EUROPE | Eurostar and Inter-country Railways

[33Hz]

It does seem amazing that something can double the delivery time on a known quantity like a train.

DB sounds very annoyed. Eurostar are quiet. Alstom are probably saying 'told you so'.

[Sopomon]

Originally Posted by 33Hz

Another year delay

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/1...8AL0GJ20121122

Not another, the actual further delay was unspecified. The trains which were meant to be delivered next month have been held up for some time longer, but we don't know how much.

Although a poor showing from Siemens, it's probably better if they sort out the technical issues themselves, rather than how AB handled the Danish IC4 debacle (not to mention Fyra).

[cle]

Lyon and Aix this year:

http://www.eurostar.com/UK/uk/leisur...o_provence.jsp

[groentje]

Test rides for Eurostar's and DB's Velaro's would start later this year, with testing in Belgium this summer.

[K_]

Originally Posted by cle

Lyon and Aix this year:

http://www.eurostar.com/UK/uk/leisur...o_provence.jsp

Passengers will have to debark in Lille however, and go through security with their luggage and then reboard the train, thus completely negating the advantage of a direct connection. You'd be faster taking a later train from Lyon to Lille, and transferring to the same Eurostar...

I hope however that this silliness does get a lot of bad press... I would hand out standard complaint letters to all the passengers that they can sign and send to parliament.

[Coccodrillo]

What about if were British citizens to want these stricts controls?

[1772]

Originally Posted by 33Hz

Was thinking exactly this, but will the loons at UK Border Control allow a train that was originally a Frankfurt - Amsterdam service then become an Amsterdam - London service?

How is it loony to want to control it's borders?

[K_]

Originally Posted by 1772

How is it loony to want to control it's borders?

We did quite well without border controls for a long time in Europe. And most of continental Europe does well without border controls right now.
But even then, what's impossible about just checking passengers on the train?
And why should British border control care if a train that does Amsterdam London did a Frankfurt - Amsterdam service before that? Other than out of lunatic paranoia, that is. So yes, if they care about that they are loonies.

[makita09]

UK Border controls have been purely down to politics and nothing to do with reality since forever. So yes, the result is loony. Daily Mail + Tory rightwingers = no sensible discussion whatsoever.

[Theijs]

Weird: when I leave the UK by Eurostar to enter Schengenarea (continental Europe), the customs check is in London. Why no arrival check over there?

[Suburbanist]

Because entry and exit checks are both made at the same time (embarkation).

[Stainless]

Originally Posted by Theijs

Weird: when I leave the UK by Eurostar to enter Schengenarea (continental Europe), the customs check is in London. Why no arrival check over there?

Because they fear the train will be full of asylum seekers demanding free council houses the moment they step off the train. All ways of entering the UK except air travel involve pre clearance to avoid this. Instead of adding destinations with this convoluted process in Lille, they should run more services to Avignon than one a week. I looked at doing this a while ago and even their website gave lower prices for a TGV-Eurostar combination on the same day. If they have the customs facilities then they might as well use them. I doubt many British customs officers would complain about being stationed in the south of France all summer.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Stainless

Because they fear the train will be full of asylum seekers demanding free council houses the moment they step off the train

You know, you can just send them back...

[China Hand]

Originally Posted by K_

We did quite well without border controls for a long time in Europe. And most of continental Europe does well without border controls right now.
But even then, what's impossible about just checking passengers on the train?
And why should British border control care if a train that does Amsterdam London did a Frankfurt - Amsterdam service before that? Other than out of lunatic paranoia, that is. So yes, if they care about that they are loonies.

They are a sovereign nation and they can and should do as they please and ignore being told what to do by other nations on another continent.

Sovereignty, is the concept.

[K_]

Originally Posted by China Hand

They are a sovereign nation and they can and should do as they please and ignore being told what to do by other nations on another continent.

Sovereignty, is the concept.

Sure. And in the late 19th century the nations of Europe were a lot more sovereign then they are now, and did a lot more as they pleased as they do now.
And they let people move across borders largely unchecked. You didn't need to carry passport or id papers in most of Europe then.

So yes, the're sovereign. They're also being stupid.
Are they entitled to stupidity? Yes.
Am I allowed to point out their silliness? Ditto...

[Slartibartfas]

Originally Posted by China Hand

They are a sovereign nation and they can and should do as they please and ignore being told what to do by other nations on another continent.

Sovereignty, is the concept.

Foreign continent?

from wikipedia.com

Sure its the British Islands but obviously they are commonly considered to be part of Europe in geographic as well as political terms. London is 1 and a half hours away from Brussels - by train! Its not much longer to Paris and there are decent connections to Amsterdam, Frankfurt and even Zürich, all by train. By plane you'd reach any European city in no time anyway.

Britons might wish to leave the Union and to go towards splendid isolation in Europe, but they can't change geographic facts. They are part of Europe and they have to live with it, maybe they want a political divorce but Europe will never be a foreign continent.


And those people who still believe in the fairy tale of absolute sovereignty, should wake up and face reality, even if there were no EU at all it would not exist.

[China Hand]

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Foreign continent?

Sure its the British Islands but obviously they are commonly considered to be part of Europe in geographic as well as political terms.

People from The UK, routinely refer to Europe in these terms:

"I am going to Europe for my holiday."
"My brother got back from Europe and we..."
"Yeah, Europeans they..."

The mindset of those from the UK is that Europe is some other place than the UK. You cannot go someplace if you are already there. That's like saying I am going to China when I am sitting in Beijing.

Politically the UK has always been distinct from Europe and many wars have been fought to maintain this distinction.

The UK has the pound sterling, not the Euro. And so on.

And those people who still believe in the fairy tale of absolute sovereignty, should wake up and face reality, even if there were no EU at all it would not exist.

People like you are why sovereignty exists. When you begin telling others what to do in their country, issues begin to occur as Europe is realizing. So someone like you works in Brussels, and then those who prefer sovereignty riot in Greece and Spain.

[China Hand]

Originally Posted by K_

So yes, the're sovereign. They're also being stupid.
Are they entitled to stupidity? Yes.
Am I allowed to point out their silliness? Ditto...

Yes you are. As am I when I point out that you and Slartibartfas are Authoritarians who want to remove state sovereignty because you think you know better.

[Slartibartfas]

Originally Posted by China Hand

People from The UK, routinely refer to Europe in these terms:

"I am going to Europe for my holiday."
"My brother got back from Europe and we..."
"Yeah, Europeans they..."

The mindset of those from the UK is that Europe is some other place than the UK. You cannot go someplace if you are already there. That's like saying I am going to China when I am sitting in Beijing.

Politically the UK has always been distinct from Europe and many wars have been fought to maintain this distinction.

The UK has the pound sterling, not the Euro. And so on.

All of which changes nothing about the reality that the UK is part of Europe.

In London people also tend to say, that they just came back from "the City" when they arrive at their home which is located somewhere in London. That does not mean that their flat is not in London. Same is the case in Vienna btw. We are also driving "in die Stadt", even when we are already in it and just are on the way to the first district. Obviously your logic is flawed on this one.

Every European nation loves to uphold its supposed exceptionalism and there are indeed aspects unique to all nations, some of them have more of that some have less but all of them undeniably root solidly in common European traditions and cultural/political/scientific movements. That is of course also true for the UK as for other European countries. For goodness sake, the British ruling dynasty is German and you know why? Because only a century or two ago, European countries were ruled by pan-European elites where almost any ruler was in one way or another related to the other rulers.

People like you are why sovereignty exists. When you begin telling others what to do in their country, issues begin to occur as Europe is realizing. So someone like you works in Brussels, and then those who prefer sovereignty riot in Greece and Spain.

Sovereignty in its absolute form, as you apparently believe in does NOT exist, with me or without me. Its a myth. No European country can do whatever it likes, none. All of them experience very real limitations to their sovereignty and they also would if Europe would be a harbour of proud totally (supposedly) independent fatherlands as you probably would like them to be. Endless sovereignty, even if it could exist, would not help Greece or Spain to get out of their severe economic malaise either. Only painful reforms will do so, and if they were not part of the EU, that would be no different.

[China Hand]

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

All of which changes nothing about the reality that the UK is part of Europe.

Incorrect. Britons and those in the UK, on the main, do not think of themselves as Europeans.

all of them undeniably root solidly in common European traditions and cultural/political/scientific movements. That is of course also true for the UK as for other European countries.

Perhaps you and I read different history books. Mine do not have a chapter on the rise of UK Fascism and the subsequent attempted invasion of Europe. Maybe yours has this missing chapter.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, the UK has different values than Europe.

Endless sovereignty, even if it could exist, would not help Greece or Spain to get out of their severe economic malaise either. Only painful reforms will do so, and if they were not part of the EU, that would be no different.

If Greece and Spain had not entered the EU and the monetary union their economies would not have experienced the gross distortions that now must be repaid. Without the promise of endless Euros from the North, they would not have gotten into such dire straits.