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Old February 2nd, 2013, 03:20 PM   #241
CornockES
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Ah but Toronto has this beautiful Calatrava designed covered, pedestrianised street which I'd kill for in London. It's called BCE place, look it up as one picture doesn't do it justice. There's a square and at least two skyscrapers have their lobbies off it. It was built some time ago too, before Calatrava became a bit common. I'd like to see something like this down Hounsditch.

This is ... Just beautiful... Exactly the kind of thing that would fit well in london with the elegant juxtaposition of old and new.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 05:02 PM   #242
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Plans lodged for London £160m Smithfield Market scheme

-- Link to Construction Enquirer article --

Henderson Global Investors has submitted major plans to regenerate the former Smithfield Market in the City of London. It plans to refurbish the ground floors of the former General Market, Fish Market, Red House buildings for restaurants and shops at the western end of the market. Around 230,000 sq ft of new office space arranged over six floors would be created behind the Victorian buildings, creating the new Smithfield Quarter.

Geoff Harris, director of property development at Henderson, said: “Significant investment is needed to properly restore them and to deliver the commercial and civic space that is needed to be able to make the venture a success. This needs a creative and pragmatic approach to the challenge and we are delighted to put forward proposals that combine restoration of the original buildings with the sensitive addition of new space.”
~~

Petition launched against McAslan's Smithfield plans

Link to farringdonsmithfield.blogspot

SAVE Britain’s Heritage has launched an online petition against John McAslan & Partners’ contentious plans to overhaul Smithfield Market in central London.

According to project backer Henderson Global Investors, the scheme has been submitted for planning this week following ‘ongoing consultation and work with the City [of London] and English Heritage over the last two years’ and will transform the General Market, Fish Market and Red House into offices and shops.

However, despite amendments to initial designs revealed last October (AJ 12.10.2012), SAVE insists the revised McAslan plan is still a ‘thinly veiled application for an office development with only a nod towards conservation’ which will see the demolition of a ‘remarkable group of Victorian market hall interiors.’

The conservation group is now petitioning architecture and heritage minister Ed Vaizey to step in and is also demanding that recommendations from a public inquiry four years ago into the earlier, even more controverisal KPF proposals are adherred to (AJ 07.08.2008).

SAVE director Clem Cecil said: ‘A public inquiry into the proposed demolition of the general market in 2008 came down firmly in favour of the retention of the building. The Inspector ruled that the buildings should be put on the open market, before demolition was allowed. Henderson’s must not be allowed to avoid this test.’

She added: ‘Henderson is making extraordinary claims about how much of the existing fabric it intends to retain. What they are actually doing is getting rid of about 90 per cent of what is there – it is basically a new build within a skin.’

SAVE has also commissioned an alternative plan, drawn up by John Burrell of Burrell Foley Fischer, the scheme is being billed as a viable, conservation-led alternative to the Henderson concept for the unlisted market (AJ 14.11.2012).
~~

Conservationists fight £160m plan to turn Smithfield into 'foodie Neal’s Yard’

-- Link to London Evening Standard article --

A £160 million plan to turn the long-abandoned western end of Smithfield Market into a new artisan “foodie” destination for the City has been submitted to planners. Developers want to restore the run-down Victorian buildings known as the General Market, Fish Market and Red House, which have stood derelict and threatened with demolition for at least a decade.

They hope to attract “Neal’s Yard-type” delis, butchers, bakers and cheese shops to a district currently overlooked by tourists and residents but associated with supplying food to Londoners for 1,000 years. However, conservation campaigners have condemned the scheme — known as Smithfield Quarter — because it will also involve building office blocks up to six storeys high within the former market buildings. They say it is a “de facto demolition” only possible because the brick structures are not listed — unlike the more famous wholesale meat market at the eastern end of the complex — and are on the point of submitting their own rival proposal.

The Smithfield Quarter scheme is backed by fund management group Henderson Global Investors, which has a long lease on the buildings from the freeholder, the City of London Corporation, and says the inclusion of 170,000 square feet of office space is the only way of making it commercially viable. The General Market perimeter would get 21 two-storey shops and restaurants with an internal public piazza beneath three office “pavilions”, with more shops and restaurants in the other buildings.

Geoff Harris, director of property development at Henderson, said: “Our proposals are a thorough and legitimate response to the challenges of putting these buildings back into proper, long-term, sustainable use.” The proposal is likely to come before City planners this summer, with the opening in 2017.

But Clem Cecil, director of Save Britain’s Heritage, said the plan plays “fast and loose” with the history of the market buildings designed by former City surveyor Horace Jones. The group’s “office-free” alternative involves turning the buildings back into traditional markets with basement exhibition and event space.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 09:52 PM   #243
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No change, no, no, change frightens me ooooh oohhh. Puts bag on head.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 10:47 PM   #244
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No change, no, no, change frightens me ooooh oohhh. Puts bag on head.
would you like it knock down? i would like to see it demolished, i don't care anymore.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 10:59 PM   #245
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would you like it knock down? i would like to see it demolished, i don't care anymore.
You are not going to start stalking me are you?

Why don't we promise never to quote one another again and leave it at that.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 11:07 PM   #246
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You are not going to start stalking me are you?

Why don't we promise never to quote one another again and leave it at that.
yes please, in fact i would like my account deleted asap, if someone can do that i will be most grateful.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 11:17 PM   #247
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Message 'ill tonkso' He can do that for you.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 11:24 PM   #248
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Message 'ill tonkso' He can do that for you.
good luck mr bland
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Old February 19th, 2013, 10:22 AM   #249
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good luck mr bland
Take care
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The headlines read: 'another footballer is charged with sexual miscontuct'!

Is it pure coincidence that a mans Scrotum resembles a brain - requisite with both hemispheres, and its truncated spinal cord - always in search of sensation?
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Old February 19th, 2013, 10:39 AM   #250
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I actually can't. Give yourself day or two.
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Old April 11th, 2013, 08:02 PM   #251
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Conservation bodies in dust-up over McAslan's Smithfield plan

-- Link to BD Online article --

Save Britain’s Heritage has accused English Heritage of a “shocking volte face” after the latter came out in support of John McAslan’s proposals for Smithfield Market. Save urged heritage and architecture minister Ed Vaizey to overrule his own advisory body because it had “failed in its duty”.

English Heritage wrote to the City of London Corporation to back the mixed-use scheme which was submitted for planning in February by Henderson Global Investors – despite acknowledging it would do “moderate harm”.

The two lobby groups were previously allies when they both spoke out against earlier redevelopment plans for the market at a public inquiry in 2008. But EH, whose long-serving London planning director Paddy Pugh joined John McAslan & Partners in January, has conceded that some development is necessary to fund the restoration of Sir Horace Jones’s 19th-century parade.

In a furious press release, Save’s solicitor David Cooper said: “At the public inquiry EH were totally opposed to any scheme that didn’t retain the buildings, particularly their magnificent glass roofs. Their response to the Henderson proposals doesn’t fulfil the inspector’s conclusions in any shape, manner or form. Their position is a complete volte face without any justification at all.”

Save’s president, Marcus Binney, said the McAslan scheme would destroy the market’s best features and amounted to the “worst mutilation of a major Victorian landmark in 30 years”. But EH insisted it was “applying established policy in a measured manner”.

In a statement it said McAslan’s scheme was a “realistic long-term plan to bring the redundant Victorian buildings back into viable use” and would retain the most significant historic elements. While it is true that the scale and height of the new office floors will result in moderate harm to Smithfield conservation area in certain views, these proposals have the potential to deliver economic, social and heritage benefits,” it said. “After decades of neglect, much work is needed to restore these significant historic structures.”
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The London Embassy - Paul Theroux

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Old April 11th, 2013, 10:28 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Lets examine this claim for a moment shall we?

People always were in search of a quick profit, they wanted grand houses for themselves, they needed equally grand offices where they could do business, they needed somewhere to store their goods, they needed transportation, clean water, food and beauty. Indeed, apart from the gadgets in your pockets, you are not so different from a guy who lived in Cornhill 500 years ago! The only thing that changed is technology.

If you are so ready to accept half baked modern shite then thats fair enough, but the rest of us want drama, beauty and elegance. We are not interested in glass walls and dull office blocks or utopian ideas that do not work.

Look at this, why do you think people love this sort of streetscape? Its not because buildings are built in stone.....

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr





Fair enough.



Well, I did write to both EH and The City, what else can you do? What a one guy can do? Noone else seems to care!

Sorry for quoting this old message that I reached while reading back this thread.

I think the question I underline above is interesting.


To me it seems there is people believing that taste is something that, somehow, belongs to the object. "People like this streetscape" aparently because of "the buildings in it"? Most certainly not. Taste belongs to the person observing. If people like those streetscapes it is because they have learned to do so. Maybe under the influence of their teachers, parents, idols, .... what ever. Maybe as well through reason and reflection. But what is most definitely certain is that objects do not have any intrinsic "liking value". Neither happens with materials, is not stone or glass possessing some king of value or lack of, as some people insist when they mention "glass walls" or "glass boxes", the value is in the eye that looks at them.

Why do people love or loathe this or that street scape? (and I do not care which example or photograph you put) there is only one answer: "because that is what they learnt to love or to loathe" It is a matter of education.

Now "have you been taught in the fear of the new or of change?" that is also a good question. The funny thing is that some people do not need to be asked or do not need to answer: it is so evident that is their case. I say is funny because, at the same time, being so evident, they do not know it.



PS: Regarding the latest news on this project I am very happy for the "conservationist" field. If one is to believe my quoted post, they "want a bit of drama" and that is exactly what EH and SBH are adding to the planning process.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 11:52 AM   #253
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I cant find renders of what is happening to 'Sir Horace Jones’s 19th-century parade' as mentioned above ?
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Old April 12th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #254
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Theres a link to some renders in the London Summary thread
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Old April 12th, 2013, 04:39 PM   #255
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because that is what they learnt to love or to loathe" It is a matter of education.
Nobody taught me to hate modernist streetscapes. I just dont find them attractive. I do like (good) modern architecture but Im yet to see an attractive modern streetscape.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 07:02 PM   #256
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Any more news on what's gonna happen to Smithfields??
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Old April 13th, 2013, 12:58 AM   #257
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Save Britains heritage's scheme shows how much of the existing victorian structure is going its another EH climbdown if this project at present goes ahead.
http://www.savebritainsheritage.org/...ket%202012.pdf
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Old April 13th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #258
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I actually will have zero respect for EH if this happens.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 08:15 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menganito View Post
Sorry for quoting this old message that I reached while reading back this thread.

I think the question I underline above is interesting.


To me it seems there is people believing that taste is something that, somehow, belongs to the object. "People like this streetscape" aparently because of "the buildings in it"? Most certainly not. Taste belongs to the person observing. If people like those streetscapes it is because they have learned to do so. Maybe under the influence of their teachers, parents, idols, .... what ever. Maybe as well through reason and reflection. But what is most definitely certain is that objects do not have any intrinsic "liking value". Neither happens with materials, is not stone or glass possessing some king of value or lack of, as some people insist when they mention "glass walls" or "glass boxes", the value is in the eye that looks at them.

Why do people love or loathe this or that street scape? (and I do not care which example or photograph you put) there is only one answer: "because that is what they learnt to love or to loathe" It is a matter of education.
This argument is entirely wrong.

Very few people have been 'taught' to love or loathe a landscape. What distinguishes the picture of merchant houses from, say, a large-scale glass curtain wall office development or a bland 60s office block of the type being pulled down all over London right now is this:

Detail. Interest. Humanity. Variety. Quality. Beauty

It could be a street in London from the 19th century. It could be a 13th century collection of mud buildings in Morroco. It could be Soaring Manhattan in the 1930s. What leads people without any education at all to enjoying streetscapes - whether they are familiar or alien - are the common things which bind humans together.

The modern buildings which provide detail, interest, humanity, variety and quality are some of our favourite buildings. Take the olympic aquatic centre - finally being transformed into its original configuration. There is more beauty in its diving platform than in the entirety of most developments these days.

People often throw this lazy unfounded idea that the whole reason people don't like [insert dull bunker of choice] is merely a matter of education. If the Queen Elizabeth Hall is seen to be horrible, then we simply haven't been brainwashed into accepting it as a triumph, so the argument goes. Well no. This is not an argument about old versus new. It's an argument about the human versus the inhuman.

Quote:
PS: Regarding the latest news on this project I am very happy for the "conservationist" field. If one is to believe my quoted post, they "want a bit of drama" and that is exactly what EH and SBH are adding to the planning process.
Funny how you quote "conservationist". I'd far rather trust English Heritage - who supported proposals to build Manchester's Beetham tower - than people who wave through any proposal merely because it is 'new'.

By way of a demonstration about why newness by itself is irrelevant.

This was new, not long ago:



And it's been torn down already because it's an unloved minger which has no humanity about it (to be replaced with something a little less anodyne though still far from significant)

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1602608

Here is the heart of Glasgow's financial district, interesting in that it represents the best of civic pride from the last 50 years:

http://goo.gl/maps/CVUgJ

The city has a glowing architectural history. Almost none of the buildings on 'the tour' encompass the important construction in the last 50 years. That is a damning indictment of the built environment.

This isn't an exception. It's the rule, though thankfully there are finally some interesting buildings being built once again.

That's why people are wary.
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Old April 16th, 2013, 10:22 AM   #260
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“What leads people without any education at all to enjoying streetscapes.”

The vast majority of people don’t give a shit about the streetscape other than where the nearest Primark or Starbucks is, you only have to look at the state of most people’s houses once you get past the front door .People gladly ignore waste, rubbish, clutter lying outside their front door and so long as the tesco express is open they don’t give a monkeys that the rest of the shopping parade has been ruined by shopkeepers who think garish plastic an neon and heavy shuttered shops is what brings people to town.

This argument about modernism = bad never mentions this. Modern life is as much to blame for the poor streetscapes than any architect or planner. Take an average street in Britain. What was once a uniform terrace of say Victorian homes with a garden , same doors and windows, gate, front walls etc has been ruined by occupants ( yes you and me not those nasty modernists and greedy developers.) who have added differing styles of doors & windows, acres of Upvc glazing, ill-suited roof extensions of varying quality, house painted garish colours or peebledashed, most front gardens ripped out and paved ( again to varying degrees of quality, usually very bad) for the car, rubbish and weeds rather than plants fill most driveways as apathetic modern life means people don’t care what happens past the front door.

By and large the only time people get involved in buildings is when they want an extension or want to stop the neighbours having one.
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