don't espouse democracy!

"The ANC’s fundraising advantages could quite quickly be turned into a full-blown financial asymmetry that would debilitate opposition campaigning" ... So, it's some miracle that where they don't govern, the ANC is bankrupt? Seems businesses are just queuing to fund the ANC!

"Fourth, the opposition remains trapped in a racial dead end partly of its own making. (Democratic Alliance) ...For this reason, it cannot capture disaffected African voters."... So every election since 2004 didn't happen? COSATU-Youth Wage march didn't happen? DA congress 2012 didn't happen? Winning Philippi ward didn't happen? Limpopo/ECape ward votes growing 300% didn't happen? Tlokwe moment didn't happen? Someone lives under a rock!

"Joining the ANC continues to represent a moral commitment. The ANC is almost a religious community; and division is a threat to its one true body." ... Oh, like a CULT!

"The ship may be slowly sinking and those on board may be fighting; but if and when they do go down, they are likely to go down together." ... Huh, almost contradictory conclusion to the gist of most of the article?

[goliath01]

Annman, why do you insist to counter-argument with someone who knows shit all about SAs problems and its people. Its pointless! Can't you see his just another Julius Malema, Uncle Bob fan. When SA is on it's knees he will then say that progress has been made and it's for the better of the country. No knowledge what-so-ever of the countrys past, economics or social background, nada! Give it a rest, he has no credibility what-so-ever, and is seen by the majority on the boards as a complete idiot, he's the only one who hasn't realised it yet!
The only political analysis he's good for is the toilet saga, his department.

[James0]

Reading the article on its own, it's pretty dead on. The article does not claim that the ANC has not been losing electoral ground. It does not claim that they should govern the country or are doing it well. It merely claims that they probably will not split. The point is well argued and the author is right.

It would probably be more worthwhile to talk about what the article is saying than to use SUNS's opinions as a straw man for it.

[goliath01]

^ Look back at his previous posts and see if you can find anything worth mentioning.

[James0]

I don't understand? I was basically saying that the article is interesting and makes a good point; SUNS's comments have not and are easily defeated (hence straw man).

[Caisson Boy]

One needs only look at the exclamation mark added to the title to understand what a complete waste of space SUNS is....

[James0]

Totally agree that the exclamation marks and pom poms are infuriating: SUNS is thrilled when something supports the conclusion he's already come to, and doesn't attempt any objectivity. That's why I'm not attempting to debate him. But I'm so confused as to why everyone seems more interested in bashing SUNS than debating an article that is pretty interesting, regardless of who posted it here.

Dare I say it, but would people be more engaging if the article toed the "fall of the ANC"/"rise of the DA" line?

[Counter]

Jacob Zuma will be re-elected in Mangaung this weekend.

Am I correct to say that this now seems very likely?

[SUNS 25]

Si ce commentaire là vient d'un mec qui se dit raisonnable, je plains l'avenir de l'Afrique du Sud! Get in life goliath01!!

Originally Posted by goliath01

Suns, I have nothing against you. But please don't come with your communism, aka ANC propaganda onto my lap. Several forumers who live in JHB are complaining about the mess that it's in. You and Diggerdog, who don't live here, don't pay taxes, are the ones still pointing fingers.
Areas of South of Johannesburg are in such a state, I thought we were in Mogadishu, no jokes.
Nigerians all over the place, prostitution, drugs, people walking around with guns, a unbelieveable experience, oh, and JMPD sitting around.

[SUNS 25]

Caisson Boy,

Vous savez comment je m'exprime en français, et le sentiment que j'ai sur ce "thread", je vous l'ai fait part... si vous l'aviez oublié, je vous conseils de revoir notre discussion précédente!

[Lydon]

Please speak English, considering this is an English forum. The point is to engage with people.

[annman]

SUNS = TROLL! I've told him MANY times before, I don't go to Gabonese forums and run my mouth off, yet he does it here, even being as rude as typing in a different language in a clearly English-medium forum. Additionally, don't type your entire speech like you're typing a headline... it's online SHOUTING and freekin' annoying!

I would NEVER go to another forum and make a nuisance of myself and impose my language of choice on an Arabic, Russian, French or German forum.

He's becoming like a tiresome mosquito that keeps you awake at night... Can't reason with it, can't shoo it away, can't swat it, can't spray it and every time you think it's gone, it bites you on the face.

BREAKING NEWS: Etolls are going ahead: DA could win Gauteng.

[Caisson Boy]

SUNS, I ONCE said that you were better at expressing your opinion in French. But since then you have just been an annoying, ignorant, little troll whose only contribution has been reposting rubbish about how fantastic the ANC is... and you have done so just in order to be a nuisance. There is absolutely no original thought into what you say, you rely only on the worst kind of internet rubbish that you can get your claws on, you have absolutely no idea of what is going on on the ground in South Africa. You only have a perverse interest in South Africa because your own country has nothing worth writing about. You are absolutely the worst possible type of forumer, since everything you do is for effect. You have zero contribution to make here, and there is not one single person who thinks that you are smart (except yourself), interesting, relevant or even mildly entertaining. And nobody has been interested in engaging in anything meaningful with you because you are so pig ignorant that there is no point. Why don't you apply for a job in the ANC? I'm sure you would excel in its ranks.