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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:56 PM   #4761
Harry1990
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thought this may be off interest as its been discussed reasonably frequently on here but found this on the BBC Sport page

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20679867


Standing at football: 13 clubs back pilot scheme
Comments (74)

Thirteen English league clubs support re-introducing standing at football grounds, according to a fans' group.

On Tuesday, the Football Supporters' Federation is hoping to win the backing of MPs for its plans for a small-scale trial at Premier League clubs.

It believes the pilot scheme would show standing - outlawed after the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 - is now a safe way to watch football.
English league clubs backing trial

Aston Villa
Brentford
Bristol City
Burnley
Cardiff City
Crystal Palace
Derby County
Doncaster Rovers
Hull City
Peterborough United
Plymouth Argyle
Watford
AFC Wimbledon

The Premier League has previously said it opposed the idea.

FSF's Peter Daykin said: "We need to find out if it can work and the only way to do that is to trial it."

All-seater stadiums have been compulsory in the Premier League since 1994, following Lord Justice Taylor's report after the Hillsborough disaster.

But MP Roger Godsiff has tabled an Early Day Motion calling for government approval of a pilot scheme.

The FSF says the idea has the support of Aston Villa and the Scottish Premier League plus 12 Football League clubs, including Peterborough United, Cardiff City, Crystal Palace, Derby County and Hull City.

The proposal is to introduce a design of "rail seat" currently used in some European countries such as Germany. This incorporates a safety barrier and a flip-down seat on every other row. The seats can be locked in an upright position, meaning two rows of supporters can stand in between the barriers, which reduces the danger of a crush.

This type of standing area would also be able to be converted to seating for European competitions, where all-seater stadiums are required.
An example of safe standing

An example of safe standing

A panel of industry experts containing Villa's chief executive Paul Faulkner and West Midlands Police Force Superintendent Steve Graham will present a case for allowing standing at matches at Portcullis House in Westminster on Tuesday.

FSF's safe standing co-ordinator Daykin told BBC Sport: "The debate about standing has reached a point where both sides are entrenched.

"The bottom line is things have changed dramatically since 23 years ago when the Taylor Report was produced.

"Things have moved on massively in terms of technology and know-how around safety in football grounds.

"So, what we are calling for is a number of small-scale trials at Premier League clubs up and down the country.

"Then experts, safety officers and the police can see how it works in a modern context.

"We have had 50 MPs sign up to Roger Godsiff's EDM and correspondence showing support from more MPs unable to sign an EDM for technical reasons."

Professional Footballers' Association chief executive Gordon Taylor said on Monday that clubs might have to introduce netting around pitches to protect players.

Taylor was speaking after Manchester United's Rio Ferdinand was hit by an object as his side celebrated the winning goal against Manchester City on Sunday.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 05:08 PM   #4762
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The current bullshit rules actually mean that some of those clubs on the list could build new stadiums with standing areas, and would be allowed to use them without anyone in a position of power opposing it. However, for other clubs that rule wouldn't apply due to the league they're in, which is obviously total nonsense. What's funny is the simply fact that the modern rail seat system is actually safer than what we have now, which is groups of people standing at all-seater grounds without any barriers to stop them from falling over.

Last edited by RMB2007; December 11th, 2012 at 05:15 PM.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 05:38 PM   #4763
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Just so we're clear, this is what the Germans have:



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Old December 11th, 2012, 06:14 PM   #4764
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They also have the traditional barrier system that we have here in the UK. The German example being promoted over here is the one in your first image, whilst the safe standing roadshow model is based on this hi-rail system:





https://picasaweb.google.com/SafeSta...eimHiRailSeats
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Old December 11th, 2012, 06:33 PM   #4765
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i think this one is better for already built stadiums
http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/wp-con...9/03/kombi.jpg
And of course you are more "free".
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Old December 11th, 2012, 07:09 PM   #4766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by www.sercan.de View Post
i think this one is better for already built stadiums
http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/wp-con...9/03/kombi.jpg
And of course you are more "free".
Which is precisely why that system isn't being promoted over here.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 07:19 PM   #4767
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Which is precisely why that system isn't being promoted over here.
Yep. Police are anti any kind of return to standing anyway. They would dig their heels in even further if it was so easy for fans to move around.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 08:37 PM   #4768
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Found this blog post interesting on the extension of the Victoria Line to Northumberland Park. Especially the rise in passenger numbers getting off at the current station:-

http://ballystudios.blogspot.com/201...-years-of.html

Quote:
................... our new home was based in Foyle Rd, a few mins walk away from Northumberland Park Train Station. Over the next few years of living in this area, it became obvious that many other people living in the area has similar reasons for being based there as we had. Young families, priced out of surrounding areas, relocated for the extra space that their budget could accommodate in Tottenham. Parking spaces were plentiful , a refreshing change. Tottenham marshes was based on our doorstep, and we grew so attached to the area, that when it came time to start a business for ourselves, we didn't hesitate to choose Tottenham as its location.

So when we saw a recent Twitter post by Bruce Castle News, highlighting a question that Joanne McCartney had put to London Mayor Boris Johnson about looking into the possiblity that he “ask TfL to conduct a feasibility study to for extending the Victoria Line to Northumberland Park” it was a subject that both appealed to our emotions, as well as one that, we felt, made sense, economically.

All tube trains currently go to Northumberland Park anyway, as this is where they are cleaned. There is a train-wash, like a car wash for tube trains, that can be clearly seen by people driving along Watermead Way. The tracks are already laid, but at present there is no platform and station facilities. Joanne McCartney shared the same hopes as many local residents, that Northumberland Park Train Station could be transformed into a tube station. Within minutes of us echoing her sentiments, Justin Hinchcliffe ‏of @TottenhamTories chirped in, that it had been “first proposed by us on 2001”. A quick internet search shows that local Labour MP, David Lammy felt that "the important thing is to deliver an extension on the Victoria Line sometime soon - people desperately need it in what is a deprived part of London."

So both the Tories and the Labour party, at a local level, seem to be in favour of it. Justin Hinchcliffe ‏of @TottenhamTories tweeted “we should make a united, cross-party push for it”, a sentiment we agreed with. Ken Livingstone, in 2003, was vocal for his support too, and Boris Johnson has backed a regeneration plan that promises ‘up to 10,000 new high quality homes and over 5,000 new jobs’ for Tottenham by 2025, as well as publicly backing Tottenham Hotspurs plans to build a new 56,000 all seater stadium next to their current stadium.

We've spoken to many people in the area that are equally vocal with their support. We, personally, feel that the plan for a Northumberland Park tube station would be of great benefit to the community. Support seems be be forthcoming from all areas for the plan., both socially and politically. But as of yet, the official line from TFL is “London Underground has already evaluated the business case to extend the Victoria line to Northumberland Park. The outcome (weighing up the benefits, demand and costs) indicated that the investment would not represent value for money and could not be justified when compared alongside other projects which would deliver greater benefits to London”.

At present, Northumberland Park station is a train station, National Rail, on the Stansted Express route. Despite it only having 1 or 2 trains per hour, depending on the time of day, passenger numbers have grown from 73,310 in 2004–05, to 125,000 in 2006/07, to 162,000 in 2008/2009, and, in 2009/2010, the last year we have figures for, 176,000 used the station, an all-time high. Popularity of the station has grown 150% in just 6 years, despite there being no significant change in the service. That's not to say it is 150% of what it was, it has GROWN that amount. It is 250% what it was. So that seems to contradict the official line that development “could not be justified”.

Northuberland Park is also a 5 mins stroll away from Tottenham Hotspurs Football ground, much nearer than the current 20 minute walk that it is from Seven Sisters station. Tottenham Hotspurs are planning on opening a new 56,00 stadium in less than 2 years. Each year, on average, there are 26 home games. (19 in the league, on average 7 in the Europa League, League Cup, FA Cup, depending of their performance in these competitions and if they are drawn at home or not. Catch them on a good year, and you'll see up to 32 games) Using Arsenal FC’s transport statistics (which I think is fair, considering the 2 teams are based only 1 stop apart at present, from Finsbury Park to Seven Sisters), “70% of football fans reply on other transportation means, other than private cars”. So that is up to 39,000 fans who could use the train station every game. We're business owners, so we are routinely cautious when it comes to projecting numbers, so lets say that there are only 25,000 people who would use public transport instead (which would represent only 45% of fans, as opposed to 70%), that would still equate to 650,000 fans per year who could potentially use the station from Tottenham games alone.

Add to that the 176,000 that were already using it, as a train station that has an hourly/half hourly service, and you already have 800,000 annual passengers. South Kenton only has 960,000 annual passengers. North Ealing 940,000, Grange Hill, Chigwell, Chesham and Theydon Bois have between 460,000 and 740,000 a year. So even discounting the fact that many people don't currently use it now because of the irregular service, and discounting the fact that usage for the station has been growing dramatically as it is, you still have a number nearing a million. Surely that is demand enough?


In fact, there are already massive amounts of work in place to regenerate the Tottenham Hale gyratory. Tfl themselves have said, “The current one-way system has high volumes of traffic.” http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...mes/13315.aspx But currently, the only way that fans can get from the Tottenham ground to the tube station, and that local residents of Northumberland park can get to the tube also, is by putting this current system under even more pressure. You only have to spend a few days getting off of the tube at Seven Sisters and see the amount of people using the 341 and 476 bus routes, which take you to Northumberland Park, to see how many people need to travel to the area that already use the tube. More transport options, and a new tube station, would mean less buses on the road.

This is not even taking into account that the tracks are already in place!! The trains are already going there every day as it is. All you would need is a platform or two,and a station concourse. No tunnels, no tracks need to be laid. Of course, work would need to be done to re-route certain parts of the tracks, but compared to other more flagship projects that have recently taken place, such as the east London line, Crossrail and the Jubillee Line extension, the work would be nominal.

If budget is a concern, then there is the option to run it as a shuttle service from Seven Sisters, in the same way that the Northern Line, Mill Hill East branch is currently run. Tube passengers could interchange at Seven Sisters, from the platform, that currently serves Walthamstow Central, and change to the “Nothumberland Park Platform”, which is based approximately 100 feet away, on the same level. The same train could just keep going back and forth along the same line, and even taking into account the driver walking from one of of the train to the other when changing direction, it could still be more than possible to run a “4 train an hour service” in Non-peak times, and a direct service in peak times.

There is already increasing demand at Tottenham hale tube station, and it was named in a recent report into train/tube stations that are most susceptible to reaching capacity soon. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/ju...worst-20-years) Many people currently use the station as an interchange between the Victoria line and Stansted Express. Northumberland Park is already on the Stansted Express. Open it as a tube station, and you have another interchange that can be used by some of the 4 million annual commuters who use the National Rail/Stansted Express station at Tottenham Hale. Assuming that 2 million passengers are using Tottenham Hale in each direction, (half go one way, half go the other way) if 5% of the passengers who interchange at Tottenham Hale station for northbound travel were to change at Northumberland Park instead, that's another 100,000 passengers a year who could benefit directly from a Northumberland Park tube station. Even if it was only used at peak hours, it would take the burden off of Tottenham Hale alone, and would be preferable for many people as it would be a step free interchange, with the tube and train station at Northumberland park being at the same level. By providing secure cycle parking facilities, people from areas not served by the tube could be within cycling distance of it.

TFL assessment of the viability of the station is also missing a very obvious point. That the main reason there is no demand at present is because there is no tube station there! Therefore, there is less of culture of local residents using the tube. Before the o2 arena was built in North Grenwich, there was not much of a demand for concerts there, only because there was no venue! By building the infrastructure, the supply will create a demand for the product., as “Say's law” dictates, which was advocated by Economist John Maynard Keynes amongst others. And this is only counting people who would directly use the station for the local area and as a train interchange, and not counting the possibility of it being used as a bus interchange for surrounding areas. Within a couple of miles of the prospective site are areas that are currently not served by the Tube, such as Chingford, Edmonton, Enfield, Ponders End, Brimsdown and many others. It could be utilised as a vital interconnection between bus routes and tube stations, in the same way that Edgware, Stanmore and Walthamstow stations currently are.

The arguments for Northumberland park Tube station are strong. Even from a safety point of view, currently the whole of the Victoria line is underground, with it being the only tube line that has no open air sections. Heaven forbid, if there was an incidents even approaching the magnitude of the 7/7 attacks, it would act as a vital way for emergency services to access the Victoria Line, or for people to be evacuated quickly from. Property within the area is much cheaper, and there is also sufficient land in the area, in the form of industrial estates that have been for sale, and unsold, for years, that could be used for new housing, and a tube station would provide a transport hub for any such developments. TFL and the Mayor of London are vocally backing the Nine Elm development, which is being proposed in the same way, in that a new area of london could be created by a new tube station. Northumberland park could have a similar effect, at a fraction of the cost.

Even if it is just run as a shuttle service during off peak hours, to save money, and run as a direct service into central London or the peak hours of 7:30am – 9:30am and 4:30pm – 6:30pm, we hope that the scheme is given the opportunity it deserves. As a direct result of moving into the area, we founded a local business, which has resulted in 5 residents of Tottenham being employed. A small effect? Maybe. But imagine that multiplied by many more times. Better transport links would mean more people moving into the area, and the knock on effect can only be positive for local business’s. It could mean better bus and train interconnections, and an area of London synonymous with poverty can be given hope. It would also give the message that the government feels that Tottenham is an area worthy of investment. How do the government think that people feel when they hear Tfl say the area is not worthy of investment and that “other projects (would) would deliver greater benefits to London”. If the London Riots of last year showed us anything, it is that we should not be concentrating our efforts on the areas of London that would solely generate more income, rather that we should be investing in areas such as this. MP's are in cross party support. Residents would benefit, as would local business’s would.


On 7th August, 2011, The UK was shocked by the riots in Tottenham, and the image of Allied carpets, burning well into the night, was a catalyst that created more rioting over the next week. I remember watching it myself. I had, a couple of months earlier, moved onto the property ladder, and I was having a house party that night to celebrate purchasing my first home. Party guests who understood my affiliation with Tottenham brought the matter to my attention, and about 20-30 of us, with glasses of wine and beer in hand, watched the footage of the riots on TV, with great sadness, until about 3am. When everyone had left, I stayed up until 8am watching the footage. I went into work the next day, at 11am, witnessing, first hand, the widespread looting that was happening the next morning at the Tottenham Hale retail park. The image of Allied carpets ablaze, that night, was the enduring image, for me, of the London riots. When we were soundproofing the studios on it's first day, in 2005, I bought a job lot of carpet that was frayed at the edges, for 50% off, from that very store. It as symbolic for me, that on the night I was celebrating stepping onto the property ladder, the very building that put me on the way, was burning to the ground.

The empty shell of this building lies 850 from Northumberland Park Train station. What a fine legacy it would be if Northumberland park were to have it's own Tube station. How are people meant to feel proud about their own community when transport for London openly state that it is not worthy of investment, while other, more financially affluent areas, are given mass funding? The government is not meant to be investing in areas that are already financially strong money. That is what the private sector is for. By investing now, it will help to revitalize an area, and hopefully prevent some of the scenes we saw last year. This area helped me to create financial stability for myself. I am sure it can do the same for others.

We sincerely hope that TFL reconsider their stance, and we hope that the mayor for London, and the Government, both at a local and national level, put their support behind this worthy scheme. It has our full support.
Boris was asked the question last year. His reply:-

http://mqt.london.gov.uk/mqt/public/...on.do?id=36114

Quote:
Mayor answers to London

Victoria Line Extension to Northumberland Park
Question number 1413/2011
Meeting date 18/05/2011

Question by Joanne McCartney

Will you please ask TfL to conduct a feasibility study to for extending the Victoria Line to Northumberland Park? This extension would bring enormous regeneration benefits to the wider N17 area and would be widely welcomed by local residents.

Answer by Boris Johnson (1st Term)

London Underground has already evaluated the business case to extend the Victoria line to Northumberland Park. The outcome (weighing up the benefits, demand and costs) indicated that the investment would not represent value for money and could not be justified when compared alongside other projects which would deliver greater benefits to London.
I am aware you have had recent correspondence with Peter Hendy on this subject.

Last edited by LAYiddo; December 11th, 2012 at 08:52 PM.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 10:10 PM   #4769
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This article puts a bit more flesh on the bone of what the Tottenham regeneration committee have said:

http://www.london.gov.uk/media/press...tion-tottenham

The most interesting bit is the bit about the £40m. Its no secret that this amount would be forthcoming, it was announced a few months back, but its the first time I think they've set out the actual breakdown:

£0.6m to develop a regeneration and investment strategy that sets out opportunities and delivery options for the Tottenham area in the short and medium terms.
£27 million in the North Tottenham/Northumberland Park area to support transport infrastructure and public realm improvements to help unlock proposals for the major stadium-led regeneration scheme.
£2.9 million into a package of works to improve the High Road, bringing disused buildings back into use, paving the way for growth in terms of housing, employment and community.
£3.7 million to support an Opportunity Investment Fund that will be managed to purchase key sites and bring forward development and commercial opportunity on the High Road and at Tottenham Hale.
£3.6 million for an Employment and Skills programme to provide support for hard to reach young people and problem families in terms of employability, access to jobs and skills training.
£3 million to transform 639 High Road into an enterprise centre for use by the community.


The vast majority is for "transport infrastructure and public realm improvements" on Northumberland Park.

Tube extension?
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Old December 12th, 2012, 12:04 AM   #4770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kebab Man View Post
This article puts a bit more flesh on the bone of what the Tottenham regeneration committee have said:

http://www.london.gov.uk/media/press...tion-tottenham

The most interesting bit is the bit about the £40m. Its no secret that this amount would be forthcoming, it was announced a few months back, but its the first time I think they've set out the actual breakdown:

£0.6m to develop a regeneration and investment strategy that sets out opportunities and delivery options for the Tottenham area in the short and medium terms.
£27 million in the North Tottenham/Northumberland Park area to support transport infrastructure and public realm improvements to help unlock proposals for the major stadium-led regeneration scheme.
£2.9 million into a package of works to improve the High Road, bringing disused buildings back into use, paving the way for growth in terms of housing, employment and community.
£3.7 million to support an Opportunity Investment Fund that will be managed to purchase key sites and bring forward development and commercial opportunity on the High Road and at Tottenham Hale.
£3.6 million for an Employment and Skills programme to provide support for hard to reach young people and problem families in terms of employability, access to jobs and skills training.
£3 million to transform 639 High Road into an enterprise centre for use by the community.


The vast majority is for "transport infrastructure and public realm improvements" on Northumberland Park.

Tube extension?
Interesting..... £27m is quite a chunk of cash for infrastructure in an area where it's difficult to do anything to the roads (i.e. we're not building bridges or under/overpasses there). You'd think it would go towards public transport... Please God say it's true. Would be absolutely massive for the area, and for Spurs.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 03:35 PM   #4771
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The naming rights on the roof of that is going to be a bitch to re-paint when they change sponsors.. :S
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Old December 12th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #4772
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I'd imagine any naming rights for Tottenham's new stadium would be a very long-term deal, whilst the Seattle Seahawks didn't have much of an issue repainting the roof on their stadium when the naming rights changed.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 05:03 PM   #4773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMB2007 View Post
I'd imagine any naming rights for Tottenham's new stadium would be a very long-term deal, whilst the Seattle Seahawks didn't have much of an issue repainting the roof on their stadium when the naming rights changed.
Pah! 1 ladder, 2 blokes, 3 cans of dulux one-coat, job jobbed.

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Old December 12th, 2012, 06:10 PM   #4774
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Originally Posted by RMB2007 View Post
I'd imagine any naming rights for Tottenham's new stadium would be a very long-term deal, whilst the Seattle Seahawks didn't have much of an issue repainting the roof on their stadium when the naming rights changed.
Yep.

Once every 10-15 years is fine. Better than the Forth Rail Bridge!
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Old December 12th, 2012, 06:37 PM   #4775
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Think Brentford have done it once or twice over the years.



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Old December 12th, 2012, 09:17 PM   #4776
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Think Brentford have done it once or twice over the years.



Yep. Directly on the Heathrow approach flight path.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #4777
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Ledley King states the obvious:

Quote:
Ledley King believes Tottenham will have a better chance of attracting elite players to the club if they make progress with their plans to build a new stadium.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/f...g-8412843.html
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Old December 13th, 2012, 06:13 PM   #4778
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Originally Posted by Harry1990 View Post
Oh god just saw that i blame mountain and mountains of Uni essay deadline and the fact it usual for the scottish teams in the Uefa cup, shame though would love to see us play at celtic park, does anyone know if we have played a european tie at Celtic Park or even Ibrox ?
Celtic and Tottenham have never met in European competition.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 12:48 AM   #4779
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I too hope our two clubs meet and in the final as it is at the AA
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Old December 14th, 2012, 12:50 AM   #4780
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Originally Posted by AjaxDeSuperYids View Post
I too hope our two clubs meet and in the final as it is at the AA
Would be brilliant!!
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