daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > World Forums > Architecture > European Classic Architecture and Landscapes

European Classic Architecture and Landscapes All related to historical buildings and landscapes of the old world.



Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 9th, 2012, 06:02 PM   #1101
Ingwaeone
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Berlin
Posts: 717
Likes (Received): 955

I don't think so. Back then, an awareness of the unique value of old towns already existed.
Ingwaeone no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old December 9th, 2012, 07:13 PM   #1102
pumpikatze
Pichichi de la liga
 
pumpikatze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vindobona
Posts: 2,186
Likes (Received): 621

I am not sure if I can totally agree. Maybe thats true for smaller towns, but in big cities even some of the remaining historical buildings were replaced by "modern" ones after WWII, even in the 60ies and 70ies. Also cities had to change due to increasing traffic, more cars, etc.
It is unrealistic to think cities would look the same as at the end of the 19th century if there wouldnt have been WWII.
And even if some streets or squares would have survived totally undamaged (and I am sure there are some) they would look different from the photographs shown here. Shops look different, cars everywhere, pedestrian sidewalks nowadays are often narrow, streets wider, traffic lights, traffic signs and many other things that create an impression of a street/square/city.

Ok, but enough for that - more pictures, please....
__________________
Vienna, Vienna
You´re not a legend you´re living
Show your every face in endless grace
Vienna, Vienna
pumpikatze no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2012, 07:34 PM   #1103
Ingwaeone
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Berlin
Posts: 717
Likes (Received): 955

You seem to forget that with the old regime there was almost a complete exchange of the elites and ideology, whose architectural expression modernism is.
Ingwaeone no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2012, 07:44 PM   #1104
pumpikatze
Pichichi de la liga
 
pumpikatze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vindobona
Posts: 2,186
Likes (Received): 621

What exactly is the point of that statement?
I just doubt cities would have survived totally untouched until today even without WWII.
In fact, changes even started before WWII, doesnt matter in which country or political power in that country.
__________________
Vienna, Vienna
You´re not a legend you´re living
Show your every face in endless grace
Vienna, Vienna
pumpikatze no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2012, 07:53 PM   #1105
Ingwaeone
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Berlin
Posts: 717
Likes (Received): 955

You think like they would have erased the old town of Nuremberg? The society was aware that their architectural heritage had to be protected. Changes regarded the preservation of older parts and the cities' extension, not the old towns itself.
Ingwaeone no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2012, 07:57 PM   #1106
pumpikatze
Pichichi de la liga
 
pumpikatze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vindobona
Posts: 2,186
Likes (Received): 621

Yes, I generally agree with you.
Anyway I think even some meaningful buildings would have been replaced by modern ones, even without WWII. You can find examples even on some photographs from the early 1930s.
The only thing I want to point out is that (mainly big) cities changed a lot even from the end of the 19th century until WWII started.
__________________
Vienna, Vienna
You´re not a legend you´re living
Show your every face in endless grace
Vienna, Vienna
pumpikatze no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2012, 08:16 PM   #1107
Ingwaeone
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Berlin
Posts: 717
Likes (Received): 955

You are right, it's a sad secret how many unique architectural landscapes in Germany were destroyed through the historicist mania in the 19th century.
Ingwaeone no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2012, 08:18 PM   #1108
pumpikatze
Pichichi de la liga
 
pumpikatze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vindobona
Posts: 2,186
Likes (Received): 621

Unfortunately true. About historicist mania we suffer the same here.

BUT we can still enjoy the beautiful photos here. Thats why I am waiting for more to come
__________________
Vienna, Vienna
You´re not a legend you´re living
Show your every face in endless grace
Vienna, Vienna
pumpikatze no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2012, 09:44 PM   #1109
erbse
Alpha Bull
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mecklenburg. The Last Paradise.
Posts: 27,735
Likes (Received): 22937

Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpikatze View Post
Beautiful thread here - such a pity so many cities and buildings have changed since then.
I am just not totally happy with this threads title. Isnt there - at least valid for many cities in Germany - a big difference between the time of "the end of 19th century" and the time "before WWII"? Modernism and zeitgeist already started to change the cities faces in the 1920s and 30s. I think even without WWII many of the posted sites would look totally different nowadays.
On the other hand I totally agree - WWII almost totally erased many of the wonderful German cities that would have survived keeping their original faces if they wouldnt have been bombed.
This thread is exactly trying to highlight the transitions that started from the times the first photographs of our cities were around - until WW2.
__________________
Mecklenburg, ja! Supergeil.

Highcliff liked this post
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 9th, 2012, 09:47 PM   #1110
pumpikatze
Pichichi de la liga
 
pumpikatze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vindobona
Posts: 2,186
Likes (Received): 621

Ah, ok, I am taking back everything I have said.
I thought it would just be about "If WWII would never have happend then everything still would look like at the end of the 19th century".

Wonderful thread anyway.
__________________
Vienna, Vienna
You´re not a legend you´re living
Show your every face in endless grace
Vienna, Vienna
pumpikatze no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2012, 12:14 AM   #1111
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 552
Likes (Received): 318

interesting chat between Pumpikatze and Ingwaeone. I dont' think there's disagreement; in fact WWII was not the only culprit for erasing many important and necessary structures but urban sprawl preceeded the bombs. No question that WWII did 90%+ of the wreckage, but if we had in place today some of the buildings that were already gone by 1940, we'd have a pretty good collection. For example, most of the old city walls, gates, and towers of every major city had been removed well before the 20th century. Circular roads radiating out from a center core had been replaced by wider, straighter streets to accomodate cars, street cars, people, and bigger structures.
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2012, 08:30 AM   #1112
pumpikatze
Pichichi de la liga
 
pumpikatze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Vindobona
Posts: 2,186
Likes (Received): 621


Totally true.
__________________
Vienna, Vienna
You´re not a legend you´re living
Show your every face in endless grace
Vienna, Vienna
pumpikatze no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 10th, 2012, 10:14 PM   #1113
Klassiker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 82
Likes (Received): 31

Germanies changing face in 50-ties and 60-ties

WW2 did a lot of harm to 30 wonderfull German cities which where by all means each masterpieces of human construction and very thorough harmoneous in its total composition.
What it actually did is destroying the centers and in some cities also the ring of the early 20th century "suburbs" around the center.

Of course modernization started in the 20-ties and 30-ties and for example Tauentzienstrasse or Kurfürstendamm looked already quite different in 1940 compared to the pictures around 1910.
In Berlin some modern multistory towers appeared in the 9(neo) classical and baroque built up areas but their number was limited. Nazi buildings (a mix of modernism and classical styles) were built over everywhere; as where modern and lighter coloured housing blocks like those in Siemansstadt, deprived of any stuck.
Gründerzeit buildings already lost a part of their prodigious appearance: sculptures and Stuck were dissappearing, fassades of new blocks already more straight with less balconies, erkers aso.

The bombing destroyed between 33% and 66% of all buildings in some 50 largest cities in greater Germany. Deeply missed now are the top gems: Würzburg, Potsdam but also veritable gems as Berlin, Breslau, Dresden, Frankfurt, Freiburg, Karlsruhe, Kassel, Mannheim, Magdeburg, Mainz, Münster and Stettin.

Only some cities however did escape the horendous bombings showing its start of destruction on the large aerial photographs by ODOAKER and INGWAEONE.
Regensburg, Konstanz, Görlitz, Halle, Wiesbaden, Heidelberg, Erfurt, Bielefeld but also for the larger part Lübeck, Augsburg and even Leipzig and Chemnitz did escape the carnage as did the 5 largest Austrian cities. Danzig nowadays has been rebuilt to a large extend by the Poles.

After the war the Germans destroyed what was left: Berlin Center, Berlin Neukölln (Rollberge), Wedding (Vinetaplatz), Magdeburg, Kassel, Dresden, Wuppertal all experienced heavy amputations. After the Wende in 1989 still standing Chemnitz the Shovel demolished many survivors of 2 epochs....and in Berlin even after 2000 the last classical Fassades of the (once great) Kerkau Palast and Trarbach houses were demolished in the Rosinenstrasse straight behind the Unter den Linden. They were the last remaining Belle Epoque houses in the center, where the communists already razed down the last dozens of still standing historical buildings and another dozen churches.......(to be never reconstructed again).
Almost 60% of all surviving Gründerzeit building lost their outer decorations (especially in the largest cities: Berlin, München, Köln) and ass naked and ugly skeletons had to linger on......

So in a way the Germans humiliated themselves (punished themselves) and did not allow for reconstruction of a "glorious past", as did the Poles in Warschau.
Now the German "Guilt" has somewhat dissappeared they allowed some reconstructions: 1 square in Dresden (but certainly no 100% reko) and 1 palace in Potsdam.
Very hesitatingly they proceed with planning 1 Reko (but not 100%) of the palace in Berlin Center and some (!!) other buildings in Potsdam.

In Dresden, Berlin and other destructed cities there still is no planning to replace the spaces and modern cheap crap from after the war with some decent and high quality buildings in a harmoneous way ass was the case in the period before WW2. This however is URGENTLY needed and can easily be done. For Dresden there is a maquette with some first signs of healing the gigantic wounds from destruction by the War and the 60 years of destruction (self humilating) of after the war. In Berlin a fine maquette can be admired showing the colourful center of around 1880: a wonderful sight which reminds me of the even colourful Italian cities, but more German Baroque!!!

Hopefully the Germans will enter an era of more reconstruction of their lost gem cities: Potsdam, Würzburg, Berlin, Dresden and Magdeburg.
There are however no signs that they are planning to do that.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post

Last edited by Klassiker; December 11th, 2012 at 07:24 PM.
Klassiker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2012, 12:59 AM   #1114
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 552
Likes (Received): 318



Good insights and information. However, a few fact-checked corrections:

1) most major cities on the bombing target list lost 70-90%+ of their historic, city centers.
2) the list of cities bombed and mostly destroyed in Germany is well over 100.
3) Lubeck did not escape; it was over 80% destroyed.
4) Leipzig did not escape either; it's center was nearly completely destroyed.

Last edited by keepthepast; December 11th, 2012 at 01:06 AM.
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2012, 08:55 AM   #1115
erbse
Alpha Bull
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Mecklenburg. The Last Paradise.
Posts: 27,735
Likes (Received): 22937

Ja, that's right.


Though the 80% of Lübeck don't refer to its historical center, but the overall city area.
Luckily, the old town was far less destroyed. By 20% at most I think.
__________________
Mecklenburg, ja! Supergeil.

Highcliff liked this post
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2012, 05:53 PM   #1116
keepthepast
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 552
Likes (Received): 318

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Ja, that's right.


Though the 80% of Lübeck don't refer to its historical center, but the overall city area.
Luckily, the old town was far less destroyed. By 20% at most I think.
Thanks. Yes, I believe that stats are right. The losses of non-historic city centers, however, were almost as tragic as the several hundred year old centers. For example in Dresden, the Neustadt, JohannStadt, Striesen neighborhoods and more were more recent, often Wilhelmine era, and not necessarily "historic" architectural collections but were very, very beautifully designed and built. These losses were replaced with often the most horrific communist style structures.
keepthepast no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2012, 07:40 PM   #1117
Klassiker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 82
Likes (Received): 31

Dresden, Lübeck and non-center areas of large cities

Keepthepast wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by keepthepast View Post
Thanks. Yes, I believe that stats are right. The losses of non-historic city centers, however, were almost as tragic as the several hundred year old centers. For example in Dresden, the Neustadt, JohannStadt, Striesen neighborhoods and more were more recent, often Wilhelmine era, and not necessarily "historic" architectural collections but were very, very beautifully designed and built. These losses were replaced with often the most horrific communist style structures.
Yes: fully agreed!!! The tragic loss of the Johannstadt with its splendid Sachsen Platz will never be made good I fear. Some churches survived the bombing but were merciless razed down by the communists in the fifties or even the sixties. Yes in the Dresden "suburbs"the Gründerzeit house where very beautifully designed, with large green inner yards. In contrary to Berlin where beautiful blocks were raised in Charlottenburg and Wilmersdorf, but the inner court yards where all filled in with 2nd rate houses forming 1 inner court without gardens. In Berlin the green was along the grand boulevards (2 to 4 lines of trees) or the many squares which all had trees and brushes to enjoy sitting in the sun if no Church was built on that square.
From the air also the building blocks in Berlin were quite different from Dresden and these also differed from those in Leipzig, Chemnitz, Magdeburg, Stettin, Posen and Breslau.

If looking at Freiburg, Augsburg, Ulm aso these cities also had a characteristic pattern of houses (many single detached). Still others had blocks of houses along the main roads and single detached houses behind the main roads.

About Lübeck: no no no!!! The historic center suffered a loss of 20% of its built up area. The heavily damaged Churches and some houses were rebuilt. The rest of the city outside the center suffered NO DAMAGE!!! So Lübeck as first city targets out of 100 (yes thats right, but 30 I rank as very precious) afterwards was quite lucky compared to the 1945 targets which were utterly destroyed in 1 big raid: Potsdam, Würzburg, Pforzheim, Dresden, Magdeburg and the 2nd worst hit target of Germany after Hamburg (1st): Swinemünde. 3rd was Dresden, 4th Berlin and 5th Magdeburg if you look at the KIA by bombing (not looking at the quantity of rubble or destroyed square kilometers). Pforzheim, Kassel, Bruchsal, Darmstadt, Halberstadt and Plauen were also "total losses" with high casualties. If looking to area combat Königsberg, Danzig, Breslau and Berlin were the 4 most hit, with Königsberg losing over 100 K of KIA civilians and the highest casualty rate of any German city in WW2. This was because the Soviets took some revenge after 3 years of German occupation of large parts of the Soviet Union. In Berlin (22K) and Breslau (40K) the killing was much lower but at least 10.000 German wives committed suicide after/before rape.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post

Last edited by Klassiker; December 11th, 2012 at 08:00 PM.
Klassiker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2012, 08:22 PM   #1118
ja.centy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Kraków/Dublin
Posts: 346
Likes (Received): 57

Sorry to interrupt this interesting discussion on the bombing of German cities, however, let me repeat the aforementioned sentence: 'They had sown the wind, now they would reap the whirlwind.'

Germany's Luftwaffe 'deeds':

- Wieluń: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Wielu%C5%84

- Warsaw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing...n_World_War_II

- Rotterdam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_Blitz

- London & other UK cities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz

...and before the 2nd World War: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica
ja.centy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2012, 09:58 PM   #1119
Klassiker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 82
Likes (Received): 31

Germanies disappeared gems......

Ja.centy. You are right when pointing towards the cities bombed by the Germans. Don't however forget the 30 German cities I listed where absolute masterpieces in total composition and architectural (invested) value. Don't forget the huge losses in architectural heritage caused by Western Allied airfleets to French, Belgian, Dutch and Italian cities. Rotterdam was after the German bombing of the centre MORE heavily bombed by the Western Allied airforces in 43 and 44 (with more casualties than that of the German bombing in may 1940). Merksem in Antwerpen was another sad example. Nijmegen center another aso.
More..... the German bombings dwindled compared to the Allied bombings on Germany starting in the summer of 1943. All German bombs on Great Britain can be compared to all Allied bombs falling on 1 German city (Berlin). And 90% of all bombs missed..... still the enormous havoc in cities like Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden, Mannheim or Magdeburg was unparalleled in Europe. Only Warsaw saw similar destruction levels.

Than something can be said on the reconstruction efforts: Hannover looked like a moon landscape in 1945, nowadays only the city center shows huge scars. The same can be said about Potsdam, Berlin, München Freiburg, Nürnberg, Stuttgart, Augsburg, Mainz, Aachen, Braunschweig Münster and Würzburg. They somewhat recovered from the huge blows. All other cities however removed the rubble and did NOT rebuilt houses in the historical groundplans nor outer appearance (outer lines). Their appearance is not so attractive anymore (rather ugly and depressing in many places): Pforzheim, Heilbronn, Mannheim, Karlsruhe, Magdeburg, Kassel, Dortmund, Dresden (suburbs), Hamburg (suburbs) (Hammerbrook etc);Kiel, Königsberg, Stettin (suburbs), Breslau (suburbs), Plauen are very degraded compared to the splendid situation of before the war.
__________________

Highcliff liked this post
Klassiker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 11th, 2012, 10:10 PM   #1120
ja.centy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Kraków/Dublin
Posts: 346
Likes (Received): 57

Don't know with other German cities, but I agree re Pforzheim (I studied for a year there - EU Socrates program ).

Why do you consider Wrocław/Breslau and Szczecin/Stettin as German cities? Do we operate in pre-WW2 terms here?
ja.centy no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
alemania, classic architecture, classic europe, galerie, gdańsk, heritage, historical architecture

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.5 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu