Detroit 20 years from now?

[Oaronuviss]

Thinking about that population though is insane!
That's its same population in 1915! Almost 100 years ago.
Windsor's population in 1915 was about 22,000. Which means Detroit was 32 times bigger than Windsor at the time.

Today, it's about 3 times bigger.

[bayviews]

Originally Posted by desertpunk

Eventually those people move on, which is exactly what's happening. Buffalo and Pittsburgh are perfect examples of this. As those cities shrink, the balance is shifting from a majority of residents who are struggling to a majority that is working, more affluent, and are part of the efforts to rebuild. For Detroit, the balance will shift too, probably at 250,000 or so.

Actually, what we've seen in cities like Buffalo & Pittsburgh is a shift from a majority of working residents to majority of aging residents who've retired. If present trends continue, what's long been called the rust belt is evolving into the new retirement belt.

[Jennifat]

Originally Posted by CNB30

I think Detroit's population will bottom out at no lower than 500,000. In 20 years, If redevelopment, and gentrification, are successful, I could even see population growth.

With all due respect to Detroit, because I do want to see a thriving city in its place again, I think it's going to take longer than 20 years to see any meaningful redevelopment/gentrification/political restructuring to take hold and make a real difference there. It seems that the downtown area is on the rebound and great things are happening there, but the rest of the city is literally crumbling.

Even here in Minneapolis (which isn't a struggling rust belt city), it's still going to take decades, maybe even half a century (if ever) to clean up and redevelop our blighted areas. There's so much of it. I can't even fathom how Detroit is going to do it. It seems next to impossible.

[hudkina]

Originally Posted by Jennifat

It seems that the downtown area is on the rebound and great things are happening there, but the rest of the city is literally crumbling.

The "crumbling" nature of Detroit is severely overstated. The Greater Downtown area certainly has the most going for it, but there are plenty of other neighborhoods that are in fairly stable condition. While the 25% drop in population seen over the 2000's is still fresh in everyone's mind, the city isn't losing people at nearly the same rate as it was during the economic downtown.

Contrary to what most people think, the vast majority of Detroit doesn't look like the neighborhoods immediately outside of the Greater Downtown area. And even then, the inner-ring neighborhoods will be fairly easy to redevelop over the next several decades.

[Middle-Island]

Analysis: Stuck in reverse, Detroit edges closer to bankruptcy

January 28, 2013 6:22 PM ET

By Nick Carey, Bernie Woodall and Karen Pierog


DETROIT (Reuters) - At the Detroit Auto Show earlier this month, luxury was in the air. Pricey new Bentleys and Maseratis glittered - including a Maserati 2014 Quattroporte with a $132,000 price tag; U.S. Cabinet Secretaries and dignitaries rubbed shoulders; and many of the well-heeled attendees ponied up for a $300-a-ticket black-tie charity ball.

But in a city that is slowly dying, the glitz didn't extend much beyond the Cobo Center exhibition hall.

General Motors Co and Chrysler , which along with Ford Motor Co gave the Motor City its identity, survived near-death experiences after filing for bankruptcy during the financial crisis. Now, Detroit itself is edging closer to a similar precipice, only unlike the automakers, its chances of getting a federal bailout are almost nonexistent.

The story of Detroit's decline is decades old: Its tax revenue and population have shrunk and labor costs have remained out of whack. But the city's budget problems have deepened to such an extent that it could run out of cash in a matter of weeks or months and ultimately be forced into what would be the largest-ever Chapter 9 municipal bankruptcy filing in the United States.

[...more in link:]

http://money.msn.com/business-news/a...28&id=16049609

[bayviews]

Originally Posted by Jennifat

With all due respect to Detroit, because I do want to see a thriving city in its place again, I think it's going to take longer than 20 years to see any meaningful redevelopment/gentrification/political restructuring to take hold and make a real difference there. It seems that the downtown area is on the rebound and great things are happening there, but the rest of the city is literally crumbling.

It should be obvious by now that the only way that cities like Detroit might rebound is if the become significant immigrant destinations, which Detroit hasn't been in recent decades, albeit it used to be a huge immigrant destination.

Which means that the dwindling numbers of existing residents become more welcoming to immigrants. After several years of tightened immigration controls, Obama's looks like he's beginning to lossen up immigration controls. Immigrants who are willing to re-populate & settle in long-declining cities cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Pittsburgh & St Louis and fix them up should get preference for immigration status.

[Middle-Island]

"Detroit is teetering on the verge of bankruptcy after the City Council has failed to make the necessary cuts to deal with having a smaller population," said Rick Jones, chairman of the Republican majority caucus in the state Senate.

Jones, who has indicated he does not favor a bankruptcy, said he would like to see an emergency manager installed to fix the city's problems. If that failed, there would be a case for finding a way to shrink the Detroit municipal area, he argued.

Detroit's population is now just over 700,000 - down 30 percent since 1990 - but the city still has to provide services to an area encompassing more land than San Francisco, Boston and the borough of Manhattan.

From the above article. Interesting you guys were dicussing these very points recently. What happens to those parts of the city that would be disincorporated--so to speak?

[CincyBearcats]

Originally Posted by bayviews

It should be obvious by now that the only way that cities like Detroit might rebound is if the become significant immigrant destinations, which Detroit hasn't been in recent decades, albeit it used to be a huge immigrant destination.

Which means that the dwindling numbers of existing residents become more welcoming to immigrants. After several years of tightened immigration controls, Obama's looks like he's beginning to lossen up immigration controls. Immigrants who are willing to re-populate & settle in long-declining cities cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Pittsburgh & St Louis and fix them up should get preference for immigration status.

I'm not so worried about cities like Pittsburgh and Cleveland. Cleveland already has decent immigration levels. Puerto Ricans aren't considered immigrants, but they are leaving Puerto Rico in droves, and Cleveland is a big destination, especially among highly educated Puerto Ricans. Cleveland is one of the top 10 most populated Puerto Rican hot spots in the country. Pittsburgh and Cleveland have both completely transformed their economies, whereas Detroit and Buffalo are scrambling to figure out what's next. I don't just look at population numbers, but I look at economic numbers and where the cities are headed. Detroit has huge areas of abandonment and an economy that looks mostly towards the auto industry. Meanwhile, Pittsburgh and Cleveland are building billion dollar hospitals, new convention centers, converting old warehouses into lofts, and get praise for not only their new development, but the direction they are headed in.

Pittsburgh just opened up a new rail line on the North Shore, and Cleveland's waterfront line is being upgraded, and new rail stations are going in at Little Italy and Cleveland Heights. Immigrants are very important, and I see them already headed to Cleveland, and Pittsburgh's next. But right now, they are doing the right thing focusing on bringing in a more educated populace.

[hudkina]

Originally Posted by CincyBearcats

Meanwhile, Pittsburgh and Cleveland are building billion dollar hospitals, new convention centers, converting old warehouses into lofts, and get praise for not only their new development, but the direction they are headed in.

UH...

Reshaping the DMC: Investing $850 million in Detroit's Future


Cobo Center Expansion: $279 million investment


Fully-leased $53 million renovation of the Broderick Tower
image hosted on flickr

© All rights reserved by Mark Hall Aka Mark The kid

M1 Rail - $137 million 3.5 mile streetcar line connecting Detroit's urban core

[CincyBearcats]

Originally Posted by hudkina

UH...

Reshaping the DMC: Investing $850 million in Detroit's Future


Cobo Center Expansion: $279 million investment


Fully-leased $53 million renovation of the Broderick Tower
image hosted on flickr

© All rights reserved by Mark Hall Aka Mark The kid

M1 Rail - $137 million 3.5 mile streetcar line connecting Detroit's urban core

Uh....

Maybe instead of taking out of my post what you want, it would make sense to read the entire thing, right? I guess we are forgetting the large swaths of Detroit that are sitting vacant (you can sugarcoat that all you want, but it's reality). The fact that a majority of Detroit's entire economy rises and falls with the auto industry. Compare job growth in both Pittsburgh and Cleveland to Detroit, unemployment numbers, diversification, etc. Does Detroit have anything like UPMC or the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals? All of which are ranked among the top 10 hospital systems in the country. Does Detroit have anything like Pitt, Carnegie Mellon, or Case Western in the city limits? Detroit doesn't have a neighborhood as vibrant as Oakland or University Circle. All the development happening in Detroit is all either downtown, or along Woodward in Midtown. There are even big swaths of vacant land along Woodward between downtown and Midtown. Isn't Dan Gilbert behind most of the renovations going on downtown? Most of the success stories coming out of Detroit as of recent we because Dan Gilbert is around buying the plethora of vacant buildings in downtown Detroit.

Great! It's about time Detroit started investing in rail over the pathetic people mover. But still, it is not connected to anything. The point being, when I mentioned Cleveland and Pittsburgh's rail systems is the fact that they are already connected to established and extensive rail systems. In fact, Cleveland BRT Healthline connects to the Blue and Red lines downtown. Pittsburgh's new North Shore line connects to stations radiating to the rest of the city downtown as well.

So, uh, yes... my post, if you want to quote me on it, was talking about how Pittsburgh and Cleveland have diversified and are seeing developments ALL across the cities and have proven that their economies are no longer what they were before, while Detroit still is stuck with the automobile. In Detroit, most of the developments you are hearing about, and what you have posted, are concentrated in a few key areas. No to mention the financial mess the city is in.

[hudkina]

Originally Posted by CincyBearcats

I guess we are forgetting the large swaths of Detroit that are sitting vacant (you can sugarcoat that all you want, but it's reality).

Nope. I'm pretty sure I remembered them earlier when I stated, "the emptiest neighborhoods will be the easiest to redevelop" but I guess I coated that sentence with too much sugar for your taste.

Originally Posted by CincyBearcats

The fact that a majority of Detroit's entire economy rises and falls with the auto industry. Compare job growth in both Pittsburgh and Cleveland to Detroit, unemployment numbers, diversification, etc.

The unemployment rate of Pittsburgh and Cleveland peaked in February of 2010. Since then Pittsburgh has added some 81,000 jobs compared to Cleveland's 10,000. Pittsburgh's labor force has increased by some 61,000 people compared to Cleveland's labor force shrinking by some 26,000. Pittsburgh's unemployment rate is relatively low due primarily to job growth. However, Cleveland is still struggling with employment, and its relatively low rate is still due to people leaving the labor force. So really, Cleveland is in the same boat as Detroit. Granted, Detroit has seen a 2.5% increase in workers since February 2010, compared to a 1.0% increase in workers for Cleveland. Pittsburgh is certainly a bright spot in the economic recovery, but Detroit's economy seems to be recovering at a quicker pace than Cleveland.

Does Detroit have anything like UPMC or the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals? All of which are ranked among the top 10 hospital systems in the country.

That's a little unfair, considering Detroit's major university medical center is in nearby Ann Arbor, but even then yes Detroit has Harper University Hospital which is also ranked nationally. Obviously not at the same heights as the Cleveland Clinic, but it can hold its own.

Originally Posted by CincyBearcats

Does Detroit have anything like Pitt, Carnegie Mellon, or Case Western in the city limits?

Again Detroit's answer to Carnegie Mellon and Case Western is in Ann Arbor (#29), but within the city limits you'll find Wayne State University and the University of Detroit Mercy (ranked #20 within the Midwest among regional universities). Wayne State is obviously no Carnegie Mellon or Case Western, but it is a fairly well-respected research university and has a decent medical school and engineering school.

Originally Posted by CincyBearcats

Detroit doesn't have a neighborhood as vibrant as Oakland or University Circle. All the development happening in Detroit is all either downtown, or along Woodward in Midtown.

It's not just along Woodward in Midtown. It's all over Midtown. Eventually the area north of Mack will be just as "vibrant" as Oakland or University Circle. And there is plenty of development in the outer neighborhoods, does it really matter to you though?

Originally Posted by CincyBearcats

There are even big swaths of vacant land along Woodward between downtown and Midtown.

That big swath of vacant land will soon be the site of the new Red Wings arena.

Originally Posted by CincyBearcats

Isn't Dan Gilbert behind most of the renovations going on downtown? Most of the success stories coming out of Detroit as of recent we because Dan Gilbert is around buying the plethora of vacant buildings in downtown Detroit.

Actually pretty much everything Dan Gilbert has purchased has been move-in ready for the most part. He's certainly done some modernization in certain buildings, but he hasn't gotten his hands dirty with any renovations. (e.g. Broderick, Book-Cadillac, etc.)

Originally Posted by CincyBearcats

Great! It's about time Detroit started investing in rail over the pathetic people mover. But still, it is not connected to anything. The point being, when I mentioned Cleveland and Pittsburgh's rail systems is the fact that they are already connected to established and extensive rail systems. In fact, Cleveland BRT Healthline connects to the Blue and Red lines downtown. Pittsburgh's new North Shore line connects to stations radiating to the rest of the city downtown as well.

Yeah and Detroit's streetcar line will also connect to planned commuter rail and BRT.

[CincyBearcats]

Originally Posted by hudkina

Nope. I'm pretty sure I remembered them earlier when I stated, "the emptiest neighborhoods will be the easiest to redevelop" but I guess I coated that sentence with too much sugar for your taste.



The unemployment rate of Pittsburgh and Cleveland peaked in February of 2010. Since then Pittsburgh has added some 81,000 jobs compared to Cleveland's 10,000. Pittsburgh's labor force has increased by some 61,000 people compared to Cleveland's labor force shrinking by some 26,000. Pittsburgh's unemployment rate is relatively low due primarily to job growth. However, Cleveland is still struggling with employment, and its relatively low rate is still due to people leaving the labor force. So really, Cleveland is in the same boat as Detroit. Granted, Detroit has seen a 2.5% increase in workers since February 2010, compared to a 1.0% increase in workers for Cleveland. Pittsburgh is certainly a bright spot in the economic recovery, but Detroit's economy seems to be recovering at a quicker pace than Cleveland.



That's a little unfair, considering Detroit's major university medical center is in nearby Ann Arbor, but even then yes Detroit has Harper University Hospital which is also ranked nationally. Obviously not at the same heights as the Cleveland Clinic, but it can hold its own.



Again Detroit's answer to Carnegie Mellon and Case Western is in Ann Arbor (#29), but within the city limits you'll find Wayne State University and the University of Detroit Mercy (ranked #20 within the Midwest among regional universities). Wayne State is obviously no Carnegie Mellon or Case Western, but it is a fairly well-respected research university and has a decent medical school and engineering school.



It's not just along Woodward in Midtown. It's all over Midtown. Eventually the area north of Mack will be just as "vibrant" as Oakland or University Circle. And there is plenty of development in the outer neighborhoods, does it really matter to you though?




That big swath of vacant land will soon be the site of the new Red Wings arena.



Actually pretty much everything Dan Gilbert has purchased has been move-in ready for the most part. He's certainly done some modernization in certain buildings, but he hasn't gotten his hands dirty with any renovations. (e.g. Broderick, Book-Cadillac, etc.)



Yeah and Detroit's streetcar line will also connect to planned commuter rail and BRT.

Too much sugar for my taste? Ha! Look at your posts in this thread, you go out of your way to deny Detroit's problems. Detroit is in a real mess. Just read an article from the Plain Dealer where Cleveland is sitting at a $50 million SURPLUS, while Detroit just announced they are closing over 50 city parks.... let that sink in for a second.

Detroit fell harder than any city besides Vegas. Again, thanks to Detroit having one industry. Detroit's unemployment rate is skyrocketing yet again, and their labor force is declining. Look to Pittsburgh and Cleveland who throughout pretty much the entire recession, they have had lower unemployment rates than the national average.

Here are the cities' growth rates over the past year in labor force:

Pittsburgh:

1.4 1.2 1.0 0.4 0.8 (P) 0.6

Cleveland:

0.6 0.8 1.0 1.1 1.1 (P) 1.3

Detroit:

1.8 1.7 1.6 0.6 0.7 (P) 0.5

Unemployment rates:

Pittsburgh:

7.6 7.5 6.7 6.6 6.5 (P) 7.2

Cleveland:

7.3 6.9 6.6 6.1 6.7 (P) 6.5

Detroit:

11.9 10.9 10.0 10.5 9.7 (P) 10.2

Once again, Detroit's economy is showing that being dependent on one industry will kill you. Detroit's economy showed such a quick recover because IT LOST SO MUCH IN THE FIRST PLACE. Cleveland and Pittsburgh have the declining populations, but a more educated populace, and investing in stuff like technology, healthcare, bio tech, robotics, etc. Keep investing in those auto plants and creating more car jobs, but yet Detroit is watching its labor force decline and its unemployment rate go up. There's no denying Cleveland and Pittsburgh have weathered the recession pretty well, and that once again goes back to the fact that they diversified. You will find that Pittsburgh and Cleveland's biggest employers are in healthcare, Detroit, autos. Because Cleveland is such a world power when it comes to healthcare, they are building a new medical mart connected to their new convention center.

Cleveland Plain Dealer.... Feb 2, 2013:

The region's universities and health care systems continue to make major investments that enhance their core missions, revitalize their surroundings and seed entrepreneurial activity. It's paying off: Venture capital has been pouring into local companies, especially those in the high-tech and health care sectors. Last year, area health care companies alone attracted more than $225 million, outpacing Midwest competitors in the likes of Chicago and Minneapolis. A decade ago, that would have been unimaginable.

http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/ind..._toward_a.html


Ann Arbor? When was that part of the city limits? Did you not read my post? I said in the city limits. Pitt, Carnegie, and Case all sit IN THE CITY LIMITS of Pittsburgh and Cleveland. So yes, Harper can hold its own, but it doesn't rank nationally in most regards, nor internationally.

In the U.S. News & World Report ranking, Massachusetts General Hospital was No. 1 with 30 points. The top 10:
Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston.
Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore.
Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn.
Cleveland Clinic, Cleveland.
Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center, Los Angeles
Barnes-Jewish Hospital/Washington University, St. Louis.
New York-Presybyterian University Hospital of Columbia and Cornell, New York.
Duke University Medical Center, Durham, N.C.
Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston.
UPMC-University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburg...hospitals.html

Vibrant in quotes? You could only hope for neighborhoods like Oakland or University Circle in Detroit. These neighborhoods are extremely walkable, home to world class institutions (some ranked in the top 10 in the world), have billions worth of development going on, and to add to all of that, connected to the extensive rail systems in the city. Midtown has plenty of vacant land to be had, and even though there are "some" developments happening in Midtown, those vacant parcels sure would look mighty attractive for future development.

What does it matter if it matters to me or not? You quoted me, not the other way around. I responded to someone's post on certain cities. Pittsburgh and Cleveland were mentioned, and I feel that they are much healthier than Buffalo and Detroit. I am not limiting myself to a neighborhood or downtown, I am looking at the overall general city. Pittsburgh and Cleveland are investing in many more neighborhoods, and not so much of a focus in just a few select areas in like Detroit.

New Red Wings Arena, eh? Oh you're talking about all the surface parking lots. Yeah, I wasn't even referring to those. Has there been any updates on this PROPOSAL for the arena? But yeah, we could refer back to all the surface parking downtown Detroit, but I was talking about the land the surrounds much of downtown and Midtown. Vacant land, not parking lots. I will be more clear in the future.

Still, Dan Gilbert is being praised for what he is doing, and is being called a hero for Detroit in a lot of regards, it doesn't matter what condition the buildings are in. It's a hell of a lot better than what was going on before. Book-Cadillac, I believe a Cleveland developer took charge on that. Good to see.

The streetcar connects to BRT, but once again, Pittsburgh and Cleveland have extensive rail systems in place, and have so for decades. Now they are just expanding and building new stations and other renovations. Like I stated before, Pittsburgh's North Shore line in a bustling area along the stadiums and casino, as well as Cleveland's Waterfront line near the lakefront and the new Flats East Bank mixed-use development.

[Mudhen419]

where is the new hockey arena going? I thought that the area that it was going in was downtown? or is the area by comerica not considered downtown detroit? Either way I dont think the new arena will make that huge of a difference.. the winga already play close to the area.. i think if they move from downtown across the e-way (if thats where you guys mean) then it will take away from downtown but infuence growth where it will be (though it would be better if the pistons move in with them ( hockey is what possibly 98 home games if the team gets home ice throughout the playoffs? given the wings history they are atleast gonna get ya a playoff bid every year) add in the pistons and you get another 82 for sure so thats 164 guarenteed events for the year so thats almost half a years worth events plus whatever concerts and other events they schedule. would be pretty cool and beneficial if they could connect the arena to the proposed M1 rail line if thats still in the making. Either way I hope the D can turn things around.. will give me some hope for Toledo

[hudkina]

Originally Posted by CincyBearcats

New Red Wings Arena, eh? Oh you're talking about all the surface parking lots. Yeah, I wasn't even referring to those. Has there been any updates on this PROPOSAL for the arena? But yeah, we could refer back to all the surface parking downtown Detroit, but I was talking about the land the surrounds much of downtown and Midtown. Vacant land, not parking lots. I will be more clear in the future.

You were pretty clear when you said "There are even big swaths of vacant land along Woodward between downtown and Midtown."

You were specifically talking about the land between I-75 and Mack Avenue, or the area that will soon become home to the new Red Wings arena.

The northern 2/3 of Midtown is already reaching critical mass. Rental vacancies are near 0%, even as more and more units come online. The number of abandoned buildings is quickly dwindling as they get converted into apartments. A number of new businesses are opening to cater to not only the growing number of residents, but the massive number of students and workers in the neighborhood. The arrival of the streetcar will only help to make the area more desirable (and easier to live). Once Midtown reaches critical mass, the development will spill over (as it already has begun to do) into the New Center and Woodbridge/North Corktown areas.

[GarfieldPark]

To Mudhen: There are not 82 home NBA basketball games every year. There are 41 HOME games. With the pre-season, you may get 2 or 3 more. If you make the playoffs, you'll get a few more. I don't know how many home hockey matches are in a regular NHL season. I thought the NBA and NHL played a similar number of games per year. 98 home games - even going far into the playoffs - seems like an awful lot. I would bet your total of 164 "guaranteed" home NBA and NHL events is pretty high. It may be closer to about 82 "guaranteed home NBA and NHL games.

[WeimieLvr]

Originally Posted by hudkina

You were pretty clear when you said "There are even big swaths of vacant land along Woodward between downtown and Midtown."

You were specifically talking about the land between I-75 and Mack Avenue, or the area that will soon become home to the new Red Wings arena.

The northern 2/3 of Midtown is already reaching critical mass. Rental vacancies are near 0%, even as more and more units come online. The number of abandoned buildings is quickly dwindling as they get converted into apartments. A number of new businesses are opening to cater to not only the growing number of residents, but the massive number of students and workers in the neighborhood. The arrival of the streetcar will only help to make the area more desirable (and easier to live). Once Midtown reaches critical mass, the development will spill over (as it already has begun to do) into the New Center and Woodbridge/North Corktown areas.

There is always someone on this site who knows more about your city that you do. All you can do is laugh it off and forget about. There is just no educating some people...and that Cincy guy is one of them.

[CincyBearcats]

Originally Posted by hudkina

You were pretty clear when you said "There are even big swaths of vacant land along Woodward between downtown and Midtown."

You were specifically talking about the land between I-75 and Mack Avenue, or the area that will soon become home to the new Red Wings arena.

The northern 2/3 of Midtown is already reaching critical mass. Rental vacancies are near 0%, even as more and more units come online. The number of abandoned buildings is quickly dwindling as they get converted into apartments. A number of new businesses are opening to cater to not only the growing number of residents, but the massive number of students and workers in the neighborhood. The arrival of the streetcar will only help to make the area more desirable (and easier to live). Once Midtown reaches critical mass, the development will spill over (as it already has begun to do) into the New Center and Woodbridge/North Corktown areas.

No, I don't think I was very clear. I was referring more to the mass of general urban prairies that populate the surrounding areas around Midtown and downtown along Woodward, not so much the surface lots which I would have been more clear in mentioning. Think Brush Park and well beyond. Though, Brush Park is pretty close to the PROPOSED new Red Wings arena. The city is still contemplating the idea, nothing has come close to fruition as far as it goes. Although, the Red Wings do need a new arena, and now would be a good time.

The streetcar will help spur development along a connected corridor, but Detroit needs rail development to help spill development back away from the Woodward Corridor. That goes back to the urban prairie phenomenon that Detroit is suffering from. It will take a long time to help fill in these large areas of vacant land. If there was a developed rail system, even only a few years old, I think it would help development growth just that much more.

[CincyBearcats]

Originally Posted by WeimieLvr

There is always someone on this site who knows more about your city that you do. All you can do is laugh it off and forget about. There is just no educating some people...and that Cincy guy is one of them.

I am one of them? Look who's talking. Pot, meet kettle.

All I can do is laugh at your inane posts that have nothing to do with the thread.

You argue for the sake of arguing. I have seen you in other threads lash out at people who don't share the same opinion as you. You start debates for no reason at all. This whole thread (read the title) is about Detroit. I responded to one poster, and have held a matter-of-fact discussion and listed facts. Whether you want to believe them or think they're skewed, that's your problem. But in the general scheme of things, I have stuck to the original topic at hand, and didn't come in bit***** just for the sake to bit**. You want to argue, hell, I have no problem doing so.... especially with someone like yourself. But there's something called a private message up in your right hand corner of the screen. Take it there, otherwise, see ya, troll.

Refresher for this WeimieLvr poster:

Detroit 20 years from now?

Detroit?! What! Insane! Pick your battles accordingly.

[Mudhen419]

Originally Posted by GarfieldPark

To Mudhen: There are not 82 home NBA basketball games every year. There are 41 HOME games. With the pre-season, you may get 2 or 3 more. If you make the playoffs, you'll get a few more. I don't know how many home hockey matches are in a regular NHL season. I thought the NBA and NHL played a similar number of games per year. 98 home games - even going far into the playoffs - seems like an awful lot. I would bet your total of 164 "guaranteed" home NBA and NHL events is pretty high. It may be closer to about 82 "guaranteed home NBA and NHL games.

Lol yea i messed that one up... 41 home games for hockey and bball... so that would go to 82 combined... plus, nhl playoffs is 4 rds of best of 7 so if they get home ice through out the playoffs they have a possibility of gaining 16 more games (again depends on home ice and if they go to game 7's) and nba playoff format is the same 4 rds best of 7 format.

so with that being said it is possible for the arena to get 114 games though its not very likely.... if you add in preseason games it could reach 100 games every year since the wings are pretty much guarenteed a playoff spot every season and usually go decently far int he playoffs

[bayviews]

Originally Posted by hudkina

The unemployment rate of Pittsburgh and Cleveland peaked in February of 2010. Since then Pittsburgh has added some 81,000 jobs compared to Cleveland's 10,000. Pittsburgh's labor force has increased by some 61,000 people compared to Cleveland's labor force shrinking by some 26,000. Pittsburgh's unemployment rate is relatively low due primarily to job growth.

Now that's a huge contrast, if actually true. 81k vs. 10k

Could you elaberate as where all those new jobs in Pittsburgh are coming from?

If a long depressed city like Pittsburgh can generate such spectacular employment growth, I'm curious as to why a relatively nearby & similar city like Cleveland couldn't do the same.

What's Pittsburgh's big secret?