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Old December 21st, 2012, 01:23 AM   #1541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
No definitely. It is a narrow gauge line that links Hendaye (F) with El Ferrol (Galicia, northern Spain).

Until this month, managed by FEVE (Spanish narrow gauge railways). This company will be part of Renfe next year.
AHEM.

The line through Durango is NOT Hendaye-Ferrol.
The line is not even managed by Feve.

The line is Bilbao-San Sebastian, and it´s Euskotren which runs it, Feve has nothing to do with it since the very early 1980s or even the very late 1970s...
And I think you know it.

Btw, Feve still runs its lines this month (among them, the Bilbao-Santander-Oviedo-Ferrol line), and will do so till December the 31st.
It´s from January the 1st that Feve will be absorbed by Renfe.

Last edited by 437.001; December 21st, 2012 at 01:28 AM.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 01:26 AM   #1542
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
AHEM.

The line is NOT Hendaye-Ferrol.
The line is not even by Feve.
And I think you know it.

The line is Bilbao-San Sebastian, and it´s Euskotren which runs it.
I know... in fact I should have to write... the narrow gauge network, but for anyone who doesn't know the different networks could be easier to understand in this way
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Old December 21st, 2012, 01:30 AM   #1543
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In the Netherlands, stations are owned and operation by NS Stations - even if NS doesn't serve the station. Nearly all retail stores, restaurants etc. are also owned by NS Stations (even Burger King). Platforms and tracks are maintained by ProRail, but travel information (including displays, passenger announcements, etc) has been transferred from ProRail to NS.
Does it work better this way, in case, as I understand, that ProRail used to be the owner of the stations?
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Old December 21st, 2012, 01:31 AM   #1544
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Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I know... in fact I should have to write... the narrow gauge network, but for anyone who doesn't know the different networks could be easier to understand in this way
Don´t treat them as if they were idiots, just tell them what´s what!
If you tell them it´s Feve, you´re lying!

There´s just no need for that.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 08:29 AM   #1545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post

Does it work better this way, in case, as I understand, that ProRail used to be the owner of the stations?
Stations have always been the responsibility of NS. They make a lot of money off exploiting stations.

What used to belong to ProRail is passenger information. It was transferred to NS because NS could do a better job. I am not seeing that (yet).

I actually like the Spanish model more than the Dutch
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Old December 21st, 2012, 01:52 PM   #1546
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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Stations have always been the responsibility of NS. They make a lot of money off exploiting stations.

What used to belong to ProRail is passenger information. It was transferred to NS because NS could do a better job. I am not seeing that (yet).

I actually like the Spanish model more than the Dutch
I can´t speak for the Netherlands as I´ve never been there, but I´ve been to France many times, where stations are run by Sncf (which operates trains too) and not Rff (which just runs the infrastructure), and I think the Spanish model (stations and infrastructure by Adif, and trains operated by Renfe) is more reasonable.

I´ve been to Italy, Portugal and Germany too, but I´m not aware of how things work there, as I don´t really know these countries as much as I know France.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 03:12 PM   #1547
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Hey,

I am today in Madrid and checked out the Atocha station. When will the AVE tunnel für Atocha-Charmartin be opened and what tracks in Atocha will be used for the tunnel? The tracks all end in Atocha and no tunnel is to be seen...

Can somebody please explain me where the tracks for the tunnel will be? In a new part of the station? Can they use the "old" AVE station for the tunnel?
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Old December 21st, 2012, 04:05 PM   #1548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpUp View Post
Hey,


Quote:
I am today in Madrid and checked out the Atocha station. When will the AVE tunnel für Atocha-Charmartin be opened
2014, possibly.

Quote:
and what tracks in Atocha will be used for the tunnel?
None for now, in the first phase the tunnel will lead from the entrance of Atocha station to Chamartin station without stopping at Atocha.

Quote:
The tracks all end in Atocha and no tunnel is to be seen...
The tunnel is to be seen... but not from inside the station.
If you get out of the station through the Méndez Álvaro street access, and then you follow the railway tracks down Méndez Álvaro... sooner than later you´d find the works and the tunnel entrance.

Quote:
Can somebody please explain me where the tracks for the tunnel will be? In a new part of the station?
Ok.

In the first phase, trains will not stop at Atocha, but will run through a new provisional tunnel under the station to go and find the definitive tunnel a bit further away, then they´ll use the definitive tunnel till Chamartin station, where trains will stop from day 1 since the opening of the tunnel.

Then, on a second phase, a new underground terminal will be built for through trains, under the platforms closer to Méndez Álvaro street.
This new underground terminal will have four platforms, and only through trains would stop there. Of course this would mean that four surface platforms should be closed during the works.

Quote:
Can they use the "old" AVE station for the tunnel?
No.

Enough?
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Old December 21st, 2012, 04:09 PM   #1549
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Originally Posted by JumpUp View Post
Hey,

I am today in Madrid and checked out the Atocha station. When will the AVE tunnel für Atocha-Charmartin be opened and what tracks in Atocha will be used for the tunnel? The tracks all end in Atocha and no tunnel is to be seen...

Can somebody please explain me where the tracks for the tunnel will be? In a new part of the station? Can they use the "old" AVE station for the tunnel?


It will take a looooooong time

Tracks will be in the eastern side of the station, that one that is far away from commuter station and will use the old Spanish gauge tracks in that station.

They will not be at the same ground... but underground. Officially, line Madrid-Valencia has km. 0 at Madrid-Chamartin.

So...

Step 1: Finishing tunnel and having rails under Puerta de Atocha station (hint... Atocha is called for commuter and Puerta de Atocha for high speed line, they are absolutely close together but have different names and different code numbers).
Trains would be able to arrive to Chamartin from south but non stopping at Puerta de Atocha

Step 2: Making underground platforms there so trains would be able to finish at Puerta de Atocha and Chamartin.

Step 3: Building some "rail bridges" over that huge network to allow trains coming from Barcelona and Zaragoza to get those tracks. Without them it would be possible only if crossing (and cutting) absolutely all tracks at Puerta de Atocha.


It will take a time... be patient!!!


Anyway you are able to shuttle from Puerta de Atocha to anywhere in Madrid surroundings (incluiding, of course Chamartin stations and some other stations in city centre) with a free commuter ticket.

In your train ticket you will find a find letter or numbers code. With it you will have a single commuter ticket to anywhere in Madrid surroundings (and it will apply to other cities with commuter service).
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Old December 21st, 2012, 08:51 PM   #1550
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Thank you so much for your answer! So good to have you here, otherwise I'd be going home with many questions in my mind. One thing I am curious about:

I just used the (once a day) AVE Valladolid-Madrid, it was a class 112 train and probably the only non-gauge-changing train on the Madrid-Valladolid high speed rail.
So is there nowadays a standart-gauge rail connection between Madrid Charmartin with the south of Spain and all the other normal-gauge rails?

How did this one AVE train get on the Madrid-Valladolid rail if there was no direct connection to all the other networks in standart gauge?
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Old December 21st, 2012, 09:53 PM   #1551
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The Madrid-Valladolid line is not yet linked to the others. They use a kind of boogies, called rollbock in German, extensively used in Switzerland and Austria, and sold to Spain in a modified version (narrower gauge over broader gauge, 1435 mm over 1668 mm in this case, instead of the traditional broader over narrower, like 1435 over 1000 or 1435 over 750).

There are many photos of Swiss or Austrian rollbocks, but few of the Spanish version (I think I saw it only on a paper magazine).

More informations on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollbock
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Old December 21st, 2012, 10:46 PM   #1552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpUp View Post
Thank you so much for your answer!
You are welcome.

Quote:
So good to have you here, otherwise I'd be going home with many questions in my mind. One thing I am curious about:

I just used the (once a day) AVE Valladolid-Madrid, it was a class 112 train and probably the only non-gauge-changing train on the Madrid-Valladolid high speed rail.
So is there nowadays a standart-gauge rail connection between Madrid Charmartin with the south of Spain and all the other normal-gauge rails?
Not yet. By 2014 will though... we believe.

Quote:
How did this one AVE train get on the Madrid-Valladolid rail if there was no direct connection to all the other networks in standart gauge?
Coccodrillo already answered, I guess.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 11:32 PM   #1553
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I don't really get the sense of taking a class 112 for one! daily AVE service on that line if you can transfer it easier with a covertable gauge train and no rollbock.

My AVE was very empty anyway and it's just 5 minutes faster than a v max 250 train?! I got more question cominI up in the next days....

Thanks!
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 12:18 AM   #1554
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I don't really get the sense of taking a class 112 for one! daily AVE service on that line if you can transfer it easier with a covertable gauge train and no rollbock.
Don´t ask, it´s one of those dodgy decisions Renfe took these last years... now they finally seem to start to see reason.

Quote:
My AVE was very empty anyway and it's just 5 minutes faster than a v max 250 train?!
´Course it´s empty, it´s the only one on that line, the others aren´t AVE and are much cheaper, and people aren´t (that) stupid.

Quite another thing will happen the day the Madrid-Valladolid HSL will be connected to the Sevilla and Valencia/Alicante lines (not yet to the Barcelona line though, that will come a few years later), as many services currently done by Alvia 120 and 130 will be made by AVE.

Quote:
I got more question cominI up in the next days....
Do keep on asking then...

Quote:
Thanks!
You are welcome.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:09 AM   #1555
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Originally Posted by JumpUp View Post
How did this one AVE train get on the Madrid-Valladolid rail if there was no direct connection to all the other networks in standart gauge?

Even if it could be amazing... changing twice at Madrid!!!!! it will start anywhere in the north. Spanish gauge. In Valladolid changing to International gauge (HSL). Through to Madrid-Chamartin. Changing gauge again just only to arrive to Madrid-Atocha (not the High speed station but the commuter station... changing gauge again and going to Madrid-Puerta de Atocha (international gauge).

There, usually they go to Alicante. International gauge and HSL until Albacete and changing gauge again.

Yeah.... anyone would get lost in the third sentence or maybe before...

At least, in a couple of months there will be a Valencia-Gijon direct traing. HSL Valencia-Madrid, just Spanish gauge to change stations, HSL until Valladolid and Spanish gauge until the end.

And it is known that HSL that today finishs at Albacete will arrive Alicante before summer.


Better and faster connections and less changes.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 02:21 AM   #1556
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Earlier this week I was surfing around on Adif's website and read that Spain currently has nearly 2,900 km of HSR in service, 1,500 km under construction and that another 900 km is being studied upon. I am deeply impressed... good job!

I am a bit puzzled by the amount of train services offered by Renfe. In the Netherlands, we have three train series: sprinter (stops at all stations), intercity (skips smaller stations) and high speed trains (Fyra and Thalys). In Germany there's Regionalverkehr (regional trains) and Fernverkehr (long distance). Looking at the list of train series and types serving Barcelona Sants I am a little bit confused due to the plethora of names.

Looking at the list of trains serving Barcelona Sants, I understand that:
- Rodalies de Catalunya is a regional express network
- AVE are the high speed trains (Alta Velocidad Española) that go all across Spain
- Alaris is more of a "regional high speed" kind of train

However, where do Alvia and Arco fit in? What kind of services are they, how do they differ from AVE and Alaris? What kind of service is a Talgo train and how is it different from Euromed? What is the difference between Estrella and Trenhotel?

To me as an outsider, the plethora of brands is interesting. Do all of these brands have their own unique selling points, or are they more or less equal when it comes to prices, services offered and conditions of travel? How are they marketed?
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 05:50 AM   #1557
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Earlier this week I was surfing around on Adif's website and read that Spain currently has nearly 2,900 km of HSR in service, 1,500 km under construction and that another 900 km is being studied upon. I am deeply impressed... good job!
But they´re not cheap, you see. Some of them will have to be "frozen" for some time, till we find the budget to finish them. People now complain because the AVE is expensive (it is indeed, more than the French TGV), but the day Renfe puts reasonable fares people will really change their mind about travelling by train.
Now Spain is the most car/coach/bus-oriented country in Western Europe.

Quote:
I am a bit puzzled by the amount of train services offered by Renfe.
Are you telling me?
Yes, in Spain there are too many trains sold under different names and different fares.
It´s too complicated.

Quote:
In the Netherlands, we have three train series: sprinter (stops at all stations), intercity (skips smaller stations) and high speed trains (Fyra and Thalys). In Germany there's Regionalverkehr (regional trains) and Fernverkehr (long distance). Looking at the list of train series and types serving Barcelona Sants I am a little bit confused due to the plethora of names.
You aren´t the only one, sometimes that might cost a fine to the ones unaware of these different fares!

Quote:
Looking at the list of trains serving Barcelona Sants, I understand that:
- Rodalies de Catalunya is a regional express network
That´s the regional moniker under which are sold on one side the "rodalies" (cercanías in Spanish), that is, the suburban commuter trains, and on the other the "regional", "regional express" and "media distancia", that is, the regional trains that go outside the boundaries of metropolitan Barcelona.

Quote:
- AVE are the high speed trains (Alta Velocidad Española) that go all across Spain
And there´s also "Alvia" and "Altaria" (the ones that change the gauge) and "Avant" (high speed regional trains on the HSL).

Quote:
- Alaris is more of a "regional high speed" kind of train
Not exactly, it´s a long distance train, not a high speed one, though it can reach 200km/h. They do Barcelona-Seville/Malaga on the classic line (not the HSL, that´s the AVE which do it), and Barcelona-Valencia-Alicante too.

Quote:
However, where do Alvia and Arco fit in? What kind of services are they, how do they differ from AVE and Alaris?
Alvia is a high speed train that can change gauge to reach cities that don´t have HSL. There´s the electric version (S-120 and S-130), and there´s the dual diesel-electric version (S-730).

Arco is a classical long distance train on the classic line.
There´s few of them left now.

Quote:
What kind of service is a Talgo train and how is it different from Euromed?
A Talgo is an articulated type of trains made by the Talgo company, they do long distance trains on classic lines. Some of them can change gauge and travel to France (now only to Montpellier, in the past they´ve reached Geneva in Switzerland). Now there´s plenty of trains built by Talgo, but they´re sold under other monikers. The proper Talgo services are usually served by the oldest trains (some are older than 35 years).

Euromed is the moniker under which are sold a specific kind of fast services, using Alvia-type trains (S-130, in the past they were served by S-100 trains), that serve the line Barcelona-Tarragona-Castellon-Valencia-Alicante, calling only at these stations. It´s the closest to a high speed train on the iberian gauge.

Quote:
What is the difference between Estrella and Trenhotel?
Estrella is a classical night train. There´s only one left, the Estrella Costa Brava (nicknamed "Chinche Brava", that is, "Tough Bedbug", because of the number of marginal people and hippy-like/punk-like people that use it) Cerbère-Madrid. Very old and scruffy.

A Trenhotel is, like its name might lead you to think, a night train. They´re much better (and much more expensive) than the Estrella. One is the Barcelona-Paris, for instance, but there are others. Nevertheless, many of them will be suspended, because they lose too much money.

Quote:
To me as an outsider, the plethora of brands is interesting.
To many of us, it can be a headache.

Quote:
Do all of these brands have their own unique selling points,
Big stations usually have separated points (one for regional and commuter services, another for long-distance trains).

Smaller stations on metropolitan areas usually sell only commuter train tickets, and sometimes regional train tickets too.

Smaller stations outside metropolitan areas might, if they have a selling point with staff, sell all kinds of tickets, except for commuter services (though sometimes the same ticket is valid for a travel including a transfer to a commuter train).

Even smaller stations might sell tickets at the station bar, or might have just a ticket machine, or might not sell tickets at all (in which case you have to buy them to the controller).

Quote:
or are they more or less equal when it comes to prices, services offered and conditions of travel? How are they marketed?
Let´s say they could be better marketed, a bit more like in France...
They seem to be realizing about that in the last year though.

I wouldn´t compare with the Netherlands or Germany though, I´d rather compare with France, since France ressembles Spain more, as, like Spain, it is bigger but has a much lower density than Germany, and like Spain too, it´s much much bigger but has a much much lower density than the Netherlands.

There´s a fundamental difference between Spain and France, though: Spain is much more mountainous than France. Most of northern and western France is more or less flat, while there´s virtually no flat region anywhere in Spain (and the ones that look flat are actually plateaux).

Last edited by 437.001; December 23rd, 2012 at 06:18 AM.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 06:13 AM   #1558
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I think that 2900km includes some double counting, right? Such as the shared sector Toledo-Madrid x Sevilla-Madrid

Quote:
In Germany there's Regionalverkehr (regional trains) and Fernverkehr (long distance).
I don't think it is a proper comparison. Germany has tons of local/regional trains, the S-Bahn trains, ICE, IC, ICE Sprinter, EC, RE and many other acronyms for different trains.

Apparently Renfe has gone the way of Trenitalia, using different train labels to relate not only to travel patterns (such as in Netherlands, Belgium or Switzerland) but also to rolling stock used, speed profile etc.

I guess the case in Spain is the same as with Trenitalia: having many categories of trains labeled differently allows the use of different price policies for each of them, which for a state operator (or the biggest operator in the country) is useful to avoid diatribes such as "oh, but the xxx fare from Madrid to Jerez costs y Euros, which mean € a per kilometer whereas the xxx fare from Madrid to San Sebastian costs z wueros, which mean € 2a per km, how dare Renfe charge twice for people travelling to Irún!".

At least in the case of Trenitalia, adopting up to 15 different train designations (domestic and international) was the way they went to remove, from the public, the perception of any relative price for equivalent distances on national services, abolishing the old system of having a basic fare and then a table of surcharges for all kinds of "additional" perks on a trip (reservation, special rolling stock, fast train etc).
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 06:22 AM   #1559
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I think that 2900km includes some double counting, right? Such as the shared sector Toledo-Madrid x Sevilla-Madrid
He might be counting the Barcelona-Figueres and the Alicante-Albacete HSLs (to open in six months the latter, and next month the former).

Quote:
Apparently Renfe has gone the way of Trenitalia, using different train labels to relate not only to travel patterns (such as in Netherlands, Belgium or Switzerland) but also to rolling stock used, speed profile etc.
Sadly, yes. I much prefer the French way: RER, TER, Intercités, Lunéa, TGV... and that´s it!!!
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 12:24 PM   #1560
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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Earlier this week I was surfing around on Adif's website and read that Spain currently has nearly 2,900 km of HSR in service, 1,500 km under construction and that another 900 km is being studied upon. I am deeply impressed... good job!

I am a bit puzzled by the amount of train services offered by Renfe. In the Netherlands, we have three train series: sprinter (stops at all stations), intercity (skips smaller stations) and high speed trains (Fyra and Thalys). In Germany there's Regionalverkehr (regional trains) and Fernverkehr (long distance). Looking at the list of train series and types serving Barcelona Sants I am a little bit confused due to the plethora of names.

Looking at the list of trains serving Barcelona Sants, I understand that:
- Rodalies de Catalunya is a regional express network
- AVE are the high speed trains (Alta Velocidad Española) that go all across Spain
- Alaris is more of a "regional high speed" kind of train

However, where do Alvia and Arco fit in? What kind of services are they, how do they differ from AVE and Alaris? What kind of service is a Talgo train and how is it different from Euromed? What is the difference between Estrella and Trenhotel?

To me as an outsider, the plethora of brands is interesting. Do all of these brands have their own unique selling points, or are they more or less equal when it comes to prices, services offered and conditions of travel? How are they marketed?

437001 has already answered but a little sum up:

- Cercanías (Rodalies in catalan). Commuter trains in main metropolitan areas (sometimes could be small cities but with other big town in the surroundings). At renfe.com you have a direct link to all those networks and you can find some of them very big and other, some lines or less.
Furthermore, should you have a long distance ticket and arrive to a station with commuter service (this will include Barcelona, for instance), you will have a free ticket to all the network, never mind the destination within that network.

- Regionales. (including Regional Express and some other similar names). They are trains that will run over the classic lines and will stop in all stations in most of cases (there can be some of them stopping only in a couple of stations). No services on board, even if some of them make a long journey.
Furthermore... AVANT is a regional train running in the HSL. They are short distances, faster and not too expensive comparing the speed, journey time, etc...


- Alaris / Arco ... They are long distance trains that will run absolutely inside the classic lines. Arco are too old, Alaris can be compared with any train of the HSL
There are few Arco running on the rails

- Alvia/AVE

AVE will be a train running 100% on international gauge. Think that Spain has classic lines with a different gauges. That makes station having two different gauges. One for classic trains, other for AVE or that stuff trains.
An AVE train will not change the gauge entering any city. Maybe will reduce speed with the railway gauge will remain the same one.
This could make, for instance, that in my city, tracks 1 to 4 have international gauge and tracks 5 to 8 has Spanish gauge. An AVE train will always use tracks 1 to 4 and never, never upside down (technically impossible).

Almost all AVE trains are Madrid to anywhere but you can find Barcelona-Sevilla, Barcelona-Malaga and Valencia-Sevilla too with non stop at Madrid saving time.

Alvia is a train that can run up to 200 or 250, depending of the train (as far as I know) and can change gauges. They will depart from anywhere and, partially they will run under the HSL saving time. For instance, a Madrid-Pamplona, using the line to Barcelona until near Zaragoza and getting the classic line to Pamplona. Or Madrid-Bilbao, going under HSL until Valladolid and later classic line.

Maybe one of the longest journey is the Barcelona-La Coruña. HLS Barcelona-Zaragoza, classic line Zaragoza-Orense and HSL Orense-La Coruña

In almost these trains, in first class (preferente) you will have meals, press and some other services included in the price. Using tourist class, the cafeteria is always available, as well as they are very confortable trains.


As a little example I remember one of these trains when driving on classic lines. We had (already haven't) the intercity trains. Intercity first class had the same prices that for these trains in second class...


In any case... first to have a look, time of journey, secondly price (get a look Barcelona-Lleida in AVE and Avant and will compare in prices with Avant and AVE). If different possibilites, of course you can ask in this thread.

Happy to answer
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