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Old July 21st, 2013, 12:46 PM   #21
Adde
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There are timber-framed houses in Stockholm as well, though I'm not sure if any of them actually look timber framed from the outside.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 12:55 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adde View Post
There are timber-framed houses in Stockholm as well, though I'm not sure if any of them actually look timber framed from the outside.
We have often the same "problem" here; Many facades have been covered in plaster to provide some fire protection, like here:


http://www.gamletrehus.no/articles.php?id=24

However there are still many places with visible timberframes too, so I have no idea where NordikNerd got the idea that Halmstad had the northernmost timberframe buildings from.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 01:51 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musiccity View Post
I encourage you all to watch this amazing video of the city of Jyväskylä. It proves all my points, a perfect combination of functionality and beauty.

Ah, Jyväskylä. I think there are a few points I love about it and a few aspects I am not so excited about.

First of all, its impressive how you are never far away from forests and nature, from almost anywhere in the city. The bicycle trail system is vast and really very useful and efficient. The city is really made for getting around by bike. They have a neat and tidy pedestrian centre with all the stuff you'd expect from a small to mid-sized student town. In general the city makes a clean and well run impression. And last but not least, the setting with all the rolling hills and lakes around is quite scenic.

If you are a great fan of nordic modernist architecture you are of course well served with the works of Alvar Aalto and many other buildings clearly share some of the same qualities. For example the whole university campus along the seaside looks the natural setting and the buildings were simply made for each other.

On the downside however, if you like old European architecture there are only few buildings for you to see in Jyväskylä. While the feeling of living somehwere in the forsts while still being in a central part of town has its own charme some people probably prefer a setting that feels a tad more ... urban. And while the nightlife options were ok I had the impression other student cities in Europe of similar size had more to offer in this regard. And of course, drinking beer is prohibitively expensive. Maybe Fins are more into private parties therefore, I don't know.

PS: The video is great.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 02:33 PM   #24
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I have to say that I think that Finnish cities are really boring.

Walkability is not good outside of city centers. Architecture is very boring 1960-70's buildings mostly.

Nature is close that is true, but urbanity lacks in Finnish cities which are very car centered. Public transportation is very shitty outside of capital region.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 02:57 PM   #25
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Finnish cities based on the pictures are good but not perfect.

I would rather choose cities in Switzerland and Austria in anytime of the day! Though they're not perfect either.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 03:06 PM   #26
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I can't say a lot about accessibility but the train connection between Helsinki and Jyväskylä looked fairly good to me. I don't know about PT in Jyväskylä itself but a bike got you anywhere in the city area you'd like to go and I had the feeling all of it was very accessible by bike. For pedestrians the distances might be too far however and the periphery looks rather car optimized even though pedestrians and cyclists seem to be served largely as well.

Architecture is mostly pretty modernist indeed. You may call it "boring". I for one would miss classic or old architecture during a longer stay up there.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 06:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musiccity View Post
I encourage you all to watch this amazing video of the city of Jyväskylä. It proves all my points, a perfect combination of functionality and beauty.

If this is the kind of urbanism you like, really there are a lot of places that will fit your bill. Believe it or not, but the neatness you see here is fairly standard across Scandinavia with architectural differences of course. Modernism as you see here is more common in the suburbs, but it does make up the majority of developments around Swedish cities too.

I think you'd love a good number of clean, safe European countries from the sound of it. Switzerland and Austria as well as all of the Nordics. You might also love to see a lot of mid-size (but wealthy and not shrinking) Japanese cities too. They tend to be very neat and tidy as well as built around railway connections. I personally really liked a lot of the commuter cities in Tokyo - Hachioji, Kashiwa, Kichijoji, Mitaka and most of the suburbs along the Tokyu lines, and a number along the Odakyu lines in Yokohama too tend to be very nice indeed.

Take a look around some of these in Japan:

Sagami-Ono
Kichijoji
Hachioji
Kashiwa
Mitaka

Probably not the best video tour of Kichijoji, but here is one from someone back in 2011:



A look around Sagami-Ono in 2012:



These are just some of the ones I've seen in person.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 06:23 PM   #28
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Now for a bit of Stockholm, just to bring it back to the "Nordics".

Here are some lower income suburbs on the green tunnelbana line down south of the city centre. Pedestrian centres and shopping combined with train stations and bus depots.



This is a set of very small suburbs with a total of around 25,000 people living in them to the north east of Stockholm. Again, built around a rail line. You can see why they're popular due to the lake and bathing opportunities (near the end of the video at around the 12 minute mark).



Here is a newly developing inner suburb of Stockholm called "Hammarby Sjöstad".



Another lower income suburb to the north of Stockholm built around the blue line of the tunnelbana called Kista. Has a large IT hub up there and a lot of jobs. You see the IT and business section towards the latter half of the video. The residential and central part of the suburb are at the beginning.



Another middle to low income suburb to the south of Stockholm. Has a big shopping centre there. At the 7 minute mark again you can see people relaxing in the park at the lakeside and bathing. The waterways around Stockholm and the lake are what makes living here particularly special for most of us.


Last edited by Svartmetall; July 21st, 2013 at 06:32 PM.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 06:52 PM   #29
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I'd say, STOP TREATING US NORDICS AS GODS AND DO STUFF YOURSELVES, VARMINTS!!!

The Nordics are far from perfect. I'd say that UK is a far more perfect than us. The sparse Thomas Jefferson-esque suburban lifestyle that we brought in the 40's and 50's has turned Stockholm from a dense european city into a second Los Angeles. Just under-performing asphalt as long as the eye can see.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 06:56 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemanic View Post
I'd say, STOP TREATING US NORDICS AS GODS AND DO STUFF YOURSELVES, VARMINTS!!!

The Nordics are far from perfect. I'd say that UK is a far more perfect than us. The sparse Thomas Jefferson-esque suburban lifestyle that we brought in the 40's and 50's has turned Stockholm from a dense european city into a second Los Angeles. Just under-performing asphalt as long as the eye can see.
Hm, I'm from the UK and the modal split of Stockholm is far superior to even London, so it's hardly LA. Coupled with that, the density of Stockholm is around 4000 people per km sq in the urban area of the city. That isn't "undense". Couple that with the fact that most development has occurred around railway stations and you actually have a situation where it is more like Japan than LA.

Plus I've never seen so many apartment blocks in a suburb in the UK - single family dwellings as far as the eye can see.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 07:19 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Hm, I'm from the UK and the modal split of Stockholm is far superior to even London, so it's hardly LA. Coupled with that, the density of Stockholm is around 4000 people per km sq in the urban area of the city. That isn't "undense". Couple that with the fact that most development has occurred around railway stations and you actually have a situation where it is more like Japan than LA.

Plus I've never seen so many apartment blocks in a suburb in the UK - single family dwellings as far as the eye can see.
Well, more density can have many advantages. Less suicides, less allergies, less impact on the climate change, more diversity, more job opportunities etc.

UK is more gay-friendly than us nordics because they're used to that kind of diversity that their dense towns have. The only gay-friendly parts of the nordics are in the capitals, which hardly represents the countries as a whole.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 07:32 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemanic View Post
Well, more density can have many advantages. Less suicides, less allergies, less impact on the climate change, more diversity, more job opportunities etc.

UK is more gay-friendly than us nordics because they're used to that kind of diversity that their dense towns have. The only gay-friendly parts of the nordics are in the capitals, which hardly represents the countries as a whole.
I'm sorry but this is going well off-topic. If more density = less suicides then Japan would not be so high for suicides and Australians would be killing themselves far more than they are. As for less impact on the climate - have you seen just how much CO2 per capita is produced by the UK relative to the Nordics? Most Nordic countries use far more "clean" sources of energy than the UK for energy production, which has a lot of thermal power plants (whilst the Nordics use a lot of hydroelectric power and nuclear in Finland and Sweden). Couple that with the fact that most heating is provided by gas central heating in the UK, compared to the extensive use of combustable waste district heating in the Nordics, one can see that there is a massive difference on this front too.

As for density, the UK may be relatively dense on paper, but that isn't the total picture. The UK is far more auto-centric than Sweden most definitely (not sure about the other Nordic countries, but I can comment on this one directly). Sweden often has centres for each of their suburbs, whereas this is not quite the case - especially in newer UK suburbs. Where I grew up in Northampton, I had to walk for 2km to get to my nearest shop and I was in a "normal" suburb. This is by no means unusual. As for your comment about allergies and density? I'm sorry I really cannot follow that one. Completely nonsensical. As for more job opportunities of course a larger population offers that, but then there is also, proportionately, more competition for those jobs too.

Secondly, as for gay friendliness, that is an odd comment. Legislation wise, Denmark, Norway and Sweden have all approved same-sex marriage, and Svenska Kyrkan approves same-sex marriage in their churches (and voted overwhelmingly to do so). In the UK there is the same conservative rural area vs. more open urban area as there is in Nordic countries too - I think this is mostly true across the world in fact.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 07:48 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post

Plus I've never seen so many apartment blocks in a suburb in the UK - single family dwellings as far as the eye can see.
Apartments blocks aren't necessarily denser as there can often be lots of wasted space in between the blocks. It would not surprise me if the copy-paste row houses the UK have a love relationship with are denser than your average "lets throw few commie blocks around on this open field"-planned apartments block in the Nordics.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 07:53 PM   #34
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Apartments blocks aren't necessarily denser as there can often be lots of wasted space in between the blocks. It would not surprise me if the copy-paste row houses the UK have a love relationship with are denser than your average "lets throw few commie blocks around on this open field"-planned apartments block in the Nordics.
Thankfully we've mostly moved away from that mentality now and are doing far more infill and semi-closed block developments based around streets now rather than the hus i park style approach. The majority of newer suburbs in the UK (since the 1980's in fact) are not even semi-detached properties, let alone terraced (rowhouses), more the wimpey, Bovis et al style estates. The victorian era and inner suburb houses are most definitely more dense than the hus i park, though that isn't the majority of housing stock in many cities these days.

Though really it does depend on how much space there is around the apartment blocks (and how high they are). Hägerstensåsen, a typical outer suburban area built in that style has a density of 7,285 people per sq km. Not shabby and fairly typical of this kind of district in Stockholm.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 07:58 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
I'm sorry but this is going well off-topic. If more density = less suicides then Japan would not be so high for suicides and Australians would be killing themselves far more than they are. As for less impact on the climate - have you seen just how much CO2 per capita is produced by the UK relative to the Nordics? Most Nordic countries use far more "clean" sources of energy than the UK for energy production, which has a lot of thermal power plants (whilst the Nordics use a lot of hydroelectric power and nuclear in Finland and Sweden). Couple that with the fact that most heating is provided by gas central heating in the UK, compared to the extensive use of combustable waste district heating in the Nordics, one can see that there is a massive difference on this front too.
Well, per capita, UK is more environmentally friendly than us in the north. I don't know anyone that wastes as much as we do in water, electricity, gas and regular trash. We live like Hollywood celebrities up here, more or less. We have to stop doing that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Secondly, as for gay friendliness, that is an odd comment. Legislation wise, Denmark, Norway and Sweden have all approved same-sex marriage, and Svenska Kyrkan approves same-sex marriage in their churches (and voted overwhelmingly to do so). In the UK there is the same conservative rural area vs. more open urban area as there is in Nordic countries too - I think this is mostly true across the world in fact.
Vertical approval doesn't mean anything. It's horizontal approval that matters. You can still be taunted, sneered and killed for being gay here up in the Nordics. Finland is a good example of that. When I'm in a small dense town like Matlock up in Peak District, where my sister lives with her husband, I feel far more liberated than in I am Sweden. The rich dense environment welcomes my flaming personality, GUUURL.
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Old July 21st, 2013, 08:07 PM   #36
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Hammarby Sjöstad seems to be a nice recent development:


http://www.intechopen.com/source/htm...ia/image6.jpeg
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Old July 21st, 2013, 08:09 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemanic View Post
Well, per capita, UK is more environmentally friendly than us in the north. I don't know anyone that wastes as much as we do in water, electricity, gas and regular trash. We live like Hollywood celebrities up here, more or less. We have to stop doing that.
Use doesn't necessarily mean that we're worse. Very little of our electricity is from thermal sources in the Nordics. In the UK, it is the majority, not the minority that comes from gas or coal fired power plants. Therefore, even if we use more electricity, we are still getting the majority of our electricity from renewable sources, and therefore, still have a smaller carbon footprint per capita than the UK. That isn't that hard to understand.

As for rubbish processing - it has been shown that sending rubbish to landfill actually results in a greater level of greenhouse release over its decay period than burning it. Therefore, burning the rubbish to generate heat for heating and hot water is FAR, and I repeat, FAR more environmentally friendly than using natural gas like the UK, there is no comparison. Couple that with the fact that we have one of the highest rates of recycling in the EU (compared to the UK which is near bottom) and we landfill a minimum amount of our trash, even if we produce more rubbish, we are still dealing with it in a more sustainable manner, and therefore again, the footprint is lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemanic View Post
Vertical approval doesn't mean anything. It's horizontal approval that matters. You can still be taunted, sneered and killed for being gay here up in the Nordics. Finland is a good example of that. When I'm in a small dense town like Matlock up in Peak District, where my sister lives with her husband, I feel far more liberated than in I am Sweden. The rich dense environment welcomes my flaming personality, GUUURL.
Killed for being gay? I have yet to see any recent news about that here. I find that also quite unlikely here in Sweden. I'm glad you're happy in the UK and accepted, but I can tell you quite categorically from the experience of my gay friends in the midlands that this is not the norm, certainly for those who are effeminate or affected in any way.

PS: Matlock is dense?!?! Far from it...
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Old July 21st, 2013, 08:48 PM   #38
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Since this have been transformed into a general "lets brag about the Nordics"-tread rather one with Finland as speciality, then I have to say that there are two things I genuinely like about cities here in Norway and which I think we are better than many places elsewhere:

1. Even cities located in the most "boring" parts of the country nature-wise are still surrounded by large hills, mountains and/or archipelagos. You will hardly find a town or a city located without some relatively dramatic and distinctive natural features.

Example:

Halden, located in the flattest part of the country and right next to Sweden:

http://www.halden.kommune.no/organis.../Rådgiver.aspx

... And Ålesund, located on the completely opposite side of the country and towards the north sea:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alesund_2.jpg


2. The absolute best of our modern buildings are seriously good. Sadly the worst are seriously bad to compensate.

Example:

Kilden opera house in Kristiansand:

http://www.huftonandcrow.com/project...g-arts-centre/

Modern apartment building at Tjuvholmen, Oslo:

http://www.tomaszmajewski.no/
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Old July 21st, 2013, 09:06 PM   #39
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I'd say exaggerations are often wrong.. it's true that Nordic cities have their pluses in the planning which I really admire, but there's also problems like everywhere else, like sprawl (which is quite pervasive for European standards) and car dependency; also, as already said, they are a bit "dead" sometimes, and the architecture a bit stale outside of the center.. Seen from satellite, I'd say especially Finnish cities are not exactly perfect, there is lot of sprawl taking large chunk of forests (as well by the timber producers) like I haven't seen everywhere else in Europe
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Old July 21st, 2013, 10:30 PM   #40
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UK does have sprawl, but it's not as bad as those in Scandavania. I personally think UK cities are more interesting than Scandinavia cities despite the poor urban choices.
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