The Greatest City in the World...

[legolamb]

Originally Posted by cosmictanya

lol. but everything else - back to berlin. not even a little agriculture department dropped off on the autobahn for bremen or anything.

Bremen - apart from being a fine city reborn from the ashes of the second world war as an exemplar of town planning is also a perfect example of Germany's federal approach. They are allowed to do things for themselves and reap the benefits:

http://www.windpoweroffshore.com/201.../#.UMZcNXdjsQs

Public funds secured for €180m upgrade plan

After efforts to find private investors for a €180m North Sea offshore wind terminal on the river Weser estuary failed, the German city-state of Bremen/Bremerhaven has decided to invest in the project itself.
Permitting for the port upgrade plan should be completed in 2014

“In view of current uncertainties in offshore development, no offers were received that could be evaluated. The decision to use public funds to finance the offshore terminal allows progress on the construction planning to continue,” announced the city’s government on 5 Dec.

The news allows tendering for construction and operation of the terminal to begin. Permitting should be completed in 2014.

The new terminal will provide a loading platform for wind turbine components close to existing offshore wind production facilities at the port. A 500m long quay will be built, capable of handling up to 160 wind turbines per year.

Areva, REpower, WeserWind Offshore Construction Georgsmarienhuette and PowerBlades all have production facilities in Bremerhaven. The need for improved facilities to allow these and other offshore wind players to expand their Bremerhaven-based activities has been acknowledged for some time.

“The wind industry in Bremerhaven needs this terminal as a shipment area close to the water and for further growth. Not only will companies already active in Bremerhaven have all the more reason to stay, other companies will be persuaded to set up business here,” commented Bremen economic senator, Melf Grantz.

“The city government stands by its position that offshore wind is a central pillar of Germany's switch to renewable energies. Even if one or other project is delayed, this type of energy generation will take on overriding significance in the coming decades. We are supporting this and want to reap the benefits with many new jobs" said Bremen’s lord mayor Jens Böhrnsen.

[WestYorks2Manchester]

There is a big different between England and Germany. England is a unitary/sovereign country and Germany is a federal country. We have counties and they have states. We have less equality across our country and they have more equality across their country. Simples. Hence why our major cities do not have the transport systems that they rightfully need & deserve and hence why they have arguably the world’s best transport systems.

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by WestYorks2Manchester

There is a big different between England and Germany. England is a unitary/sovereign country and Germany is a federal country. We have counties and they have states. We have less equality across our country and they have more equality across their country. Simples. Hence why our major cities do not have the transport systems that they rightfully need & deserve and hence why they have arguably the world’s best transport systems.

Pretty much in a nutshell.

Of course, we can point out that Salford has Radio 5 Live and that Bradford has the best curry houses but none of that really means sweet FA in the grander scale of things.

[Aaronj09]

Originally Posted by WestYorks2Manchester

There is a big different between England and Germany. England is a unitary/sovereign country and Germany is a federal country. We have counties and they have states. We have less equality across our country and they have more equality across their country. Simples. Hence why our major cities do not have the transport systems that they rightfully need & deserve and hence why they have arguably the world’s best transport systems.

We can change this though.

[Aaronj09]

Originally Posted by cosmictanya

and in the uk? even taking london out of the equation, edinburgh is in the top 10 financial centres within europe. aberdeen is the oil & energy capital, brighton is a significant centre of new media, and manchester airport is one of the most successful regional airports in the eu. next!

I'm mostly talking about England here, not Scotland. Edinburgh is an established financial centre, and has benefited from Scottish devolution, while Aberdeen is clearly very affluent, but again, this is not really the point being made, as I am talking mostly talking about England, and how local areas have little to no power.

A few little steps have been made by moving some BBC departments to Manchester (as Gareth says, they don't really matter), but more needs to be done, local areas need more power to do what they want so they can prosper (or fail if they screw things up, at least local politicians will be accountable). They can't just have things handed to them by the government, in the hopes that it will make everything alright.

I don't think people on here expect Manchester and Birmingham to suddenly grow to London's size so they can easily rival it, in the way German cities rival each other, but they don't want to have to rely on government handouts, that makes their futures sketchy and uncertain. They need to have the freedom to do things themselves, and that way, they can grow into wealthy and prosperous cities and attract their own investment, and hopefully reap London-style benefits. It's a win-win for everybody, provincial cities are not hard-pressed by little room to wriggle, and Londoners will not need to foot a massive bill to help regenerate these godforsaken areas, or have to contend with annoying pseudo-Londoners from the North.

[SE9]

Originally Posted by WestYorks2Manchester

There is a big different between England and Germany. England is a unitary/sovereign country and Germany is a federal country. We have counties and they have states. We have less equality across our country and they have more equality across their country. Simples. Hence why our major cities do not have the transport systems that they rightfully need & deserve and hence why they have arguably the world’s best transport systems.

That's interesting.

German cities don't have the world's best transport systems. South Korea is about the most centralised developed country, but its city transport systems are better than Germany. France too is a centralised country but its intercity transport network is on par with Germany; it wipes the floor in the high speed rail department. Not so 'simples'.

[WestYorks2Manchester]

Originally Posted by SE9

That's interesting.

German cities don't have the world's best transport systems. South Korea is about the most centralised developed country, but its city transport systems are better than Germany. France too is a centralised country but its intercity transport network is on par with Germany; it wipes the floor in the high speed rail department. Not so 'simples'.

I said ‘arguably’! Germany is a very efficient country with great countrywide multi transport. It is the richest country in Europe! I don’t know about South Korea but I doubt that the equality is spread across it as much as it is in Germany. As for France, using a high speed system as an example doesn’t detract from the fact that Germany has amazing metro/suburban networks! Going by what you have said, centralisation doesn’t affect a country's transport infrastructure, so why are we lagging behind in England? So it is ‘simples’ according to me and ‘not so simples’ according to you.

[albionfagan]

Germany is the way it is because of its history, it's always been a divided place with different cities being literally the dominant political authority of that area. The Northern cities in England were effectively Victorian boom towns and so are pretty young overall. Doesn't mean this shouldn't be changed, I think all power should be as local as possible, but I doubt England could function the way Germany does, simply because it's not grown the same way.

[VDB]

I'd say we should split the country up into the current governmental regions, ergo NW, Yorkshire etc and have capital cities/centres for each state. I.e. a federal government.

However I doubt Liverpool would be happy being governed by Manchester (and vice versa)

[Aaronj09]

Yeah, if that happened, people in other places would start complaining about how said city is the new London of that region!

This is why we need power at very local levels. For example, Leeds should have ward councils:

[VDB]

But at least these new capital cities would be far more accessible to people around the country. Leeds is closer to Bradford than London, Ambleside is closer to Manchester than London.

Individual councils for each ward would cost a lot of public money.

[Aaronj09]

I would hope the benefits would outweigh the cost, and function in a similar style to London's boroughs.

[cosmictanya]

Originally Posted by albionfagan

Germany is the way it is because of its history, it's always been a divided place with different cities being literally the dominant political authority of that area. The Northern cities in England were effectively Victorian boom towns and so are pretty young overall. Doesn't mean this shouldn't be changed, I think all power should be as local as possible, but I doubt England could function the way Germany does, simply because it's not grown the same way.

quite right. much easier to federalise the uk, than just england. doesn't mean it shouldn't or can't be...

Originally Posted by VDB

I'd say we should split the country up into the current governmental regions, ergo NW, Yorkshire etc and have capital cities/centres for each state. I.e. a federal government.

However I doubt Liverpool would be happy being governed by Manchester (and vice versa)

...oh the irony. and you accuse london of arrogance and grabbing things for itself! any particular reason why the nw shouldn't be governed from chester, blackpool, carlisle? just cut manchester v liverpool out of the equation entirely. seems fairer to me.

btw -
average monthly salary in frankfurt - euro 4,026 (unemployment rate 6%)
average monthly salary in berlin - euro 2,079 (unemployment rate 13%)

pretty varied. live it, learn it, before using it as a cast iron example of fabulousness to be followed. i've done a lot of work in berlin in the past - it might be cool, but it's in no way equal to west german cities on salary levels. 'poor but sexy' in the words of its own mayor.

[Gareth]

Also, the North West is a Whitehall invention, by all intents and purposes, in a way that, say, Scotland isn't.

We can all argue over what the units should look like and where their centre of government should be but we should all recognise we're on the same page in regards to the principle.

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by Aaronj09

I would hope the benefits would outweigh the cost, and function in a similar style to London's boroughs.

Civil parishes are a good way of keeping accountability to as local a level as considered desirable. The councillors are voluntary (though probably take expenses) so I think the running of them is relatively inexpensive. Certainly, they'd be a good thing for a borough like Leeds; not only because of it's huge population (second largest local authority in England) but also because the Leeds authority is larger than Leeds proper. I'm sure places like Otley and Garsforth would love more control over their own affairs, in the form of a parish council, away from the 'big city'. Leeds proper could also benefit, though I'd probably clump the wards into twos and threes where possible/desirable and call these neighbourhood or community councils.

The power such councils have is variable but they can be to the extent that they act not too disimilar to a district council as found in 'shire' counties. Regardless, they usually have the entitlement to be consulted on planning matters related to their areas and can act on an advisory basis to the main authority.

[Aaronj09]

Civil parishes and town councils exist, but I don't know what kind of autonomy they have. Very limited I'd assume.

That's really the crux of my point - Leeds City Council so large, it pleases very little because it does so many things, and when one authority takes on the responsibility of many things, for such a vast population, quality will decline.

[LNGCats]

Originally Posted by Gareth

Also, the North West is a Whitehall invention, by all intents and purposes, in a way that, say, Scotland isn't.

I'd argue business got there first, but as you say, the principle of devolved powers is something that many on here agree with, but not necessarily in the wider community.

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by Aaronj09

Civil parishes and town councils exist, but I don't know what kind of autonomy they have. Very limited I'd assume.

That's really the crux of my point - Leeds City Council so large, it pleases very little because it does so many things, and when one authority takes on the responsibility of many things, for such a vast population, quality will decline.

I think the power such councils have is down to what's written into their constitutions, usually by agreement of the main local authority. More often than not, the granting of a parish council is purely for the appeasement of the local area and the LA will grant as few powers as it can get away with. I believe that local areas can now petition for a parish council and that if it gets enough support it, allows central government to effectively force the LA into creating it. I don't know any examples of this and reckon in most cases, the bulk of the population won't care enough, appreciate the potential benefits, get won over by the age-old 'more jobs for the boys' argument and/or generally feel local government is a waste of time because of it generally works in this country.

I do feel, though, that they could be ever more important, especually for urban areas. Traditonally, like I've said above, they've been seen as an appeasement for smaller areas with their own identies separate to the LA or the dominant town/city in the LA. Typically, the dominant part is not parished, whether partically or entirely. Thus, Leeds proper is not parished. None of Liverpool LA is parished either. I think that as it looks increasingly likely that unitary authorities will eventually cover the whole country and that they seem to be getting bigger and bigger, neighbourhood councils for our larger towns and cities could really be something beneficial for local accountability and democracy.

[Gareth]

Originally Posted by LNGCats

I'd argue business got there first, but as you say, the principle of devolved powers is something that many on here agree with, but not necessarily in the wider community.

Much of the wider community wouldn't even place that much emphasis on voting. I would argue that the centralised system, complete with the two party dominance are key contributory factors to this though.

[WestYorks2Manchester]

Well the United Kingdom is made up of four countries so to federalise the United Kingdom wouldn’t be the right move. England, being a country in its own right is what’s on the cards in regards to this discussion. Federalising England into the geographic regions seems a viable option. Bear in mind that England doesn’t have its own government! In regards to the other three countries of the United Kingdom, they would continue to function as they are with their own governments. Also Scotland is in the process of deciding regarding its independence. It would make sense for the most powerful city in the region to take charge so I have no problem if there are two powerful cities in the same federation and the most powerful city is the capital city. After all, isn’t this the reason why London is the capital city? Over time it’s become more and more powerful.