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Old February 1st, 2013, 03:23 PM   #761
moveupandon
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Originally Posted by tellmeastorey View Post
I don't work for the MEN.

Sorry to let you all down on the fire station, although as I've said before, once the council let slip that it had put £5m aside for another CPO attempt, Langsam will sit and wait for the phone to ring.
Sorry Simon! Was out with Louise Bolotin who's now going to take lead on campaign... told her of my faux pas by saying you were a MEN person! Hope the assumption didn't offend you. It's true, I'm a bungler!

This is the pathetic reply from Britannia. How ironic their critics are coming to speak at the meeting. Denial and don't care. Infuriating (see below). NORMAL channel (so deep in time we're drowning in their wake 27yrs later)!!!

As for that £5 million they deserve something like that in fines, a High Court case and a new CPO down a different route. Organising protests for March too after meeting. Hope will gain press attention and you might cover it in - (I'll get it right this time sorry) Estates Gazette!

Best wishes


___________________________________________________

Dear Mr. Prince,

RE: Redevelopment of London Road Fire Station

We are in receipt of your email of 23 January 2013 and invitation to the Public Meeting on Wednesday 27 February 2013, regarding the former London Road Fire Station.

We are, however, dealing with this through the normal channels of liaison with the City Council and English Heritage.

Yours sincerely,
Customer Services (?)
Britannia Hotels Ltd

Tel: +44 161 904 8686
Fax: +44 161 904 5331
This communication contains information that is confidential and may also be privileged. Any offers and/or commitments made within this document are subject to contract and without prejudice. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information within it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please return it with the subject line ‘received in error’ to administrator@britanniahotels.com then delete and destroy any copies

Last edited by moveupandon; February 1st, 2013 at 03:43 PM.
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Old February 5th, 2013, 01:25 PM   #762
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Great work MUaO! Featured in Manchester Confidential's email today

Public Meeting: London Road Fire Station 27 February Lucy Powell MP joins impressive panel for debate on the future of important MCR building

http://www.manchesterconfidential.co...on-27-February
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Old February 5th, 2013, 06:07 PM   #763
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Originally Posted by moveupandon View Post
Sorry Simon! Was out with Louise Bolotin who's now going to take lead on campaign... told her of my faux pas by saying you were a MEN person! Hope the assumption didn't offend you. It's true, I'm a bungler!

This is the pathetic reply from Britannia. How ironic their critics are coming to speak at the meeting. Denial and don't care. Infuriating (see below). NORMAL channel (so deep in time we're drowning in their wake 27yrs later)!!!

As for that £5 million they deserve something like that in fines, a High Court case and a new CPO down a different route. Organising protests for March too after meeting. Hope will gain press attention and you might cover it in - (I'll get it right this time sorry) Estates Gazette!

Best wishes


___________________________________________________

Dear Mr. Prince,

RE: Redevelopment of London Road Fire Station

We are in receipt of your email of 23 January 2013 and invitation to the Public Meeting on Wednesday 27 February 2013, regarding the former London Road Fire Station.

We are, however, dealing with this through the normal channels of liaison with the City Council and English Heritage.

Yours sincerely,
Customer Services (?)
Britannia Hotels Ltd

Tel: +44 161 904 8686
Fax: +44 161 904 5331
This communication contains information that is confidential and may also be privileged. Any offers and/or commitments made within this document are subject to contract and without prejudice. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s) please note that any form of distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information within it is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please return it with the subject line ‘received in error’ to administrator@britanniahotels.com then delete and destroy any copies
Says it all really.

Genuinely despicable company - the sort that should not exist in a right world.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 01:51 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by dannyb View Post
Great work MUaO! Featured in Manchester Confidential's email today

Public Meeting: London Road Fire Station 27 February Lucy Powell MP joins impressive panel for debate on the future of important MCR building

http://www.manchesterconfidential.co...on-27-February
Thanks! I'm a pessimist and it seems to be running too smoothly. I hope the guests don't pull out/ fall ill/ cancel at the last minute or something. Events can go so wrong... but hopefully will go well and lots of support, media coverage and enough to shame all 'decision' makers and especially the awful Britannia (who won't even offer a statement).

There is an open bar too for the more social aspect, so won't be completely 'dry'. A success would be every speaker turning up and it be so full there's the need for people to stand and squeeze around the edges. Hoping!

Last edited by moveupandon; February 6th, 2013 at 01:56 PM.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 01:53 PM   #765
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Originally Posted by js1000 View Post
Says it all really.

Genuinely despicable company - the sort that should not exist in a right world.
I know! I love the fact the Customer Services signature has some weird (?) ... are they even questioning that they give Customer Service?

So though their press release harps on about how misunderstood they are, how the media, the Council, any critics are 'bullying' them, they are not prepared to answer simple questions about it. Shambolic. Not mentioning the three times they have been granted planning permission over 27 years which they did not carry through even though there were no obstructions in place.

If they think they deserve this site and building to destroy for their own greed, they really need a morality check clearly spelt out to them.

So unacceptably disrespectful to Manchester.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 02:29 PM   #766
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https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resi...E3AE9F5EEA!198

Talking about weak responses, this is from the Planning Inspectorate.

They 'Can't' answer anything about this case so referred on to Communities and Local Government to 'answer'. And round we go again.

Weak, weak, weak. And the response will be, the decision was made in Nov 2011 and in Dec 2012 (for the £1.5 million legal costs, despite so many community projects failing after this 27 yr legacy of broken promises on this Heritage Hostage).

Shameful, bureaucratic and as per usual, no accountability or explanation, opinion of how to rectify this injustice, or even offer an attempt of one.

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Old February 6th, 2013, 03:40 PM   #767
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Huh. Some crew in Bristol fob you off onto some guy in Birmingham. Why don't those addresses have Manchester on them?
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Old February 8th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #768
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Huh. Some crew in Bristol fob you off onto some guy in Birmingham. Why don't those addresses have Manchester on them?
I know, so bogus.

Thought worth one last prod at the BS bureaucrats!

I don't expect anything of-course and so didn't spend ages on it!

The emails if anyone wants a go!

Robert.Putnam@communities.gsi.gov.uk
laura.shand@pins.gsi.gov.uk
john.blakeway@communities.gsi.gov.uk
enquiries@pins.gsi.gov.uk

____________________________________________________

Dear All

Unfortunately it seems there is an unwillingness to consider the concerns that Manchester residents have about the London Road Fire Station and the implications of the CPO report that have left our city with the continuing legacy of a Heritage Hostage. This is now the 27th years of this situation and my replies are simply passed back and forth.

The Planning Inspectorate do not seem willing to answer questions on the report in November 2011, or if the recommendations made would indeed be the same if it could have been foreseen that Britannia would go back on their promises. I then get passed back to Communities and Local Government Department (who I have already had an unsatisfactory response from) and so on and so on.

A panel of experts are coming together to discuss this case at the end of the month, including the MP for Manchester, the Head of North West English Heritage and CPO experts. Our city is struggling under austerity, yet we face 1.5 million legal costs, 14 months after what this company promised (with no view to definitive action) at this appeal where Paul Griffiths made his recommendations and Eric Pickles his controversial decisions http://www.manchesterconfidential.co...on-27-February

Britannia Hotels have had planning permission several times and this time promised that as soon as the CPO was removed that they would implement their redevelopment immediately. Of-course this is history repeating itself. Please refer to the numerous questions I have asked about these issues in past emails (including the last response from DCLG).

Why was there no consultation with Manchester public by the Planning Inspectorate? Simple licensing changes warrant this, yet the CPO makes clear assumptions on the public opinions. With an issue that is so important, why are the public not consulted or involved, instead “told” what they think by the biases of an expert?
Eric Pickles reasserted this in his letter 28/11/11. “For all the reasons given by the Inspector, the Secretary of State accepts that a compelling case for the public interest has not been made to justify the confirmation of the order” (Point 10).

In the Inspectors Conclusions he states in point 278: “Britannia’s Witnesses made it very plain that the scheme is read to proceed as soon as the threat of the CPO is removed and the funding is in place to allow that to happen”. The inspector essentially believed Britannia (despite the overwhelming past evidence of 27 years). One of the main reasons to reject the CPO was belief in the immediacy of the redevelopment and the genuine commitments.

However, Manchester finds itself with a Heritage Hostage that many wish could be rescued by businesses that can and will develop it or at least have the options to secure its usage and safety, away from Britannia Hotels. So I ask again:

• How do you propose for Manchester to progress with this case? Indeed considering the current developments do you think that a new CPO should unequivocally be supported?
• Do you consider it fair that Manchester City Council was asked to pay for the legal costs after promises were made and broken?

What do you consider to be the legal implications of this case in terms of corporate ownership of At Risk Heritage and the national implication this has?
• In your report, though you question Britannia's commitment I wonder how close you were to confirming the CPO?
• In your report you question and suggest a lack of public interest in the building being redeveloped. How do you justify this position?
• How do you defend against the allegation this case represents a political bias and regionalism that influenced this planning decision?

I hope instead of being passed around the “bureaucratic” roundabout of denial of accountability, where no-one is prepared to criticize this company, admit a poor decision or to offer advice to how to proceed with this clear case of injustice.

I hope all readers can consider how serious Manchester is taking this issue and the unfair impact this case is having on Manchester’s image, development and its already struggling services. I hope both Paul Griffiths and Eric Pickles might consider the extent the city is having to go to to consider a way forward with this case and therefore are due respect and transparency with these concerns. I may not be an expert but the pursuit of a genuine reply is not forthcoming.

I hope for a lucid and considered reply rather than a fob off from somewhere else in the Country other than Manchester.

Yours sincerely

Adam

Last edited by moveupandon; February 25th, 2013 at 02:45 PM.
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Old February 10th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moveupandon View Post
In the Inspectors Conclusions he states in point 278: “Britannia’s Witnesses made it very plain that the scheme is read to proceed as soon as the threat of the CPO is removed and the funding is in place to allow that to happen”. The inspector essentially believed Britannia (despite the overwhelming past evidence of 27 years). One of the main reasons to reject the CPO was belief in the immediacy of the redevelopment and the genuine commitments.
What worries me about the statement made by Britannia's Witnesses is the bit in BOLD above.

Presumably Britannia will defend (rightly or wrongly) their inaction by the fact that funding is NOT in place to allow that to happen! And as long as its their decision over when funding is available, you're screwed!
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Old February 11th, 2013, 02:12 PM   #770
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What worries me about the statement made by Britannia's Witnesses is the bit in BOLD above.

Presumably Britannia will defend (rightly or wrongly) their inaction by the fact that funding is NOT in place to allow that to happen! And as long as its their decision over when funding is available, you're screwed!
I read it as saying it IS in place and WILL proceed when threat was removed (but I have a habit of turning sentences to how I want them).

Well some still say nothing can happen with this... BUT...

The CPO Expert has a new way forward but has told me to keep even the premise under wraps until he reveals at the meeting a new premise. All very tactical and by all accounts he is very well connected, which makes it wonderful he was willing to come to this meeting for free (out of his passion for Heritage).

He hasn't told me too much because he says he can tell I'm a blabbermouth (I am). But it does sound optimistic and won't involve revisiting old routes! Anyway, a little over two weeks away and then perhaps we can know more then.

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Old February 21st, 2013, 02:13 PM   #771
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Perseverance and pestering for any acknowledgement or admission, condemnation or support! I know it won't come, but I feel worth the email!
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Dear Jean

Thanks for the email and I must say this is the first time anyone has acknowledged that this is a frustrating case.

Nevertheless, I cannot see what harm it would be for the decision makers to express disappointment with Britannia Hotel's position or to express the premise their defence was misleading, hence influenced the rejection of the CPO.

The public meeting will meet this Wednesday with media exposure. Luckily, we have an important contact with a CPO Expert who suggests there is a way forward on this case, even though I've had upset and disempowered emails e.g. from the Civic Society who feel this case is hopeless despite how beloved this building is. Fortunately he suggests we do not need to revisit the past decision makers as to many of people this situation of a continuing Heritage Hostage (of its 27th year), was extremely predictable.

His expertise offers hope for this case. Indeed the sarcasm in my last email about consultation with the public is a criticism of how Heritage cases are treated in the UK. Similarly that businesses are not put out for competitive tender after years of neglect is something I cannot claim to understand. The legislation is clearly inadequate, as is the consideration of the public and what they want from very obvious cases. In 1902 this was called 'The Finest Fire Station in this Round World'. How dare a company be allowed to act like this.

Perhaps the decision makers had not read the fable 'the boy who cried wolf'. Simply put over 27 years how many times can planning permission be given to this company, to come to no fruition under the cynical guise of a commitment to this building, where other businesses could have, would have and should be thriving? Their PR statement revealed a contempt for the media, the council, any critics and this petition and they refused to attend this meeting or even offer the media a statement to their questions.

I cannot express the upset this case has caused so many people in Manchester (as the petition keeps gaining support). Quite simply the feelings are, to break promises and award the legal costs to Britannia just a few months ago is completely unacceptable in December 2012, especially considering the financial struggle this city is under. So many experts, including the CEO of English Heritage, many Politicians, Barristers, Architects, CPO Experts and Businesses support this campaign and so many have expressed shock with the inadequate, naive or biased decision made in November 2011.

As this case continues, this At Risk building being put at more risk in the City Centre of Manchester. If this situation continues, redevelopment will become so expensive that many's hypothesised position of Britannia's desire for this building to fall into disrepair for a cheaper conversion or selling the land value, will inevitably come true. Many people in Manchester feel this situation would never have been allowed to happen in a equally central London Building and this is why many believe there is a bias or disregard of our city.

We hope we can move forward. even if it means leaving a legacy and clear message to a new Government in 2015.

I hope someone can be brave enough to express dissatisfaction with Britannia Hotels and the legacy it has left Manchester or express empathy and sympathy with our cause, now we are left to pick up the pieces. I wonder if, though doubt such regard will be forthcoming.

Yours sincerely


Adam


From: Jean Nowak <Jean.Nowak@communities.gsi.gov.uk>
To: manchesterfirestation@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Robert Putnam <Robert.Putnam@communities.gsi.gov.uk>; John Blakeway <John.Blakeway@communities.gsi.gov.uk>; laura.shand@pins.gsi.gov.uk
Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013, 15:42
Subject: RE: CITY OF MANCHESTER (FORMER LONDON ROAD FIRE STATION) COMPULSORY PURCHASE ORDER 2010


Dear Mr Prince

I am replying to your most recent email, below, as I was the Decision Officer for this case, and I must explain to you that, however frustrating you may find it, there is no scope for those involved in administering the CPO system - either in the Planning Inspectorate or DCLG - to enter into discussion or correspondence with anybody on cases which have already been decided. These are matters which can only be dealt with through the courts. As previously explained, once the Secretary of State has issued his decisions on a case, he has no further jurisdiction and cannot reconsider these matters. We cannot therefore enter into further correspondence.

CPOs are not decided by democratic vote, and there are no powers under which the Planning Inspectorate could have consulted the Manchester public in the way you suggest. Furthermore, as I am sure you are aware, there is no longer a Government Office for the North West in Manchester to consider cases such as this one. Decisions are now handled nationally - by the National Unit for Land Acquisition and Disposal (in London) until 31 September 2012 and latterly by the National Planning Casework Unit in Birmingham.

Yours sincerely
Jean Nowak
PCC Division
Zone 1/J1, Eland House
Bressenden Place
London SW1E 5DU

FINAL REPLY:

Dear Jean

That is as expected. So my last word is:

This will be remembered as an appalling, naive, and unfair decision made against Manchester.

I hope the courts have more common sense and the prosecution and financial charge of Britannia will result.

May your departments decisions be more intelligent, informed, honourable and decent in the future, or they too will need to be rectified by public effort, informed experts and future Governments.

I hope no-one in your department is proud of this contentious, unfair and anti-democratic decision. May it rest on your consciences when Manchester's great legacy is ruined. I'm sure your departments expertise will be remembered as a shameful decision, as is the unwillingness to rectify this or admit the clear mistake.

Adam Prince

From: Jean Nowak <Jean.Nowak@communities.gsi.gov.uk>
To: Adam Prince <manchesterfirestation@yahoo.co.uk>; Robert Putnam <Robert.Putnam@communities.gsi.gov.uk>; John Blakeway <John.Blakeway@communities.gsi.gov.uk>; laura.shand@pins.gsi.gov.uk
Cc: John Pierce <John.Pierce@communities.gsi.gov.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 21 February 2013, 15:21
Subject: RE: CITY OF MANCHESTER (FORMER LONDON ROAD FIRE STATION) COMPULSORY PURCHASE ORDER 2010


Dear Adam

I am writing to acknowledge receipt of your email and to emphasise again that those of us involved in administering the CPO system are not empowered to enter into discussion or correspondence with anybody on cases which have already been decided. These are matters which can only be dealt with through the courts.
We must, therefore, regard this correspondence as being closed.

Yours sincerely
Jean

Last edited by moveupandon; February 25th, 2013 at 02:46 PM. Reason: update
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Old February 21st, 2013, 02:31 PM   #772
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[IMG]https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resi...D0pIPremuPXO4Y[/IMG]

http://citycentrelabour.org.uk/publi...-fire-station/

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Old February 25th, 2013, 08:28 AM   #773
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I wouldn't count on much support from the MEN. Strange how Mr Langsam has managed to have a nice 'back slapping' article published the same week He could possibly receive less favourable press!!

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....de-inn-1346074
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Old February 25th, 2013, 10:22 AM   #774
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The no longer a Government Office for the North West in Manchester says it al really. Like we'll take your taxes, but we don't give a damn.
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Old February 25th, 2013, 11:57 AM   #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moveupandon
In the Inspectors Conclusions he states in point 278: “Britannia’s Witnesses made it very plain that the scheme is read to proceed as soon as the threat of the CPO is removed and the funding is in place to allow that to happen”. The inspector essentially believed Britannia (despite the overwhelming past evidence of 27 years). One of the main reasons to reject the CPO was belief in the immediacy of the redevelopment and the genuine commitments.
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I read it as saying it IS in place and WILL proceed when threat was removed (but I have a habit of turning sentences to how I want them).
Now read my emboldened words again - this is what they're hanging you on. They will start when both conditions (CPO threat removed AND funding available)

And you know they will never have the funding available (current financial climate blah blah blah)

I would bet a tidy amount that this building will be flattened / sold / gutted in the not so distant future - whichever one makes Britannia the most money for the least outlay - do keep on fighting but I think its a lost cause...
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Old February 25th, 2013, 01:12 PM   #776
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Now read my emboldened words again - this is what they're hanging you on. They will start when both conditions (CPO threat removed AND funding available)

And you know they will never have the funding available (current financial climate blah blah blah)

I would bet a tidy amount that this building will be flattened / sold / gutted in the not so distant future - whichever one makes Britannia the most money for the least outlay - do keep on fighting but I think its a lost cause...
Depressing. You may be right. The Pickles & PO surely have made this seem such a horrid irredeemable mess. I simply do not understand even if a position is pro-Business why anyone would want a case of 27yrs held by a bad business who've broken promises so many times.

How can it be possible to be this bad and be this appalling? It just makes my mind boggle. The law is an ass and these decision 'makers' shameless fools. If the high courts are ever involved I hope BH are sued for this neglect and Pickles et al lambasted. How many years will we have to witness LRFS decline being told we are powerless? 10 more? 20 more? It's criminal.

Last minute cancellations for meeting, so panicking like a headless chicken trying to get things sorted!

I don't think I'll ever do a petition again - ever! Unlike the other numerous petitions for closing community centres, this lacks the magnetism as has been lost and forgotten for so long as not the hub of any Manchester life. There's 2030 signatures so I'm reasonably happy. But for clout still needs more.

Stan Edwards the CPO Expert looks the best help. Thankfully he is coming on Wednesday and has booked his train at his own expense... He is too propose a new way forward, but doesn't want to give all his hand away. He's an Honorary Member of CPO Association.

To go forward will mean MCC - MP & Labour actually contacting him. Despite giving contacts numerous times, upsettingly they haven't made contact. I could not of found someone with greater accolade or knowledge and he is doing it as a matter of his love for Heritage and nothing to do with me (the little fish in the big pond possibly swimming out of his depth - hence why I wanted these experts to come and lead).

The communication with these parties seems an issue all round - extraordinarily bad!!!! Is it MCC/ MPs preferred suppliers, lack of dynamism, lost in translation or inbox, too many other issues on the to find time to bother? Whatever the reason, it is making me loose faith in the leaders that could empower the LRFS case EFFECTIVELY.

So Lucy Powell cannot come (but will give statement and hoping to find senior Labour speaker) and the Chair Jonathan Schofield has cancelled today too. I cannot cancel the meeting due to the other experts coming and made the commitments. Seeking other speakers through contacts, but last stress I need! So a very bad day here!

It will have to go on and I still hope will be success and record of public's discontent.

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Old February 25th, 2013, 02:48 PM   #777
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Originally Posted by traffordboy View Post
I wouldn't count on much support from the MEN. Strange how Mr Langsam has managed to have a nice 'back slapping' article published the same week He could possibly receive less favourable press!!

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....de-inn-1346074
Oh let's all celebrate Langsam! Another hotel, more business investments, but no money for LRFS.

Yes, clearly he wants it for the land value and Sachas 2.

Disappointed with MEN
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Old February 25th, 2013, 02:49 PM   #778
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The no longer a Government Office for the North West in Manchester says it al really. Like we'll take your taxes, but we don't give a damn.
And we'll willingly try and ruin your city and say we're amazing professionals. BS X 1000.

Spineless snivelling wretches. Still sent the last reply basically telling them that. Does no real good, but made me feel better.

Waiting on possible new chairs, now Powell/ Schofield last minute cancellations have come. Furious.

She'll still give a statement but I can't chair as never chaired in my life! What a day!

PS: All others coming: Confirmed speakers are English Heritage - Henry Owen-John, North West Planning Director; Compulsory Purchase Order Expert - Stan Edwards (Director - Evocati Limited); Bob Bonner Author of Finest Fire Station in this Round World 1985 and Curator of Greater Manchester Fire Museum; Manchester City Councilors including Kevin Peel; Andrew Green Architect (Blue Barnacles), Emma Curtin - Architect and Lecturer and media representatives. Britannia has declined to answer the questions and concerns of the public or to make a statement.

Last edited by moveupandon; February 25th, 2013 at 03:01 PM.
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Old February 25th, 2013, 05:09 PM   #779
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Great work mate, you should be really proud.

Hopefully the negative media attention will make punters think about ever booking or using this vile companies facilities. I have spoken to people about a boycott and hopefully word of mouth will affect their profits.
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Old February 25th, 2013, 07:53 PM   #780
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Yep, good stuff Adam.
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