daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > European Forums > UK & Ireland Architecture Forums > Projects and Construction > London Metro Area

London Metro Area London Calling...



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 12 votes, 5.00 average.
Old January 30th, 2013, 10:31 PM   #141
Core Rising
Ampersands & What
 
Core Rising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: London/ Nottingham
Posts: 5,666

Kings Reach Tower and Kent House are West of here.
Core Rising está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old January 31st, 2013, 12:39 AM   #142
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 2,934
Likes (Received): 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Greco View Post
Neither Manhattan nor Chicago have clearly defined clusters, their towers are spread over a large area and not a cluster here and another there with barely anything in between. Istanbul doesnt look too bad, however it is let down by the poor quality of its towers.
Hmmm, I think they do. Downtown/Lower Manhattan and Midtown are clear clusters with a couple of miles of low-to-mid rise between them. Chicago has a clear single cluster with the Sears Tower as the peak.

If you're talking about random mini clusters that's different, and not what it seemed you meant at first because you clearly said you're not a fan of clusters. In that regard there is a danger of half-a-dozen mini clusters forming making London like like a smaller Tokyo. And who the **** even praises Tokyo's skyline? Random skyscrapers would look equally shit imo, the best hope is for two dominant clusters based on the City across to Southwark and another centred on CW. Vauxhall will just be it's own little thing, maybe a taller version of Brooklyn or something.

Istanbul is saved because it has probably the best 'classic' skyline of any city in Europe.

Quote:
Of course, here the towers wont sit in complete isolation, theres Neo Bankside and further east the Shard, however theres barely anything to the west and I think we could do with more towers south of the river. In short my whole point is that "alley" or "tunnel" of towers isnt something bad.
It isn't really west that matters imo but east, where a single cluster can form together with the City. Vauxhall is destined to remain alone, there won't be real towers around Waterloo right opposite Westminster.
kerouac1848 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2013, 02:27 PM   #143
Langur
Londinium langur
 
Langur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Posts: 9,091
Likes (Received): 835

Actually Tokyo's multiple clusters are really cool. You go up a raper in one cluster, and look over the lower buildings towards the next cluster in the distance. It gives a fantastic sense of scale and perspective, and imo makes a very exciting cityscape.

Overall I'd say London's individual rapers are better than Tokyo's, so the end result will be even better.
__________________
"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end." Edward Whymper

Trances liked this post
Langur no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2013, 03:36 PM   #144
potto
Registered User
 
potto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London
Posts: 15,027
Likes (Received): 2034

I agree, one big cluster is vastily inferior to multiple clusters from a landscape point of view. Even Manhatten only benefits from the illusion of multiple clusters from the height variations within the single unregulated cluster. Its landscape heyday was pre War when it was more obvious to the viewer.

Multiple clusters are merely the modern take on the celebrated medieval and renaissance cityscape with its focal points of spires and domes but on a larger scale because our cities are on a much larger scale.

This works perfectly with Londons new vantage points and its Victorian era expansion combined with the interesting juxtaposition of areas from the snaking river.

Londons old celebrated landscape of spires and domes centered around the square mile, it is so much bigger now and the skyline really needs to realise that.

Obviously the danger is that with an individual building there is a greater chance to stamp an aesthetic quality. With clustering as we have seen in London with 100 Bishopsgate, the height reduction at Blackfriars and spoiled height ambition at Vauxhall and Canary Wharf there is the danger of the cluster aesthetic being subdued and left unremarkable and unmemorable.

Last edited by potto; January 31st, 2013 at 03:44 PM.
potto no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2013, 03:51 PM   #145
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 2,934
Likes (Received): 350

This is obviously a matter of personal taste, but imo the skylines of NYC, Chicago, HK and even LA are vastly superior to Tokyo's or any number of cities with random individual buildings poking out (although Tokyo's sheer size makes it essentially unique and alone in the developed world to really be a comparison).

One or two dominant, large clusters gives a coherence that many small ones do not. That would include clusters with multiple peaks. Clearly building quality and diversity is key, so in many respects it's a moot point if crappy and dull looking buildings are default.
kerouac1848 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2013, 04:50 PM   #146
Loathing
BANNED
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,141
Likes (Received): 369

Have you been to Tokyo? I think Tokyo's great - much nicer to walk around or cycle around than any of the cities you've mentioned.
Loathing no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2013, 07:30 PM   #147
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 2,934
Likes (Received): 350

I was strictly talking about skylines, not the cities in total. I certainly don't think Tokyo has a terrible skyline either btw.
kerouac1848 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2013, 08:19 PM   #148
Langur
Londinium langur
 
Langur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Posts: 9,091
Likes (Received): 835

@Kerouac
Yes but New York, Chicago, and Hong Kong have far more skyscrapers than Tokyo. The American cities especially also have more variety of skyscraper architecture. They're probably the most celebrated skyscraper cities in the world, so perhaps you're being a little unfair?

Also these cities do have different clusters. Hong Kong's tallest seven skyscrapers are spread miles apart, and there are very few vantage points where you can see all of them at once (and even then you'd need 360-degree vision).

New York has two large clusters (Downtown and Midtown) and two small ones (Brooklyn and Jersey City).

You say that Chicago's "centred" on Sears Tower, but actually Sears Tower is right over to one side. There are also separate clusters, eg the one that will form around the 224m One Museum Park, which is well south of the main cluster.

Toronto has separate clusters at places like Mississauga.

There's nothing unuusual or wrong with London's wide-spread clusters. It's a great cityscape imo. And in terms of overall architectural variety and interest, I reckon London's better than any of New York, Chicago, Hong Kong or Tokyo.
__________________
"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end." Edward Whymper
Langur no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2013, 10:26 PM   #149
gravesVpelli
Registered User
 
gravesVpelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,239
Likes (Received): 1421

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loathing View Post
Have you been to Tokyo? I think Tokyo's great - much nicer to walk around or cycle around than any of the cities you've mentioned.
Have to agree with you about cycling. I lived in Tokyo for 4 years but some 30-odd years ago (!) Cycling was a pleasure as one had to cycle on the sidewalks (not in the streets). The sidewalks were designed for cyclists and pedestrians. My weekly workout was to circumnavigate the Imperial Palace grounds. In those days, the only high rise districts of note were Shinjuku (it had then and now has an impressive ’cluster’) and Marounuchi. Apart from these, only the building named Sunshine 60 in Ikebukuro (Toshima District) stood out.

The problem with Tokyo is that it is so spread out and now interspersed with high rises throughout, that the sense of impact and drama is somewhat lost. But NYC and Chicago (and London) win hands down when it comes to walking. Less hazardous thoroughfare junctions to navigate!
gravesVpelli no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2013, 10:32 PM   #150
gravesVpelli
Registered User
 
gravesVpelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,239
Likes (Received): 1421

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langur View Post
@Kerouac
And in terms of overall architectural variety and interest, I reckon London's better than any of New York, Chicago, Hong Kong or Tokyo.
Not sure by this remark if you are referring to the last 400 years of London’s architectural and social development, thus including the Georgian, Victorian, Edwardian, neo-classical and even the Queen Anne years (Wren’s times) in your analysis. If so, I concur. NYC, Chicago and HKG were not around and Tokyo was in its feudal infancy in respect of a 'cityscape'. But if you are talking about more recent history, since the start of the 20th century, then London does not compare with the skylines you have cited.
gravesVpelli no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2013, 10:42 PM   #151
SkyScraperRaper
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 984
Likes (Received): 90

I don't think the whole of London should turn into a New York. I do think we need a few more skyscrapers here and there. Although I would especially like to see the Canary Wharf area expand significantly and become a mini New York.

Clusters definitely work in London, I really don't like seeing single towers standing alone. Although the shard does work very well on it's own but, smaller, less outstanding towers just don't work for me.
SkyScraperRaper no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2013, 12:14 AM   #152
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 2,934
Likes (Received): 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langur View Post
@Kerouac
Yes but New York, Chicago, and Hong Kong have far more skyscrapers than Tokyo. The American cities especially also have more variety of skyscraper architecture. They're probably the most celebrated skyscraper cities in the world, so perhaps you're being a little unfair?
Of course, and I did say quality of buildings is the key. Tokyo was the first example I could think of that has multiple clusters spread around. It certainly isn't shit (as I stated).
Quote:
Also these cities do have different clusters. Hong Kong's tallest seven skyscrapers are spread miles apart, and there are very few vantage points where you can see all of them at once (and even then you'd need 360-degree vision).
But is there the clear dip to mid-and-low rise in HK like you get in Manhattan between skyscrapers? It appears as one cluster but with variation in height and peaks, almost like a much better and more compact Sao Paulo.

Quote:
New York has two large clusters (Downtown and Midtown) and two small ones (Brooklyn and Jersey City).
I did originally say Manhattan. JC isn't part of NYC, I only refer to the 5 boroughs (in the same way I only mean the boundaries of GL as London) and Brooklyn barely has any real skyscrapers.

Quote:
You say that Chicago's "centred" on Sears Tower, but actually Sears Tower is right over to one side. There are also separate clusters, eg the one that will form around the 224m One Museum Park, which is well south of the main cluster.

Toronto has separate clusters at places like Mississauga.
I said Sears Tower is the peak, not the centre, although perhaps it would be accurate to say it's a peak. I don't think a peak has to be a centre, the Shard imo is a peak for the City cluster from many views and clearly is away from the centre. I'd argued Chicago has one cluster but with a large variation in heights. I don't think you get that gap of lower rise buildings like you do in SOHO, GV, Chelsea, etc between Midtown and Lower Manhattan.

I'm not really a huge fan of Toronto's skyline tbh.

Quote:
There's nothing unuusual or wrong with London's wide-spread clusters. It's a great cityscape imo. And in terms of overall architectural variety and interest, I reckon London's better than any of New York, Chicago, Hong Kong or Tokyo.
Just to note I was talking about the future. I don't consider London to have more than 2 real clusters, although Vauxhall will likely form a third. Yes London has a great cityscape. Paris has a fantastic cityscape too. But I was specifically talking about skylines and clusters of skycrapers. Currently I like how our skyline has formed although it's clearly a growing child. Remember my initial post was in reply to El Greco's opinion on clusters

I won't go into talk of city architecture because that is pretty subjective. London clearly has a huge range, perhaps unmatched by major cities. But some will have specific styles they'll prefer over others, just as some prefer the uniform and planned Paris over the more diverse and hodgepodge London street layout (although it's exaggerated)

Anyway, best not to hijack this thread further and get back to the redevelopment.

Last edited by kerouac1848; February 1st, 2013 at 12:23 AM.
kerouac1848 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2013, 01:21 PM   #153
Langur
Londinium langur
 
Langur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Posts: 9,091
Likes (Received): 835

^ Does it really matter that Jersey City is not technically part of New York City? Jersey City is clearly a suburb of NYC, and its skyline forms part of the same panorama. The Statue of Liberty, New York's most famous landmark, is actually located on the New Jersey side of the state line.

And as for Hong Kong, yes there are wide gaps. The tallest skyscrapers are several miles apart (especially outliers such as One Island East or Nina Tower), separated by the waters of Hong Kong Harbour, mountains, hills, etc. You have to get up on a mountain or the observation deck of ICC to be able to see all seven of the tallest buildings in one view, and even then you need 360 degree vision.

Anyway we're getting bogged down in pedantry. All I'm saying is that I like London's widely separate clusters. I like the sense of space and perspective it gives. I also think standalones like the Shard, Strata, or Centrepoint can look fine so long as the individual designs are strong enough.
__________________
"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end." Edward Whymper
Langur no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2013, 03:42 PM   #154
jdjones
Citizen Not Subject
 
jdjones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,197
Likes (Received): 1467

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langur View Post
^ Does it really matter that Jersey City is not technically part of New York City? Jersey City is clearly a suburb of NYC, and its skyline forms part of the same panorama. The Statue of Liberty, New York's most famous landmark, is actually located on the New Jersey side of the state line.
I hate to be a total pedant, but Liberty Island is still part of New York State, think of it as an exclave. Liberty and Ellis Island were ceded to New York State from New Jersey after the agreement to draw the state line at the mid point of New York Harbor and realised this left the two important New York islands in New Jersey, kinda like Stilton cheese cannot be made in Stilton.

Liberty Island:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=40.68...13797&t=h&z=16

Funny thing about Ellis Island is when the island was ceded to New York it was before some reclamation, any reclaimed land is part of New Jersey, the original land New York (notice the state line as a ring in the eastern portion of the island):

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=40.68...13797&t=h&z=16
__________________
"Mothers and fathers and jugglers and judges, now we are joined in a cobweb of rainbows"
jdjones no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2013, 03:50 PM   #155
kerouac1848
Registered User
 
kerouac1848's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NW London
Posts: 2,934
Likes (Received): 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langur View Post
^ Does it really matter that Jersey City is not technically part of New York City? Jersey City is clearly a suburb of NYC, and its skyline forms part of the same panorama. The Statue of Liberty, New York's most famous landmark, is actually located on the New Jersey side of the state line.

And as for Hong Kong, yes there are wide gaps. The tallest skyscrapers are several miles apart (especially outliers such as One Island East or Nina Tower), separated by the waters of Hong Kong Harbour, mountains, hills, etc. You have to get up on a mountain or the observation deck of ICC to be able to see all seven of the tallest buildings in one view, and even then you need 360 degree vision.

Anyway we're getting bogged down in pedantry. All I'm saying is that I like London's widely separate clusters. I like the sense of space and perspective it gives. I also think standalones like the Shard, Strata, or Centrepoint can look fine so long as the individual designs are strong enough.
Ok, this is the final point I'm going to make on the subject.

The reason why it matters is because I was originally talking about Manhattan, not NYC or the wider NY urban zone. The reason why I specified Manhattan is because I was talking about London's skyline in its central inner core (zone 1 and parts of zone 2). I wasn't talking about London as a whole. I was arguing that, imo, one or two dominant clusters in the central core is preferable to a bunch of mini ones, and I was also talking about the future not the present. Also note that I never claimed standalone buildings should be avoided, but I was disagreeing with the idea of a skyline consisting of individual towers sprinkled around a central area instead of clusters. Having clusters doesn't mean avoiding standalone buildings completely.
kerouac1848 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2013, 03:53 PM   #156
El_Greco
Flâneur Extraordinaire
 
El_Greco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London
Posts: 17,716
Likes (Received): 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by potto View Post
the modern take on the celebrated medieval and renaissance cityscape with its focal points of spires and domes but on a larger scale because our cities are on a much larger scale.
Medieval skylines is what I had in mind when I said I prefer skyscrapers to be spread over large area. However I dont agree with your claim that random clusters are modern take on this. Medieval cities did not have clearly defined clusters (ie LA), the Church spires were spread over the whole of a city with Cathedral as its peak.

So yes it is random and isolated clusters that I dont like, I much prefer to have one or two large ones (ie New York or indeed those Medieval skylines (if you can still call that clusters)). The reson for this is quite simple. Today cities lost a lot their former drama, they are dominated by huge and often flat roofed buildings and a handful of isolated clusters of towers which do provide some kind of focal point but do not have the same visual appeal and drama as pre WWII cities had, with their Church spires, Cathedral domes, defensive towers, chimney pots and gables. I think that if towers were sprinkled all over the city instead of concentrated in tight handful of clusters it would bring back some of that drama.

Last edited by El_Greco; February 1st, 2013 at 04:07 PM.
El_Greco no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2013, 04:16 PM   #157
alonzo-ny
Thermobaric Thagomizer
 
alonzo-ny's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 19,042
Likes (Received): 1187

Ellis Island in New Jersey and the Statue of Liberty is in New York.
alonzo-ny no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2013, 05:43 PM   #158
jdjones
Citizen Not Subject
 
jdjones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,197
Likes (Received): 1467

Quote:
Originally Posted by alonzo-ny View Post
Ellis Island in New Jersey and the Statue of Liberty is in New York.
Most of Ellis Island is in NJ, a small area of it is in NY: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...13797&t=m&z=16
__________________
"Mothers and fathers and jugglers and judges, now we are joined in a cobweb of rainbows"
jdjones no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2013, 04:50 PM   #159
aphw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 131
Likes (Received): 2

Anyone fancy 'shopping a taller 1 Blackfriars into one of the renders for this?
aphw no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 18th, 2013, 12:41 AM   #160
benchaney
Anomaly XB-6783746
 
benchaney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: London
Posts: 89
Likes (Received): 16

As there is only 1 render posted here, thought I would add some more
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr
__________________

LDN_EUROPE, Streetlife1, Tubeman liked this post
benchaney no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.5 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu