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Old December 20th, 2012, 09:56 PM   #4761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X666 View Post
50 shades of Metrolink?
You walked right into that one my freind.

Fifty Shades of Yellow
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 12:33 PM   #4762
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Originally Posted by revihr View Post
Now if we are dreaming....

Metrolink 2025
1 Bury - Victoria - 2CC - Cornbrook - Sale - Altrincham
2 Bury - Victoria - Piccadilly - Ashton
3 Piccadilly - Cornbrook - Altrincham
3C as 3 to Altrincham - Chester (TT)
3K as 3 to Altrincham - Kunusford (TT)
3N New Mills -Piccadilly then as 3 (TT)
3R Rose Hill - Piccadilly then as 3 (TT)
4 Stalybridge - Ashton - Piccadilly - Cornbrook - Eccles - Leigh extending to St Helens as 4S or Wigan as 4W
5 Piccadilly - Cornbrook - Media City extending from New Mills as 5N or Rose Hill as 5R (TT)
6 Littleborough - Rochdale - Shaw - Victoria - Market Street - Cornbrook - Chorlton - Airport
7 Shaw - Victoria - 2CC - Cornbrook - Chorlton - Didsbury - Stockport
8 Victoria - 2CC - Cornbrook - Trafford Centre - Port Salford
9 Hazel Grove - Stockport - Levenshulme - Manchester - Swinton - Farnworth - Bolton - Dunscar. In Manchester this would operate as 9P via Portland Street & st Peter's Square or 9S via Stevenson Square & Shude Hill. Replaces buses 192 & 8
51 Airport - Stockport - Ashton - Oldham - Shaw - Rochdale
61 Rochdale - Heywood - Bury - Bolton extending to Leigh as 61L or Wigan & St Helens as 61S
71 Airport - Altrincham - Trafford Centre - Leigh extending to St Helens as 71S or Wigan as 71W

A real network covering every borough
Oddly enough this is probably a pretty accurate list of all the plans in the pipeline isnt it?
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 04:33 PM   #4763
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Oddly enough this is probably a pretty accurate list of all the plans in the pipeline isnt it?
Depends what you mean by "in the pipeline", personally I think that there are a few on that list that have a fair way to go before they get to the start of the pipeline

Now, if TfGM had a 20 year plan for "Future Metrolink".............
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 06:07 PM   #4764
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I'm coming round to the idea that the future Metrolink should not be Metrolink at all. Not that I think it's a bad system for doing what it does, but I don't think the technology is right for the challenging transport corridors it is yet to serve.

My preference would be a combination of high quality bus lanes to pool less frequent services from the urban periphery into frequent, rapid, segregated services in the inner city (Rochdale Road, Hyde Road, Wilmslow Road, Princess Road, Stockport Road) with a segregated/driverless DLR/Vancouver Skytrain system to connect major regional destinations along the general S/SE-NW alignment (Wigan, Bolton, the three Unis, the city centre, the major hospitals, Cheadle Royal, Airport/HS2, Wilmslow and Stockport). The latter would obviously be very expensive, but if you kept the very expensive bits to a minimum I suspect the sums could add up.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 06:46 PM   #4765
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Im more of the belief that it will remain a core tram system supplemented by express tram-train services to further flung destinations. Its decades off but there will eventually be a requirement for some segregation from the street to move the number of passengers and services through the city centre more efficently.

The policy on future routes remains as far as I know introduce high frequency tram-bus services to grow and concentrate services along a particular spine then when they reach crictical mass (become cost effective) convert to rail.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 07:46 PM   #4766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
If VD takes that route to Altrincham it suggests she's not brightest spark in the world.

I have a daft future transport project of my own, but I haven't the time to elaborate it in great detail yet. Let's just say it would wind Kurt up something rotten.
No gone on.

Make it daft.

VD girl's journey was purely illustrative.

A future GM public transport network will be dominated more than anything by money and what powers (if any) GM has to run it.

Pretty much as it always has.

A future network will be cemented first by the tram system, which I doubt will expand any much more than is planned, bar say completion of the Stockport, Port Salford and Airport links and maybe an extension to Stalybridge.

Second the existing system will be enhanced by extending the Eccles/Mediacity/Port Salford by some form of tram-train that would be compatible to all to Rose Hill, Glossop and Chinley.

Extending any more tram/train depends on the success of the above. But to be frank I see only routes out to Wigan.

Heavy rail will be hopefully enhanced by the Northern Hub.

And to tie up the remainder will be buses, although I will suggest that modality will continue to decline.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 02:12 AM   #4767
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Ok if you looking for the daft future transport projects to enhance the city region.

Welcome to the SLine.

A cross city suburban route that connects all of the town boroughs of GM (bar Oldham).

Our journey starts on a frosty Monday morning and Good Citizen Ted stands wearily at Rochdale Interchange. He sips his latte and ascends onto the 0712 S Bahn.

First it passes along to the town main station, joins the heavy rail line and carries on down to Bury along a reconverted ELR line.

Ted dozes now as the tram tram accelerates past Radcliffe and now a new line from there to Bolton station and finally he is rocked out of his AM slumber as the vehicle arrives in Wigan. He awakes, checks himself and leaves.

His warm seat is keenly occupied by Happy Worker Radge. She folds her Daily Mail and checks herself in the window. The tram leaves and heads quickly through the pot holes of central Lancashire south eastward. The vehicle stops at Salford Crescent and she leaves with thoughts in her head about the morning's lecture.

Her seat is taken hurriedly by Young Student Veronica Devine or VD as she is known to her friends. VD has all the time in the world to meet her friends for coffee later. She yawns and watches the stations fly by; Manchester Victoria, SportsCity, Littlemoss, Ashton west Interchange, Reddish North, Stockport, Cheadle and then finally Altrincham.

She stretches her legs, yawns again, leaves and watches the vehicle begin it's S shaped trek back to Rochdale.
I await the diagram for the S-bahn/line
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Old December 24th, 2012, 02:25 AM   #4768
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Alright heaton, 'tis your lucky day (since I've got a chest infection so I can't really do much anyway). I present to you my stupid idea, in very simplified powerpoint diagram form.



It's a medium capacity system taking the Wigan line and linking it to Leigh and Bolton via a mix of disused rail ROW and some short tunnels, linking it in a tunnel under the city centre to Mauldeth Road where it surfaces and runs elevated down Kingsway before splitting to Stockport, the Airport and Wilmslow in a combination of elevated and at grade.

The system would be entirely segregated using driverless vehicles (to keep those operating costs down), probably the same size as a pair of M5000s coupled together. If each branch had frequency of a Metrolink line the core (Walkden-East Didsbury) section would have a service frequency of 30tph or 1 vehicle every 2 mins in peak, equivalent to about 12,000 seats an hour in each direction. This might be more capacity than is required at first, although evidence from cities where similar interventions have been undertaken suggests that they promote high density development around their stations.

It would probably have a to have underground stations at Salford Central, Piccadilly Gardens, Piccadilly, Booth Street and Whitworth Park, although Fallowfield could probably be built in a trench. All other stations would be unstaffed either using existing sites (like Metrolink) or elevated in parkway medians. Total route mileage around 40 miles for all branches with approximately 1 station a mile.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 03:19 AM   #4769
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You cant really use driverless vehicles unless its all in tunnels and viaducts otherwise the risk of tresspass is just too high.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 03:26 AM   #4770
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Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
You cant really use driverless vehicles unless its all in tunnels and viaducts otherwise the risk of tresspass is just too high.
Oh dear. Better tell the DLR to shut down as it runs at ground level in quite a few places.

Think you missed this important bit.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
The system would be entirely segregated using driverless vehicles
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Old December 24th, 2012, 12:47 PM   #4771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
Alright heaton, 'tis your lucky day (since I've got a chest infection so I can't really do much anyway). I present to you my stupid idea, in very simplified powerpoint diagram form.



It's a medium capacity system taking the Wigan line and linking it to Leigh and Bolton via a mix of disused rail ROW and some short tunnels, linking it in a tunnel under the city centre to Mauldeth Road where it surfaces and runs elevated down Kingsway before splitting to Stockport, the Airport and Wilmslow in a combination of elevated and at grade.

The system would be entirely segregated using driverless vehicles (to keep those operating costs down), probably the same size as a pair of M5000s coupled together. If each branch had frequency of a Metrolink line the core (Walkden-East Didsbury) section would have a service frequency of 30tph or 1 vehicle every 2 mins in peak, equivalent to about 12,000 seats an hour in each direction. This might be more capacity than is required at first, although evidence from cities where similar interventions have been undertaken suggests that they promote high density development around their stations.

It would probably have a to have underground stations at Salford Central, Piccadilly Gardens, Piccadilly, Booth Street and Whitworth Park, although Fallowfield could probably be built in a trench. All other stations would be unstaffed either using existing sites (like Metrolink) or elevated in parkway medians. Total route mileage around 40 miles for all branches with approximately 1 station a mile.
Ok I love this idea, reservations of course would be cost and the idea that capacity will grow as high density developments spring up is dependent on the economy of Manchester continuing to power forward. Am a bit confused about the northern side, it appears to put three major centres down one route when logic tells me you need 3 separate lines into the city centre to avoid congestion on the route as a higher frequency smaller service is what I favour over a large train with lower frequency. I am now keen to come up with my own plan that does exactly what yours does but at lower cost.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 04:03 PM   #4772
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Watcher - that's a good point, although if the DLR have managed it on the former North London Line I think it would be possible, although it would probably require some very substantial fencing/additional viaducts on the long stretches through Wigan.

Scientist - I don't think merging the three routes would be such a problem with Metrolink like frequency on the outer branches. If this was the case, then the central section would see about 30 services an hour, which is the maximum of the automated Jubilee line, so theoretically feasible. Of course the Walkden-Parrs Wood section wouldn't really require such high capacity, but it would go some way towards addressing the journey time costs of going up/down stairs to board a train.

Cost would obviously be the big issue, as unlike Metrolink the big ticket items (tunnels, underground stations, elevated track) would have to be built first.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 05:21 PM   #4773
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Originally Posted by mackenziesoley View Post
Oh dear. Better tell the DLR to shut down as it runs at ground level in quite a few places.

Think you missed this important bit.....
Ok youve got me, point out these places it runs for lengths at ground level in places easily accessible by pedestrians.

Edit: If you mean the NLL it is mostly segregated in viaducts and embankments and where its not it has a 10ft fence.

Last edited by WatcherZero; December 24th, 2012 at 05:29 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 05:21 PM   #4774
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Ok here was my train of thought on Che's ideas. Still trams rather than driverless and avoiding tunnelling. I'm starting to tend towards favouring all tunnelling to be kept out of the equation on grounds of access, ambience and cost. Segregation is achieved instead by demolition. This is still expensive but unlike London some corridors have unused or poorly used land. There is also a lot of land that has low rise buildings on them so that the costs of new land being used for trams could be offset by rebuilding high rise buildings in the smaller space remaining. First corridor:
image hosted on flickr

Picture 9 by scientist12, on Flickr
The boxes in yellow mark the buildings for demolition all of them could be demolished and rebuilt in high rise form (esp on the triangle and by the canal) to better utilise the land in a CBD. A new bridge would be constructed over the canal to ensure complete segregation from the traffic. I envisage it going up to Albert square and joining the second city crossing to Victoria. More demand for point to centre rather than cross city so let people change if they want to go across the city.

Second corridor. Rusholme tram bypass. Again the areas in yellow could be demolished or in fact a wide area round here could be demolished as these are all low rise, architectually insisignificant buildings of low quality, (there must be plenty of demolition experience after the demolition of Hulme, Man City stadium, Ardwick etc). This could then be regenerated with much higher density housing which would be warranted by the arrival of the tram. Another great advantage is that it could be less disruptive of the main arteries during construction lying slightly off the main arteries:image hosted on flickr

Picture 10 by scientist12, on Flickr
Still maintain Oxford Road is wide enough in most places with some pavement grab for full segregation like this at Fallowfield:image hosted on flickr

IMG_1452 by scientist12, on Flickr
Then off at Mauldeth road or wilbraham road or fallowfield loop to kingsway. Again Kingsway is wide enough for a tram bahn.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 05:31 PM   #4775
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Ok youve got me, point out these places it runs for lengths at ground level in places easily accessible by pedestrians.

Edit: If you mean the NLL it is mostly segregated in viaducts and embankments and where its not it has a 10ft fence.
It does in places through Deptford; they just built a wall/fence around it.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 08:02 PM   #4776
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Exactly, so point remains not really suitable for urban areas or level crossings.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 08:04 PM   #4777
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Segregation is achieved instead by demolition. This is still expensive but unlike London some corridors have unused or poorly used land. There is also a lot of land that has low rise buildings on them so that the costs of new land being used for trams could be offset by rebuilding high rise buildings in the smaller space remaining. First corridor:The boxes in yellow mark the buildings for demolition all of them could be demolished and rebuilt in high rise form (esp on the triangle and by the canal) to better utilise the land in a CBD. A new bridge would be constructed over the canal to ensure complete segregation from the traffic. I envisage it going up to Albert square and joining the second city crossing to Victoria. More demand for point to centre rather than cross city so let people change if they want to go across the city.

Second corridor. Rusholme tram bypass. Again the areas in yellow could be demolished or in fact a wide area round here could be demolished as these are all low rise, architectually insisignificant buildings of low quality, (there must be plenty of demolition experience after the demolition of Hulme, Man City stadium, Ardwick etc). This could then be regenerated with much higher density housing which would be warranted by the arrival of the tram. Another great advantage is that it could be less disruptive of the main arteries during construction lying slightly off the main arteriesStill maintain Oxford Road is wide enough in most places with some pavement grab for full segregation like this at Fallowfield:

Then off at Mauldeth road or wilbraham road or fallowfield loop to kingsway. Again Kingsway is wide enough for a tram bahn.
I quite like your idea of creating a new line offset from the main corridor. Would these be at street level or elevated? It makes sense to demolish properties just behind the main street. I had a similar vision with Rusholme where there are dilapidated terraced properties to the west of Wilmslow Road. You could thread an on-street or an elevated viaduct through there.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 08:12 PM   #4778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
If VD takes that route to Altrincham it suggests she's not brightest spark in the world.
But she has time on her hands!

Quote:
Originally Posted by heatonparkincakes View Post
VD has all the time in the world to meet her friends for coffee later. She yawns and watches the stations fly by; Manchester Victoria, SportsCity, Littlemoss, Ashton west Interchange, Reddish North, Stockport, Cheadle and then finally Altrincham.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #4779
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Exactly, so point remains not really suitable for urban areas or level crossings.
Urban areas like Deptford? I'd really only see at grade rails outside urban areas, where it would be in tunnel, elevated or where using the existing ROW in the existing cutting. If there was a level crossing on the route then it would require some viaduct, but as these would be light rail vehicles it wouldn't need to be as substantial/expensive as the ones Network Rail routes require.

It seems a rather trivial complaint about an idea which several more obvious drawbacks. If TfGM had the money to build a 40 mile DLR they'd have the money to build enough 10 foot high fences to run it fully segregated.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 10:04 PM   #4780
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Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post

Ok youve got me, point out these places it runs for lengths at ground level in places easily accessible by pedestrians.

Edit: If you mean the NLL it is mostly segregated in viaducts and embankments and where its not it has a 10ft fence.
I think you are confused about the London transport system again, so listen up while a local explains for you.

NLL is not the DLR as its the Overground's North London Line, a manually driven and separate railway.

I do note you've now tried to change what you said, so I quote you....

Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
You cant really use driverless vehicles unless its all in tunnels and viaducts otherwise the risk of tresspass is just too high.
Right, Crosshabour to Mudchute, around Beckton station (and the depot), Canning Town to Stratford via West Ham along with All Saints to Devonshire Road are all at street level.

DLR suffers from trespass just like other railways, in fact it was part suspended last night due to a drunk on the track.

You never mentioned in your original view anything about fences but stated you can't do automatic trains without it all bring tunnels or viaducts. That quite frankly is a load of crap. Learn to make valid points please and not talk about things you seriously know nothing of.

Note this picture with public path next to the DLR train.

image hosted on flickr

DLR 94 (GE Branded) at West Ham by -Causton-, on Flickr
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