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Old December 9th, 2012, 09:12 PM   #541
M60
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Totally off topic... apologies
I don't think Piccadilly Gardens will ever be a pleasant place unless it loses its functionality of being a Bus terminus. Any change to this, however, would require significant changes elsewhere as Piccadilly Gardens is the most convenient place for passengers to alight, as it is adjacent to the shopping area, central business area, transport hubs (Chorlton Street, Piccadilly, Metrolink stops).


Could TfGM start charging operators for using their bus stations?
This could incentivise operators to terminate elsewhere (Albert Square, Stevenson Square, Shudehill).
This could see the crappy, fume-creating Finglands, Magic Bus services terminating elsewhere.

If this occured, Piccadilly Gardens could be made one way, minimising the need for turning and reducing the amount of stands by half.
You could run buses (admittedly less services) from Portland Street-Bus Station-Mosley Street (reverse the one way designation)-New York Street-Portland Street.
The busway between the central paved part of the bus station and Piccadilly Plaza could be made into public realm.

Do any other cities have problems with their major bus terminus making the surrounding part of the city ugly?
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Old December 9th, 2012, 09:17 PM   #542
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Its the people who use the buses at Piccadilly who make it ugly. Its an undeniable fact and I challenge anybody to argue.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 09:38 PM   #543
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Ugly as in the litter that people drop or ugly as in the people who use PG are genuinely horrific to look at?


M60 - I think it's important that our bus interchanges/terminals are linked to the city centre's Metrolink stops. Then they're transport hubs instead of 'places where them bus things stop'
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Old December 9th, 2012, 10:34 PM   #544
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JD Sports emblazoned poor folk.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 10:36 PM   #545
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and tweed jacket wearing, quiffed do’ed-up, opinionated ratboys
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Old December 9th, 2012, 10:41 PM   #546
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...yeah, all kinds of people use buses you cretin.
But generally in most cities the areas around a major railway station or bus intercharge are plagued by twats
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Old December 9th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #547
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Exactly, ‘all kinds of people’ Barrymore.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 12:17 AM   #548
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just realized VD boy (can't you change that name or are really called Valerie Deville or something like that, being ironic or actually have a sexually transmitted disease. If so then it's the GUM clinic for you.)

Well just realized PG is Piccadilly Gardens not a new brand of illicit medication. I am not wholly concerned about the regeneration of St Peters Square.

Ideally the trams would run underground, thus allowing the square to be clutter free and resume being a true public space.

However it would be frighteningly difficult for a tram to first climb down from the elevated track at Manchester Central and then descend further down a tunnel under the square. Even more so going up on a frosty Tuesday morning in January. And the of course there is the cost, that in itself stymies the whole thing anyway.

So in reality world, the trams will wander across the square like metallic wilder beast.

I see the Damm Square in Amsterdam and I don't worry.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 12:45 AM   #549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seasonedbest View Post
Its the people who use the buses at Piccadilly who make it ugly. Its an undeniable fact and I challenge anybody to argue.
They seem to come from far and wide. The bus stop on the City Tower side is all right but on the NQ side? They all look like jobless vagabonds from north Manchester who are trying to kill time.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 02:40 AM   #550
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Moving on from the quite honestly repugnant sneering hate of the bus-riding public, I think the use of Oldham Street-Piccadilly-Lever Street 'horseshoe' for bus stops is ridiculous... often a total pavement cluster**** on that whole area. Not sure what previous plans there've been but it would be ideal to relocate the services to a proper bus station slightly further east of the centre, maybe on the Tib Street/Church Street car park, or on the site of those crappy one-storey units on Newton Street, though that's maybe a bit far out. Stephenson Square would've been ideal but it's getting a bit of a buzz around it now. Anyone remember why Lever Street bus station closed in the first place? Was the land just sold to Argent to make a buck?

edit: Answered my own question: http://mancunian1001.wordpress.com/2...e-bus-termini/

Last edited by tomegranate; December 10th, 2012 at 01:04 PM.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 12:57 PM   #551
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You may recall the proposal of a few years back (TIF funding and all that) to relocate the local bus terminal from Piccadilly Gardens to Chorlton Street - and the long distance buses from Chorlton Street to Mayfield.

If 'Metrolink Central' will in future be St Peter's Square rather than Piccadilly, then arguably this could be revived; Chorlton Street being closer to St Peter's Square.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 09:57 PM   #552
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Quote:
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there was some plans to build a huge contemporary building over the wall..
I've got a sledgehammer. Maybe other people do too. Maybe we could arrange something.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 12:39 AM   #553
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I wish British architects would spent a 25 minute vacation in any french/spanish/italian/ whatever city so they could learn what a nice public space looks like
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:18 AM   #554
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Under 6ft of water?
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Old January 2nd, 2013, 02:26 PM   #555
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Manchester doesn't hang around - 2013's construction projects have now begun!

Quote:
Work starts on transformation of St Peter's Square in city centre
January 02, 2013

Engineers have started exploratory works as part of the multi-million-pound redevelopment of St Peter’s Square.

As part of the works Lloyd Street next to the town hall is closed to all vehicles and will not reopen until noon on Monday.

Plans to dismantle and move the cenotaph from the square were approved by councillors in November.

The war memorial will move across St Peter’s Square to a new site closer to the town hall as part of a major redevelopment.

The move was cleared after English Heritage withdrew its objection that there had not been a ‘clear and convincing justification’ for the plan.

The grade-II listed monument will be transferred from its current island site between St Peter’s Square Metrolink platform and Mosley Street to a spot opposite the Cooper Street entrance to the town hall.

Memorial plaques will also be moved to the new spot – which is set to include a grassed area for quiet reflection;

The site is due to be unveiled in 2014 – following a period when the cenotaph will be kept in storage.

St Peter’s Cross, which marks the original location of St Peter’s Church, will be restored and reassembled in its current location following the work.

A planning blueprint for the new-look square was approved by the council’s executive committee in September.

The proposals also include the installation of a link connecting the town hall complex and Central Library on Library Walk.

The blueprint also includes the eventual redevelopment of the former Odeon cinema and Theatre Royal sites as well as the commissioning of a memorial to he Peterloo massacre.

A document setting out the plans said: "The development and delivery of all components within this regeneration initiative is critical.

"The overall vision is assembled from a series of inextricably linked parts, each reliant upon the other, all connected and all fundamental to the success of the whole."

City council leader Sir Richard Leese said at the time: "Realising this vision for St Peter’s Square will result in a world-class space – creating an impressive setting for our civic buildings and monuments, improving the public services delivered from them and attracting private sector investment and jobs."

The square is set to include a new city-centre Metrolink crossing. A public inquiry about the new line will be held in Manchester at the end of January.
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Old January 2nd, 2013, 02:32 PM   #556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifive605 View Post
I wish British architects would spent a 25 minute vacation in any french/spanish/italian/ whatever city so they could learn what a nice public space looks like
I've been saying this for years. Even now we don't seem to be learning from past errors. "A grassed area for quiet reflection" - with trams hurtling past every few minutes, I don't think so.

Last edited by NQ Lee; January 3rd, 2013 at 03:52 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 03:27 AM   #557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NQ Lee View Post
I've been saying this for years. Even now we don't seem to be learning from past errors. "A grassed area for quiet reflection" - with Trams hurtling past every few minutes, I don't think so.
I agree, but alas, even if you'd demolished the Metrolink, St Peter's Square still wouldn't meet its "world-class" remit.

You'd still be left with a square that is, by international standards, a very small space, bounded quite sharply by two busy through roads in Princess Street and Oxford Street-Peter Street, and encroached upon by a row of unattractive office buildings culminating in Century House (which is the only truly graceful building in the set).

For St Peter's Square to be really world-class, you'd need to:
  • demolish the Mosley Street row of offices to alleviate the cramped sensation of the current configuration
  • reposition 1 St Peter's Square backwards onto the current Odeon site for the same reason
  • close one of either Princess Street or Oxford Street-Peter Street to vehicle traffic in order to effect a more serene and less congested atmosphere (however you feel about the current implementation of Exchange Square, the restrictions upon vehicle traffic along Corporation Street have significantly enhanced the functionality of the space and also improved its ambience, yielding a more pleasant and relaxed space overall)
  • and, of course, remove all trace of the Metrolink, which would require dramatically rerouting the system at massive cost
Given none of these were ever going to happen (except for possibly the positioning of 1 St Peter's Square) I think it's probably to the credit of the involved parties that the current plan looks as good as it does (although I suppose it is dangerous to settle for comparative merit and not intrinsic merit).

Last edited by retroscient; January 3rd, 2013 at 03:41 AM.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 04:00 PM   #558
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I like the idea of repositioning the war memorial. I don't think it's current position is very appropriate at all. As for the rest of the plans, I would have gone for a traditional fountain in the centre of the sqaure. Manchester doesn't have any decent fountains. This is a real shame as other European cities are full of them and they really do add to the feeling of a nice peaceful space.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 06:29 PM   #559
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M60 View Post
Totally off topic... apologies
I don't think Piccadilly Gardens will ever be a pleasant place unless it loses its functionality of being a Bus terminus. Any change to this, however, would require significant changes elsewhere as Piccadilly Gardens is the most convenient place for passengers to alight, as it is adjacent to the shopping area, central business area, transport hubs (Chorlton Street, Piccadilly, Metrolink stops).


Could TfGM start charging operators for using their bus stations?
This could incentivise operators to terminate elsewhere (Albert Square, Stevenson Square, Shudehill).
This could see the crappy, fume-creating Finglands, Magic Bus services terminating elsewhere.

If this occured, Piccadilly Gardens could be made one way, minimising the need for turning and reducing the amount of stands by half.
You could run buses (admittedly less services) from Portland Street-Bus Station-Mosley Street (reverse the one way designation)-New York Street-Portland Street.
The busway between the central paved part of the bus station and Piccadilly Plaza could be made into public realm.

Do any other cities have problems with their major bus terminus making the surrounding part of the city ugly?
They already do charge them!
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Old January 9th, 2013, 04:26 PM   #560
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And the app for the realm gets decided as well.

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/egov_do..._Square_V2.pdf

Looks to be an objection from someone related to the 1SPS development (KPMG?), they don't seem to like the 'garden' feature outside the building (p.11 of the report), 'The serious concerns raised by this occupier of the building at pre application stage have been ignored'.
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