MISC | What's your vision for a future airport?

[mwg12a]

Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams

Sure, I've considered that, but this also helps the well-wishers as to not clump themselves into just a few areas within the airport. I think that a shopping mall can help not only the passengers who might want a last-minute souvenir from the Philippines before boarding their planes, but it will also allow well-wishers to shop around before their relatives leave or arrive. It will not only break the clumps we see at both the arrival and departure levels, but it will also help boost the country's image as a shopping destination. The most successful airports in the world would have a lot of shops that would give you an impression that you're in a mini-mall, complete with amenities that you can find in a real mall, so why not replicate that with the new airport? Safety? I don't think it's safety issue... Possibly with customs, sure, but I don't think it won't be as big of a concern unless someone deliberately tries to plan an attack somewhere in the premises or on board. Why won't you trust someone to have shops inside the airport that could bring the shopping experience closer to visitors?

The difference with the airport you're comparing with around the world is that, unlike NAIA, the international airport is just a terminal end of travel. Very seldom you'd see transitting international passengers within the terminal. That the international airport like NAIA only have 7 million passengers yearly while the ones you see overseas have alot more. Well wishers and greeters can do their mall shopping regardless at Malls nearby. The culture of hauling the whole barangay to send off or greet airline passengers should stop, it's a waste of time and resources when hellos and goodbyes can be done at home before departure or upon arrival.

I am not sure if you actually noticed that the international wings of most international terminals even in asia especially for transitting international passengers, they are secured and less shops. You can only see more shops or concessionaires if you leave the international wing going to your domestic gates for connection. What you would see in the international wing would not be as extensive as in the domestic wing and that the amenities you can make use in the international wing are business class lounges.

Narita as well as Icheon is a comon transit point for international passengers with another ongoing travel to another international destination in asia. It didn't really seems like a big mall doesn't it? Although, below narita's second level there are extra lounges below it for passengers to relax where you can find some shops for mostly refreshments or food and a handful shops for souvenirs and bookstores, unlike the domestic wings especially in the US, you'd see name brand stores and good size popular brand restos.

[cartman7110]

I am not too concerned with FOD and his airport city (which is why he has been stating malls and school). Why am i not too bothers by it? Economics.

Businessmen would soon find out that to bid out for airport space to sell goods or services has its advantages (premium/monopoly) but has its disadvantage as well (cost of operating). The same goes with consumers.

I do not see how FOD would have his dream of an airport/megamall be the centerpiece as its not practical or cost effective in commerce or trade. Considering our market is a tingi and mass-market (yes may social climber effect, but when prices keeps pounding on the consumer, they would end up resorting to cheaper means).

Nevertheless, i want to state one thing simple: Let's keep the airport first (let get a modern airport) and by getting it modern, it doesn't mean the add-on (like a friggin mall or school) but rather the basic and advanced equipments like advance emergency services, an armed force (coast guard), modern control tower or two, and redundancy plans.

That is my vision and hope for our nation's Pasay replacement.

[cartman7110]

Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams

Then, I want to ask this: how valuable is having a college degree higher than a B.A. or B.S. in terms of being staff at the airport? I mean, managers must demonstrate how they address various issues that are critical to an airport's overall operation, as well as understanding what is needed to develop an airport in the long-term, not just catering to the wishes of their family members or government officials.

You simply are uncourteous huh.

I have a couple of questions earlier i've directed to you which you did not bother to answer. (let me know if you need the links and i'd gladly show you).

Now you want others to answer your question?

Well, tit for tat my fellow poster.

[fieldsofdreams]

Me? Uncorteous? What are you referring to? I mean, I'm just sharing my future ideas that will come along with an airport, for I envision a lot of development in the process. Plus, providing some shops that sell high-quality goods will definitely help the economy of the local area.

[NTprime]

Guys, let's take the personal issues out of the picture here. Both of you are knowledgeable posters in SSC, I value feedback from both of you even though I am aware that you are at opposing sides of the personal (not political) spectrum.

What I'd like to see here is if there are any unresolved issues (as what cartman was saying), please share with the general SSC public so we can help sort it out. I'm sure that there are a lot of things we can bridge in terms of differences. That goes for the question that cartman posed where others can answer questions being posed in this thread, although of course if a question is directed towards someone specific, it would be appreciated if he/she answers such.

As for this thread, it is regarding what we (from all walks of life) think we would like to see in a new airport, if given a chance to dictate such. Of course, realities like lack of funding, prioritization by the conglomerate/entity that will build the airport, are among the items that will have to be discussed thoroughly by the builders before the final plans are made and implemented. But is is always OK to dream and wish for something better - and that is what we are hopeful about considering the state of the premiere international gateway (which is NAIA).

So I will answer fieldofdreams' question for now - a bachelor's degree is still better than not having one. The reasons are numerous, but it all starts with the fact that a degree is a recognition that the individual concerned has studied and passed the requirements for a particular course of study, and so on. It would be ideal if everybody has a bachelor's degree, but we know the realities that not everyone can afford to be sent by his/her parents/guardians or on his/her own. So while we would prefer people who work to be better educated, it has to be balanced against a few factors.

If jobs are menial, like janitors, etc. there is no requirement for a college degree, but the staff must still be trained. Not only in janitorial duties, but also in customer service. Remember, these people are still part of the overall operations of the airport - so any experience that travelers will have of the lowest level employee will reflect on the airport in general. We cannot have janitors or cleaners who behave like they're the only people working there (e.g. talking loudly, cussing like as if they were at a beerhouse, and so on). People who work at a facility which exposes them to dealing with other cultures should be most sensitive - and going to higher learning institutions helps them instill such values. Of course, just because one has studied or even graduated with a higher degree does not automatically make them better off in all aspects - we have many of them behaving like brats. And we also have people who have less in terms in studies who still behave very well and deserve to be commended, and so on.

But aside from that, education is not the only criteria for hiring topnotch people. That is why in the past you'd see hiring criteria which includes "of good moral character" - aside from not being involved in a crime, and so on. How many people are checked by their potential employers of "good moral character"? Not all, especially those at certain levels where the employer may think it is a waste of money to do so.

The better educated an individual, the greater the chances of being able to integrate, assimilate and interact with the public in general. And the better their training to deal with more complex issues, and even simple things like communicating properly in English. Most students in the Philippines get only a few year's equivalent of formal English training, usually in grade school. And it will show, based on how people write, speak, spell, compose their sentences, and so on.

So much for the discussion on what education is - that is best left to the education thread. But the bottomline is this - the better educated your workforce, the better the chances of running an organization or entity professionally and courteously.

[cartman7110]

I appreciate the middleman/referee you are doing NTprime and i have asked FOD for an offline session which he ignores.

So as to your recommendation to share it in the open, here it goes:

When stuck on a corner, FOD decides not to respond to a followup question which he started and yet ask for more off-topic or sideline topics, such as the most recent:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=#post98080579

FOD lists a lot of incorrect information and does not acknowledge mistakes about it, here's a couple of examples:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=7253
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1181
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...3#post97438103

These inaccuracies shows how immature he is with his thinking but the sad part, unless called upon, he would repeat the inaccurate information.

FOD resorted to asking someones occupation and religion which i suppose are part of his intelligent discussions when he reaches the ends of his arguments:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=7916
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=398

I can go dig deeper and find out about the Clark discussion if it pleases you, but lets begin with these.

What i needed from FOD is acknowledgement that he is inaccurate. He should stop these generalistic (motherhood statements in a couple) which includes attack on our nation's hard working public official, not unless he has explicit examples, and no having your family skip the line does not qualify as corrupt and not courteous acts.

Lets begin with that. Kaya ba nya?

Bottomline, i would like to see some sort of improvement from this poster if he does not like to be call out.

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by NTprime

So much for the discussion on what education is - that is best left to the education thread. But the bottomline is this - the better educated your workforce, the better the chances of running an organization or entity professionally and courteously.

That is something that I've noticed myself because it really shows how competent a person is based on his or her educational background. It's like, in school, professors teach students how to deal with issues: for example, a difficult statistics problem can be solved by opening a program that will simplify the whole statistics story to just a trickle of needed facts. With that amount of information, people can make more informed decisions, statements, and judgments on things that seem to be difficult for most people to understand, and that they can lay out the facts in simple, layman language. Education indeed is a key to success; experience plays a key role in making it possible.

Anyways, back to topic now. Another question: since many of you want to have an airport with lots of land for future growth, what would be an ideal size for you to acquire to build a proper airport?

[NTprime]

Originally Posted by cartman7110

I appreciate the middleman/referee you are doing NTprime and i have asked FOD for an offline session which he ignores.

So as to your recommendation to share it in the open, here it goes:

When stuck on a corner, FOD decides not to respond to a followup question which he started and yet ask for more off-topic or sideline topics, such as the most recent:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...=#post98080579

FOD lists a lot of incorrect information and does not acknowledge mistakes about it, here's a couple of examples:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=7253
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1181
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...3#post97438103

These inaccuracies shows how immature he is with his thinking but the sad part, unless called upon, he would repeat the inaccurate information.

OK, the issue on the three ways of Clark is easily settled. There are only 2 runways, maybe fieldofdreams assumed the third runway is the taxiway. Could be a mistake of being in a hurry, this can be easily rectified. Would help if fieldofdreams makes adjustments to his assumptions here. But also if the question he asked can be answered (provided the facts are set straight).

The second issue about the security of the people who were digging the waterlogged area of NAIA was probably made in reference to airport security as it should be. But this is NAIA, not some high end airport like Changi. On the other hand, it is not an airport in Sudan or Ethiopia, so there is a difference. But more that if these people were allowed there in the first place (and they seem to be working), then they should have legitimate business to do there. It just looks like a little mob fighting over the catch of the day (tilapia or dalag) in the waterhole there. And since they were not wearing uniforms, it's possible they are laborers hired by the contractor or airport authority to fix the place. No need to question the conclusion, what we see is what we think it is. Or perhaps otherwise?

The thing about the rumored airport in Kawit should not have been discussed in the first place. I for one know that it won't happen (and I am 95% sure, so there is still room for error on my part) that this will be built within a 3 year period, primarily because of the reclamation involved. Hopefully at times if the comment like what fieldofdreams made is meant as a joke, then take it at that. He did admit that he needs some catching up to do in history.

Originally Posted by cartman7110

FOD resorted to asking someones occupation and religion which i suppose are part of his intelligent discussions when he reaches the ends of his arguments:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=7916
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=398

I can go dig deeper and find out about the Clark discussion if it pleases you, but lets begin with these.

What i needed from FOD is acknowledgement that he is inaccurate. He should stop these generalistic (motherhood statements in a couple) which includes attack on our nation's hard working public official, not unless he has explicit examples, and no having your family skip the line does not qualify as corrupt and not courteous acts.

Lets begin with that. Kaya ba nya?

Bottomline, i would like to see some sort of improvement from this poster if he does not like to be call out.

Regarding questioning one's background, I think the intention of fieldofdreams was to establish basis on whether cartman knows what he is talking about, primarily based on experience and training. I can gather from cartman's discussions that he knows what he talks about, and does fairly good research. But it will be appreciated if cartman give some idea about his background, although we do know he was there when Chek Lap Kok was being built. So obviously he has experience in working at an airport site, or at least being in the vicinity of Hong Kong when it was being built.

And finally regarding the religion aspect, I think it was out of curiosity that fieldofdreams asked, although not the right way because it was just out of the blue. If there was a statement that would back up the question, then it could have been justified...something like "I hope you don't mind me asking, but does your religious belief have something to do with this and that and so on? The reason I'm asking is that I know people who are this, and they say that so and so on...so I'd like to understand if your beliefs are similar to the paradigms I know based on the people I've met from this religion".

But it would be easier not to ask the religion question at all, especially if it is not a religion thread. Rule of thumb in the US: you don't ask about religion or politics, it is bound to deteriorate into something unpleasant. Unless of course you profess belief in the same God and so on...

So I'm not taking sides here, just want you two to settle these minor issues. If fieldofdreams acknowledges his minor mistakes there, is cartman willing to extend a hand of reconciliation so that we can intelligently discuss the various airport threads? (well, it's been intelligently discussed but the small potshots at others leaves a bad taste in the end).

What do you two have to say about this?

And if I were to impose my conditions, I'd appreciate if fieldofdreams answers first. After all, he is the originator/proponent of this thread and we have him to thank for bringing the discussions here.

My second condition is that after fieldofdreams answers, cartman will do his best to avoid attacking fieldofdreams' opinion or statements. He is entitled to these, after all.

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood." - Steven Covey, Habit no. 5, from The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People

[anonymous_filipino]

Here in SSC, we should all respect each other's opinion. Kumbaga, lahat tayo may sariling opinyon. Ok lang if we attack one's statement due to his error only once, pero kung kada post niya we are attacking it, nawawala ang professionalism natin. Kumbaga, sa mata ng ilang forumers, pinepersonal na natin ang kapwa forumer natin, which is not good. In all the forums I've joined, there are always opposing sides, pero not to the point of always attacking each other's posts.

If you have issues with each other, please discuss it through private messaging, hindi yung nagtitirahan kayo dito sa forums. Nagmumukha kayong aso't pusa tuloy. Remember, it's not only registered forumers who can view all our posts. Lurkers can also read all our posts at mas marami sila.

Please lang, tama na ang pag-atake sa isa't isa. Let's just do some intelligent discussions here. Sorry kung OT pero kailangan kong ilabas ito.

[cartman7110]

@mr. anonymous, my bottomline is simple.

FOD needs to acknowledge wrong information he sends out. I would like him to start with that. Acknowledging erroneous information, which he not once, especially in my discussion with him, he admits. (i told you this in our offline discussions).

There is no intelligent discussion if the facts are incorrect.

[cartman7110]

Originally Posted by NTprime

My second condition is that after fieldofdreams answers, cartman will do his best to avoid attacking fieldofdreams' opinion or statements. He is entitled to these, after all.

I'm fine with this. What i won't keep quiet is when the person speaks of erroneous facts.

[cartman7110]

@NTprime, i would like to comment on the other two items you listed but would adhere and wait for FOD to respond as you recommended.

[philippinearena]

Magbati na kaya kayo

[rockyg]

Originally Posted by philippinearena

Magbati na kaya kayo

di pa ba na finalized yong ceasefire agreement?

[philippinearena]

Originally Posted by rockyg

di pa ba na finalized yong ceasefire agreement?

Masakit na sa mata

[NTprime]

Originally Posted by cartman7110

I'm fine with this. What i won't keep quiet is when the person speaks of erroneous facts.

OK, let us know and we'll point it out ourselves so your "friend" won't take it personally.

Sometimes facts may be misrepresented because of typographical errors. Sometimes because they are joking. But since this is serious discussion, joking doesn't have a place here unless they express it with a smiley or emoticon

If somebody throws you a rock, then it would be hard to throw back a flower unless you are Jesus or Mahatma Gandhi - but let's not get into religious overtones here.

We can all just follow the golden rule or ethic of reciprocity:

(Positive form of Golden Rule): One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.
(Negative form of Golden Rule): One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated.

[rockyg]

correct...

“Practice makes perfect. But nobody is perfect. So, don’t practice.”

[Isopropyl]

I think there's nothing we can do if cartman wants to argue with everything that FOD says. This is a forum after all.

[fieldsofdreams]

Originally Posted by Isopropyl

I think there's nothing we can do if cartman wants to argue with everything that FOD says. This is a forum after all.

Sure. Here's the problem though: I believe that the personal attacks have gone way too far that, I'm sorry if you have already noted this... I have been ignoring cartman for over a month now because I am tired of his personal attacks that remind me of a horrible past: 10 years of being bullied in elementary and high schools. I mean, don't get me started, but a decade's worth of bullying is already a very difficult thing to heal and fix, it requires a long-term intervention. And now, cartman doing similar things to me in a forum? I've been silent on this issue because I've been healing myself from already a long-running problem of bullying, but what I will say is this:

Stop bullying me. Just because I have a thought that is different from yours does not necessarily mean that you can attack me -- even below the belt -- just to make you say your opinion is better than others, and that you must be the only one other users must listen to. Stop harassing me into believing that all your thoughts are right because we all make mistakes. I acknowledge my shortcomings because I am human after all, and I just want to have a healthy intellectual discussion with you, fellow users. Ten years of picking on me, shouting at me, spitting at me, harassing me into following other people is already too much, and now cyberbullying here? Seriously, I've had enough of this, and I can't take all the ridiculous attacks any longer. All it does for me is to become counterproductive, less active, and caving in to fear that other people will attack me here. I've gone through a decade of bullying already, so please, STOP IT before anyone else gets hurt.

[cartman7110]

Well, i predicted as much as how you'd respond (remember your poor student story?).

So am i suppose to buy your new sob story so that you won't even admit you make mistakes? No sir.

I guess its really that hard to admit you make factual errors, eh?

Call me as you please but remember, bullying starts at namecalling, and i've never called you anything beyond a student.

You on the other hand went above and beyond (well check my explaination above as well as those you put on bold).

Sorry bud, i only see crocodile tears.