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Old October 27th, 2005, 09:39 PM   #1
crazyjoeda
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Port Mann Bridge Twinning Plan Delayed

Port Mann Bridge twinning plan delayed
By Jeff Nagel Black Press
Oct 26 2005

It could be weeks, even months yet before the region gets a look at the province's detailed vision for twinning the Port Mann Bridge and a big stretch of Highway 1.
The long-awaited project definition report - previously promised earlier this fall -will now take longer, Gateway officials told chamber of commerce representatives from around the region at an Oct. 20 briefing in Surrey.
"It will be later this year," said Gateway executive director Mike Proudfoot. "It's just the volume of technical work we're doing, putting it all together and finalizing some of the details."
The one certain thing, he said, is the twinned bridge won't be open by 2010.
"It would take five years of construction from the time the project is awarded," he said.
The Port Mann, and other Gateway projects such as the South Fraser Perimeter Road, depend heavily on both financing and gaining environmental approval, Proudfoot said.
The project definition report, when issued, is expected to detail a series of measures for the bridge and highway twinning to ensure better movement of trucks, high-occupancy vehicles and buses.
Under consideration are tolls, more HOV or truck-only lanes, and special lanes to allow buses to jump past congestion.
Those and other measures are promised as an answer to critics who argue the twinning will be a failed effort to build out of congestion.
Business leaders also questioned the usefulness of cycling routes promised for some of the major corridors.
Proudfoot said most of the major roadways, including the South Fraser Perimeter Road and twinned Hwy. 1, will designate the road shoulder for cycling -meaning riders won't be separated from traffic.
Some of the regional chamber reps said heavy trucks rolling by will deter all but the hardiest cyclists.
They also urged the province to accelerate long-range plans to deal with congestion at the Massey Tunnel and consider improvements to 16 Avenue.
Surrey chamber president Peter Holt said it could be the ideal route for a needed new east-west connector that would run from near the Abbotsford Airport - where increased industrial and commercial development is expected -through Langley and Surrey to Delta, with connections to Highways 99 and 15.
Holt said the South Fraser Perimeter Road remains the top transportation priority for business leaders.
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Old October 28th, 2005, 08:12 AM   #2
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F*ck, build the damn thing.
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Old October 28th, 2005, 04:32 PM   #3
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I like the idea of improvements to 16, maybe a 407esqe toll highway? People would use it.... Right now it is this narrow two lane road with lots of trucks moving very fast surrounded by low dens residential (hobby farms) and a couple of chicken barns....
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Old October 28th, 2005, 06:13 PM   #4
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The problem with toll roads is once they are fully paid they never will take off the toll. Interior residents can tell ya all about it with the Coquihala which was totally paid for 5 years ago.
I don't agree with building roads as they do just lead to sprawl but there are always exception. The SouthPerimeter {which probably the least contentious} will definatly go ahead so trucks can get to the DeltaPort.
I must admit though, I strongly support the PortMann/HWY#1 twinning. It is a very busy road and at the JohnsonHill a downright dangerous one.
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Old October 28th, 2005, 07:07 PM   #5
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i really hope it goes through. the lower mainland really needs this.
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Old October 28th, 2005, 08:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
The problem with toll roads is once they are fully paid they never will take off the toll. Interior residents can tell ya all about it with the Coquihala which was totally paid for 5 years ago.
Infrustructure is never totally paid for. There is maintenance and oporations costs that are constant. Regarding the Coquihala, the facility is 20 years old and will require substancial investment to keep it in good condition. Perhaps the toll could be reduced to reflect the maintenance costs. If you want to avoid the toll simply take highway 1 up the fraser canyon, you will experience a slightly longer travel time however there are fewer adverse grades and therefore the fuel savings can be quite substancial.

I am glad that they are taking their time with the Port Mann project, this is the last major project that this cooridor will be able to sustain in the forseeable future and therefore all options should be considered to allow for all future projects in the cooridor. Planning is a lot cheaper than physical construction. This is generally why construction tends to be low bid while design is competitive bid (cost isn't major determinant).
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Old October 29th, 2005, 12:19 AM   #7
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They better not put tolls on it. We pay enough taxes.
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Old October 29th, 2005, 12:48 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyjoeda
They better not put tolls on it. We pay enough taxes.
if they tolled it, the congestion problem would be solved; we wouldn't have to twin the bridge.
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Old October 29th, 2005, 01:45 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
if they tolled it, the congestion problem would be solved; we wouldn't have to twin the bridge.
Yes, but they would just be putting more pressure on alternate routes that are congested enough as is.
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Old October 29th, 2005, 02:51 AM   #10
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Yes, but they would just be putting more pressure on alternate routes that are congested enough as is.
then toll every bridge back east. i'm sure there will be a huge jump in demand fro transit.
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Old October 29th, 2005, 09:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyjoeda
They better not put tolls on it. We pay enough taxes.
you mean, "They better put tolls on it. We pay enough taxes." I don't want to have to pay for surrey's auto-commuting fatties. When you go to your local rec center, it's not free. If it were, everyone would pay more taxes. The bus isn't free. While I advocate free walking, why not nail people on the bridges? If it makes people less willing to cross water, people will stop crossing the moat. Besides, the new golden ears bridge will have a toll. Does maple ridge vote less than surrey? I don't have any faith there will be a toll though; it's political seppuku.
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Old November 1st, 2005, 10:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssiguy2
The problem with toll roads is once they are fully paid they never will take off the toll. Interior residents can tell ya all about it with the Coquihala which was totally paid for 5 years ago.
I don't agree with building roads as they do just lead to sprawl but there are always exception. The SouthPerimeter {which probably the least contentious} will definatly go ahead so trucks can get to the DeltaPort.
I must admit though, I strongly support the PortMann/HWY#1 twinning. It is a very busy road and at the JohnsonHill a downright dangerous one.
Didn't the Pattullo Bridge originally have a toll? To me, tolling is really the only way of semi-justifying building more highway capacity. If people want a luxury service like freeway driving, they should have to pay extra. If not, everyone suffers because the freeways will be clogged very quickly. I'd rather pay a toll to get where I was going in a timely manner, than be stuck in pseudo-free congestion.
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Old November 1st, 2005, 10:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
then toll every bridge back east. i'm sure there will be a huge jump in demand fro transit.
So punish people because they just happen to live south of the Fraser River?

We have 2.5 million people and only 2 highways (#99 and #1) and both of those are 2lanes plus an on and off HOV lane. It is so stupid, it takes an hour and a half to get from Burnaby to Surrey during rush hour. Do we live in a third world country??
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Old November 1st, 2005, 11:12 PM   #14
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^ It isn't punishing people, it's only making them financially responsible for what their lifestyle really costs. Like it or not, having a major travel impediment (like a large river) between you and your place of work, business, etc. creates extra cost. Why should someone who doesn't live there pay that cost for them.

I agree that extra capacity is probably need, but it also needs to be carefully controlled.
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Old November 2nd, 2005, 08:43 AM   #15
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^So because Vancouvers geography has rivers, inlets and other bodys of water we should have to pay tolls? Toronto has 16 lane highways with no tolls how is that fair?

Another question is why should the Port Mann be tolled when the Second Narrows Bridge to North and West Vancouver has 6 lanes and is part of the same highway. Its absolutely rediculace to expect people to pay tolls on the Trans-Canada highway.
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Old November 2nd, 2005, 09:35 AM   #16
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yes, but how much container traffic goes through the Second Narrows compaired to the Port Mann? and don't forget, the Port Mann is Western Canada's busiest and most congested highway. the Port Mann, unlike other bridges, is the gateway to Canada.

the Port Mann, after being twinned, will most likely be tolled. it's fair to have it tolled to control car usage. do we really want to create a culture that centres around automobiles?


if i'm not mistaken, the one road out and in of Hong Kong has always been tolled.
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Old November 2nd, 2005, 10:18 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyjoeda
^So because Vancouvers geography has rivers, inlets and other bodys of water we should have to pay tolls? Toronto has 16 lane highways with no tolls how is that fair?

Another question is why should the Port Mann be tolled when the Second Narrows Bridge to North and West Vancouver has 6 lanes and is part of the same highway. Its absolutely rediculace to expect people to pay tolls on the Trans-Canada highway.
I don't see what "fairness" has to do with anything . This is strictly about facing reality. To pretend that two things cost the same that actually don't isn't realistic urban planning, and doesn't reflect the demands of natural market forces.

Besides, places that have a more interesting natural setting have plenty of advantages as it is. Vancouver has mountains, ocean, a large river and a mild climate, of which can be easily enjoied by its residents. All Toronto has is a lake. How is that fair? I don't see why Vancouverites should whine and moan about the few drawbacks their setting brings. Inalterable realities simply must be accepted. Fairness is unfortunately not a factor.

As far as the second narrows bridge, its need to be tolled is lower since there isn't much capacity on the N. Shore for population sprawl, and because it isn't as crucial to keep that route clear of congestion since it isn't as important an entry/exit point for the metro area.

Oh, and people already pay tolls on parts of the Trans Canada here in the Maritimes. There is a toll section in NS and one in NB. At least, I think there's still one on a NB section. There was some complaining about it in the past, but I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about the section in NS.

Last edited by Nouvellecosse; November 2nd, 2005 at 10:24 AM.
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Old November 2nd, 2005, 03:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.x
yes, but how much container traffic goes through the Second Narrows compaired to the Port Mann? and don't forget, the Port Mann is Western Canada's busiest and most congested highway. the Port Mann, unlike other bridges, is the gateway to Canada.

the Port Mann, after being twinned, will most likely be tolled. it's fair to have it tolled to control car usage. do we really want to create a culture that centres around automobiles?


if i'm not mistaken, the one road out and in of Hong Kong has always been tolled.
Many more trucks use the Port Mann bridge; and many more people live in Surrey and the Fraser Valley. I don't see tolls being put on the Port Mann, people just won't stand for it.
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Old November 3rd, 2005, 03:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyjoeda
Many more trucks use the Port Mann bridge; and many more people live in Surrey and the Fraser Valley. I don't see tolls being put on the Port Mann, people just won't stand for it.
exactly my point. the Port Mann has a lot more container traffic (or commercial traffic anyway). in other cities, they don't use their national highway to such a high extent as Vancouver for inter-urban transport use. the bridge is the busiest and most congested in Western Canada.

simply twinning the bridge isn't the solution unless you want more urban sprawl. there must be restrictions on bridge use.

people won't stand for it? well then, maybe people simply don't know what's good for their region. it's called urban planning. it's the same thing with Cambie street merchants complaining about RAV. the line is for the future good of the region.

there's no such thing as absolute freedom in the world. that's not how the world works.
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Old November 3rd, 2005, 04:35 AM   #20
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But if you're going to toll, why toll so far from the core?
Why not charge a congestion charge to enter the downtown (except on transit).
A toll that far our really punishes the people that moved out there because of affordability.
You need to toll the people closer to the core who have a viable transit alternative, but choose not to use it.
Of course, the problem with that is that the downtown core isn't the hub of jobs as it is in other regions, so you'd miss all the suburb to suburb commuters.
So how about both?
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