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Atlantic Union

14K views 78 replies 17 participants last post by  Yellow Fever 
#1 ·
I've read about a Maritime Union, that was discussed about before confederation, and then later on afterwards, but all that came out of it was the conglomeration of certain boards, and commitees. Later on Newfoundland was included in alot of those, hence us now having the Council of Atlantic Premiers.

What I'm throwing on to here is what about a Unified Atlantic Province? I've been thinking alot about this, esspecially now living in New Brunswick. The world is shrinking, and in a country as big as ours, it kind of makes sense to consolidate our resources to make us more competetive.

The first problem that came to mind would be the capital. Most (or just NS) would say Halifax, others (or just NB) would say Moncton. As well any capital on the mainland would alientate both PEI and Nfld. What about a rotating Capital? It would change every leap year, in sync with the elections.


It's a possible idea, but is it plausable? It could mean big things for everybody on Canada's forgotten coast.
 
#36 ·
Urbanization, however, is not an issue that would give one city the nod over the other in terms of where the capital is. Just look at most states in the US, and 4 out of 10 provinces in Canada as well as the national capitals themselves, they are not the most urban nor largest cities in the state/province/country. Yes, Halifax has already been established as the capital for 950,000 people, but if the maritimes unified, it would probably be best and most democratically acceptable to choose a new government capital which was not an original capital in either of the three provinces, regardless of where the economic or urban capitals are.
 
#38 ·
The new province would probably have to be bilingual too. It might be an inconvence at first but it also might give the region more of a competitive edge.
 
#43 ·
The notion of Halifax being the capitol (that's how I noticed they spelt it in the papers) would repel NB and PEI becaue it would look like NS trying to control. I didn't know there was an Acadien Congress, but the idea of the UMP being bi-lingual would be obvious and cool. Plus it would kick Quebec in the rump, and possibly Manitoba as well. The other throbbing point that kept me up when I posted this thread was it would give us a bloc in Parliment. Sadly Ottawa has become a boxing ring instead of a round table, and with us constantly bickering, and stapping at each other, we are falling behind in the big scheme of things.
 
#44 ·
To my mind a political union is misguided. There are just too many obstacles to overcome to make it work. That said, there is still room for cooperation. The provinces need to seriously think about an economic agreement that would help each area build on its strengths; Halifax - finance & international shipping, Moncton - logistics and manufacturing, Fredericton - education and research, Saint John and Cape Breton - energy and industry. All Maritimers lose when government engages in bidding wars to lure prospective companies to their region. Halifax searching for an oil company to build a refinery and Moncton offering incentives to Molson for a few dozen jobs are prime examples of this lack of vision.

I've also never understood why the respective governments don't pool their resources to market tourism. Combined the three provinces would have enough funds to tap into new NA and Asian markets.
 
#45 ·
TR, I need to meet you and get drunk, because I've been saying that for years. Why does Moncton constantly feel like it can/has to compete with everyother city in the region? Part of it is pride I guess, on all fronts. The idea of Union would be long term, it was to start with more fluid co-operation, and calibrating of resources, and ideas. How could we start this? I'm serious, I'm not sure if anybody else is, but this really is the best possible future for our region and our kids because as long as we stay devided we're ridding kiddie cart with the rest of the country.
 
#46 ·
I am actually serious about being in favour of this union as well. And the middle-aged generation currently in power won't be the driving force behind this. In order for this union to become a reality in the future (which is the future of most if not all of us in this discussion, being the "younger" generation) than we have to be the driving force behind it if we're in favour. Discussing on this forum is a good start (between the members and the lurkers reading), but obviously it has to be brought to the forefront of real (ie- nonforum) life as well if it's going to happen.

On an unrelated note, Reddog, where in New Brunswick are you? I have a feeling we need to get drunk together. :cheers:
 
#47 ·
The idea of a united maritime province has been coming up again and again. In fact the orginal confederation meeting in Charlottown(1864) was intended to be about Maritime Union. To bad John A McDonald and his upper/lower Canadian henchmen decided to show up! :D

I found one article about it here and it also proposes some ideas about regional intergration: http://www.parl.gc.ca/Infoparl/english/issue.htm?param=87&art=319

We could make a website and forum to help bring together people who are interested in the idea. Perhaps that is the first step?
 
#49 · (Edited)
Wow, this thread is getting so much attention, you Maritimers must really like the idea(?). Similarly to this, I recently read an article by a Newfoundland columnist which suggested that Newfoundland might consider joining Quebec, as it would make more geographical sense than joining the Maritimes - any thoughts on this? As an ex-pat Nflder, I could see the Maritime union happening, and potentially even to include Nfld. too would be not be completely absurd, with a population figure around 2.3 mil.

Here's a link to the follow-up article:
http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=1146&sc=5
 
#50 ·
I love the idea of the united maritime province. :)

Newfoundland joining Quebec? hmm I dont know. It would be interesting, but I have always imagined NFLD to be too independent minded to join with the Maritimes or another province. The being said, if they wanted to join the new province I wouldnt be opposed to it.
 
#51 ·
Saint John Smevo, and I'm serious about this idea. Confederation wan't a bad thing... just too soon. Had we joined after the re-union of the Maritimes, it would have ben alot different. I know as much about web design, as I do about Pre-European influenced African history, nothing save theres alot I don't know. The Universities and Community Colleges are where we need to strike the match under this topic. Who knows how to design a hot web-site... better than the commonwealth games website. As well a list of the up and comers in the political world at this end of the country would be clutch.

Who else is with me about getting this idea up to public view?
my email is clifford.morrison@gmail.com contact me please if you're as serious about this as I am.
 
#52 ·
Interesting topic, always worth investigation – much like Quebec sovereignty – but I think there would be a real issue of where to direct growth. There is only limited development in all three provinces and you would have to make some tough decisions. It’s similar, although on a different scale, to the proposal in Cape Breton a few years ago to direct most of the money into Sydney as a way to improve the economy. It didn’t go over too well in North Sydney, Sydney mines, Glace Bay, New Waterford and other areas on the periphery. The idea itself was a good one, and could have possibly made a difference, but it is difficult to convince everyone or enough of them at least.

I also think, although I don’t know much about the issue, that Nova Scotia’s energy potential as well as population plays a role in its position in such a union. You cannot ignore the fact that it would be contributing more than its fair share to any political and economic union. It also has the best ties with NFLD and any future partnerships, energy or otherwise.

Again, it is always a good topic for discussion. How to take it to the next step – no one seems to know!
 
#53 ·
The problem is that a lot of people in the Maritimes see the government as some entity that is there to hand out goodies. That is why people get caught up on "where to direct growth". Unfortunately, that is also why governments in this region have such huge debts.

It's not necessary for the government to direct growth. They just need to collect taxes and provide services proportional to the population areas they serve. Lower taxes would attract some companies and allow existing companies to grow, and they would choose the locations that they found ideal.

If the three Maritime provinces merged then cut back on redundant spending and reduced taxes overall I think we'd see pretty major changes, although the big winners would be the areas that are already doing well. A lot of people have a problem with that but there's not much of an alternative.
 
#55 ·
oh Haligonian, its always so simple to you. Let business and the market decide. Ignoring the poitical environment will never result in progress. And to work within it and manipulate it you must first understand it. The goverment is there to make handouts - education, healthcare, etc. from taxes it collects. Sure they're ways that would make the process more efficient, but in the end government is an enabler for what else can happen and a provider for those who cannot help themselves. This is what we are dealing with and its about how to make such a system function better.

Lower taxes is not as easy as it sounds, and has benefits and consequences. The problem is that the benefits, in an economy like the one that exists in the maritimes, are not immediately visable.
 
#58 ·
@ Reddog - ah, I thought you might be in Fredericton. Oh well, I'll hit you up when I'm in Saint John next later this year. I'll be emailing you in the next day or two throwing my support behind this. Unfortunately, I'm not as web-design savvy as this would need.

@ planarchy - hopefully the new government would have the foresight to advertise the advantages of each region to prospective companies, or to help each region advertise itself is what I should say. Focusing on one city as the powerhouse may seem healthy, but it just creates an unhealthy boom in one city which causes a painful bust later, and it hurts the province as a whole most times. Look at Alberta, as an example. Obviously the oil extraction companies are going to set up where the oil is, but the growth in Alberta is not limited to just Edmonton nor just Calgary, nor is it limited to simply those two cities.

Similarly, each "region" in "Acadia" would have it's own strengths and weaknesses, and each region could exploit those strengths. For examples, Halifax's region would obviously use it's population and economic capital role as an advantage; Cape Breton its natural resources, tourism, and currently unemployed skilled labourers as its advantage; Saint John its refining/processing industry, access to the coast and location relative to the US as an advantage; Moncton its IT industry; PEI its agriculture; Northern and central New Brunswick its lumber and bilingual workforce; etc etc.

@ Joey - it's a capital thing, people hate them, but it does seem to be worse when the capital is also the largest and most dominant city in the province.

PS @ planarchy, your mention of the Sydney vs neighbouring towns issue makes me ask you if I'm no longer the only Caper on this board?
 
#59 ·
Smevo,

yes I am from Cape Breton, but have lived in halifax for the past 6 years. I have been in Europe since September for a graduate studies program. If you want some inspiration as to what a planning department, when given enough power, can accomplish visit Amsterdam's planning department (Vancouver too I suppose)..wow...nothing is immpossible for these guys..for a city who's population has remained around 700,000 for the last 20 years or so, they are doing extraordinary things.
 
#60 ·
The idea of regions for the UMP is interesting because yo could break the regions up so it directs the growth towards the urban areas. ie Cape Breton into 3 regions, one in the NE, with CBRM as the focus, SE to help Port Hawksbury aka where my family's from, and the like with the rest of the UMP. It would help with softening the regional barriers. Sure it would create a bit of tension in some areas, but in the long run, it would streamline, and focus where we need foucsing. We wouldn't have senarios where the provincial government is spreading money out thinly, so it can build a conventions centre in all 4 of it's major cities (friggin NB...). Not to down in the province, because it's got alot of potential, bu that's just not logical at this point.

One point though, that was brought up, when I was talking with some students, was The Irvings... aka the Barons of New Brunswick. They would lose their marquee position, and have to sit at the same height of table, as the other big money in the area. Am I right or wrong? Is this really a problem, or should I stop looking over my shoulder?

@Smevo dope man, if you ever hit up Serf City, let me know, and like wise with me in Fred and Erics town.

@planarchy How so? What are some of the things they are doing to make it so efficiant? I'm curious... very curious.
 
#61 ·
I think it is important to bring atleast one city up to "critical mass" where development begins to snowball.

The Irvings would be an unknown variable. They really own New Brunswick and they might lose some power in a larger province, but they would still be a significant force.
 
#62 ·
Pfft, if the Irvings complain, tell them to take their (personal salary) money out of overseas banks and start paying taxes to Canada on them, since we did make them as rich as they are. :nuts: I would doubt they'd like sitting at a similar height with the Sobeys now being in the same province, they're already used to the McCains though.
 
#63 ·
Perhaps Nova Scotia should follow its motto "Munit Haec et Altera Vincit.( One defends and the other conquers)" and CONQUER New Brunswick and PEI! :lol: :nuts:
 
#64 ·
I'm curious if anybody here is serious about supporting this idea? I am, and am in the process of setting up a blog. I'm not sure what to start the blog with, and if anybody has some ideas and pointers, please contact me, or post them. I want a better maritimes, not one that's constantly having it economy subsidised by Ottawa. The time for us catching the scraps, and fighting over them is up.
 
#65 ·
Maybe start the blog off simply with some facts and issues concerning the union of the provinces. eg, population and land area of the new province, compare that to other provinces (eg new rank for population and population desity among the provinces). Also that a united effort to attract business and lobby government would benefit the area more than the three provinces putting the effort in for their own little piece of the pie, and some of the other things like that. I'd probably mention that there'd have to be a new capital chosen, but I'd stay away from throwing out ideas of where that would be. Also mention the structure of the regions and that an initial mandate of the union would be to aid each region attract business by advertising the region's strengths or something like that.

Obviously we want this to sound official, because we don't want people to think we're just a bunch of university students throwing out an idea just for the sake of causing a stir.

Anyone agree or disagree? Any other ideas?
 
#66 ·
The competition

Here's the movement I was referring to in an earlier post, though they don't mention the CBLP (Cape Breton Liberation Party) specifically, it's their remnants that are behind this.

Cape Breton Post.
Thursday, January 11, 2007

C.B. Island Provincehood Campaign begins

By By Laura Jean Grant
the Cape Breton Post

BADDECK — No subject was off-limits at the inaugural meeting of the Cape Breton Island Provincehood Campaign.

A dozen people gathered at the Baddeck Community Centre Wednesday evening where strip mining concerns, the Constitution, fishing, Fort McMurray, Alta. — even the Turks and Caicos Islands — were among the topics discussed.

The idea of Cape Breton as a separate province has been brought forward numerous times in the island’s history and this latest campaign is being spearheaded by Mabou’s Mark Macneill.

Macneill chaired Wednesday’s meeting and said there will always be critics of the idea of Cape Breton as a province because they think it isn’t realistic. He said his role is to sound a wake-up call to Cape Bretoners that the notion is possible and added he’s in it for the long haul.

“My job is to educate. This is going to take awhile,” he said.

Macneill said a Cape Breton-based government would be more responsive and passionate about the issues facing the island.

Sharon MacLeod, a resident of Boularderie Island who spoke at the meeting about her concerns about strip mining, said change is needed because the provincial government isn’t listening to the people of Cape Breton.

“(I’m) shocked at the state of democracy in Cape Breton. There is none,” she said.

Prior to the meeting, Macneill said he was not discouraged by the small crowd, noting some people had passed along regrets that they couldn’t be at the meeting.
He said the Cape Breton Island Provincehood Campaign website, www.provinceofcapebreton.com, is generating lots of discussion and feedback.
 
#67 ·
Here's the movement I was referring to in an earlier post, though they don't mention the CBLP (Cape Breton Liberation Party) specifically, it's their remnants that are behind this.

Cape Breton Post.
That completely goes against the suggestions made on this board of an Atlantic Union. Cape Breton as its own province will only make the current situation worse...:eek:hno:
 
#68 ·
^exactly, I'm not in favour of this guy, but he is gaining support. His page isn't very professional looking at all, a simple well developed blog (like Reddog is making) with the right information should put this movement back into obscurity. Just wanted to post it so we knew what we were dealing with in the Cape Breton Region.
 
#69 · (Edited)
I am definitely serious. The maritimes are my home and I want to see it grow and prosper. Dividing the maritimes up into smaller provinces will not allow this to happen.

Keep us updated on your blog Reddog794. I think we all want to contribute in anyway we can.
 
#70 ·
After the blog get's set up, we should probably write an initial letter to the three provincial governments and the federal government, since this would need co-operation and possibly constitutional reform. Anybody good at writing official letters to governments?

Also, it might be a good idea to write an email or letter to Mr. MacNeil of the Cape Breton movement, to see if we can convince him that this is the better alternative, and to try to get him and his supporters on-side with us. That's something I could take care of after the blog is created.
 
#71 · (Edited)
As far as ground-roots support goes, I could try to set groups up on sites like facebook to raise awareness, gain support and refer people to the blog. I seem to be a pretty good advocate on facebook for home, there was no Sydney NS group on it, so I made one the other night and in 48 hours it's grown to 135 members, making it almost as big as the Cape Breton Island groups themselves which were created much longer ago.

I also know enough people on the mainland and the other two provinces to reach a lot of people with that sort of thing, plus I would invite anyone on this board into the network so it would reach your own networks. Anyway, when the blog link is posted I'll start on that.

Another thing we will probably need eventually is a petition (probably online) to prove this movement has enough support behind it. With something like that, we would need people to include their province at least beside their name, maybe also their city, so it's known that the support is not just within one or two areas of the maritimes. If we get enough helpers in each area, we may actually be able to hit the streets with the petition, mail it all (with copies) to one group of people to be collected, put together and presented to the national and provincial leaders. That's probably a bit down the road, but something to keep in mind and build the personal networks for anyway.
 
#72 · (Edited)
Group

Folks, I don't think you know the energy you've given me on this. I'm right now a. setting up a web designer for the site/blog. b. started the beginings of a group in Saint John, and when I get home to Halifax, the same thing.

This sounds silly, but I've been looking for something to fight for, something to throw myself at with all my vigour, and this is it. This is not for me, and my generation, this is for my kids, and their kids. I want to do this right, and set up a strong foundation for this. This isn't going to be just an idea that somebody read about, or thought was cool, this is a Movement.

I know We can get this ball bigger, it's already started rolling. It's still a small ball, but it's become a ball none the less. Let's keep it up. I'm doing everything I can to get this website going now, it's going to be the beginning of the foundation for information. That's what's going to be key in this, we need to educate folks on what this would do for everybody. Smevo you're right about the hard facts about what this would represent, as well as touch on the topic of Senate reform. That's going to be a huge topic in coming years.

Sorry to sound preachy, I just kind of got seriously inspired about this after reading those last few posts. Thanks guys/gals.

Cliff
 
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