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Greater Manchester Transport Projects Transport Matters For Greater Manchester and Surrounding Areas



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Old July 19th, 2006, 12:51 AM   #1
TheGrand
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Piccadilly To Victoria Direct Rail Link | Ordsall Curve

Just 20 yards of track over at Castlefield and Manchester's 5 Train Stations are all linked. Surely worth the GMPTE and Network Rail getting this sorted, makes so much sense for greater transport intergration, good for tourism and for business.

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Old July 19th, 2006, 01:04 AM   #2
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I like the idea
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Old July 19th, 2006, 08:36 AM   #3
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Rebuild the small section at sportcity too and you have a complete circle around the city centre. We could run S-bahn services from Bolton/Rochdale/Stoke/Northwich/Wigan/Stalybridge/Airport etc etc into the city and around the curve, each route could be colour coded and hey presto we have a rail network on a par with Berlin. It wouldnt even take that much work, why arent GMPTE more ambitious
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Old July 19th, 2006, 11:49 AM   #4
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Is it not a money proplem rather than lact of ambition? We've all seen the kuffell over metro link. manchester having an S-bahn aswel as metrolink would indeed make a lot of sense but GMPTE and other bodies hands are tied tightly by short-sited, london centric government!
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Old July 19th, 2006, 02:45 PM   #5
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Shame that this would have been a reality for years if Railtrack hadnít been ďcollapsedĒ. I wonder why network rail hasnít seen it as the same priority, especially when was all ready to be built. Wasnít the intention to run all Yorkshire-airport trains around the curve so they didnít get held up crossing past the London line at Picc, and supposedly would have taken in Ox Rd, Deansgate, Salford and Vic, and still done the journey faster. Capacity on the Picc 13/14 platforms and across the Oxford Rd viaduct might be the problem, although to the untrained eye it never looks to be chocka block.

Iíve also often thought about it turning into a loop at Sportcity, would be great for giving people a choice on match days, but other than that I guess it would be pretty dead, being that little bit too far out of town. Would be amazing for regeneration though.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 05:26 PM   #6
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Could this ever really happen? Anybody know the real reason why it's not there now?? hmmmmm hmmmmmm?
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Old July 19th, 2006, 06:02 PM   #7
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Well I donít know why its not there in the first place, probably the Beeching cuts in the 60ís, but it really was about to be constructed before Railtrack metamorphosised into Network Rail a couple of years ago; and all their not as yet started schemes were scraped. The loop back around Sportcity has to my knowledge has never been muted as being opened to passengers, just seems a logical next step to make a circle of the city.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 06:09 PM   #8
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All Airport trains over to Yorkshire and The North East can use the curve, as could all electrified south Manchester trains that at present terminate at Deansgate, and then scurry round to Trafford Park to wait there for abit for the return journey.

Another potential good idea might be to build a new station over in the Green Quarter, serving the Quarter as well as Ludgate Hill, nothing massive maybe only 1 platform using the existing Red Bank viaduct. This will free up room at Victoria from the hassle of terminating trains.

For me, transport is one of the most effective ways of making an area flourish. Ludgate Hill/Green Quarter, as well as Sport City/New Islington, are the future of City Centre living, but granted Sport City will have the metro quite soon.

If the GMPTE were given greater control, instead of Network Rail and the Department of Transport, I believe the way ahead would be numbered/colour co-ordinated lines similar to those on Parisís suburban lines right across the Greater Manchester Network, with regular services to encourage travel. Trains should not just be about cross country travel, but also cross city.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 06:20 PM   #9
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Can someone show a map of the curve as i can not picture it. Please.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 11:14 PM   #10
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Give it a few years and the 'Powers That Be' will soon be realising what a real GEM our rail network is... Metrolink is great but wow, what an untapped resource GMPTE have at their fingertips in our under-invested, often over-looked local rail network! It's only the past few weeks I've realised how good it is, and how much better it could be as I've had to use the train to get to work from Lower Broughton (from Salford Cresent) to Wythenshawe (Heald Green) each day. Build a few more stations on the line and a few extensions into the suburbs here and there (they did it for the Airport didn't they?!) we really could have an amazing local transport grid to rival other european cities. Heck, the private sector could do it seeing as they effectivley 'own' the damn network and the trains now.
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Old July 19th, 2006, 11:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Architecty
Well I donít know why its not there in the first place, probably the Beeching cuts in the 60ís, but it really was about to be constructed before Railtrack metamorphosised into Network Rail a couple of years ago; and all their not as yet started schemes were scraped. The loop back around Sportcity has to my knowledge has never been muted as being opened to passengers, just seems a logical next step to make a circle of the city.
The disused curve (viaduct) from Sportcity to Piccadilly could be used to route trains from victoria round to piccadilly avoiding deansgate viaduct but the journey time would be pretty excessive, probably on a par with walking if not longer! A full loop (i.e crossing over to P13&14 and the deansgate viaduct) would knacker an already congested station throat. I'd expect a flyover at Ardwick part funded by Northern Way before any city centre loop.

The Ashburys curve linking Park to the north and Ashburys to the south is presently only used by freight, however the route does form one of the options for tram-train metrolink services from Marple to Manchester. However this option is likely to require a flyover to avoid conflict with the TPE main line from Guide Bridge. It seems the lower cost option would be to link in to the Ashton metrolink line and route to Piccadilly not Victoria. but that's another story!

The castlefield curve is the key missing link, electric services from south manchester which terminate at deansgate could utilise the castefield curve and route via the soon to be provided new platforms at Salford Central (serving Spinningfields) before terminating at Victoria (using the former Exchange Station site for a west facing terminus platform) thereby serving a much greater cathment in the city centre. A logical first step?
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Old July 19th, 2006, 11:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil
Can someone show a map of the curve as i can not picture it. Please.
After battling with multimap and googlemap i have no joy but if you imagine Water Street where the SAAB garage is, looking towards Granada, there is railway viaduct in front of you which is the line coming out of Piccadilly/ Oxford road.
Walk under the bridge and look to your left. Over the river you can see a very long railway viaduct heading out of Victoria/ Salford.
Now imagine a short line linking the Piccadilly line behind you curving to join with the Vic line to you left.
Any clearer?
Thought not!

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&t=...02912,0.006126
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Old July 20th, 2006, 12:34 AM   #13
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Same image as Longford, but put an illustrative line on it with the pedometer, handy site that, great for working out the shortest route to walk to work !

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=307618

If you pan it up a bit roughly where east ordsal lane crosses the tracks to the crescent is where a new station has been suggested by Salford to serve middlewood locks, although this was more in vogue when this was a proposed media zone.

On reflection whatís really needed is for all the freight coming/going to Trafford park to go along the chappel st viaduct so that capacity can be freed up on the Oxford Rd viaduct to allow these expanded passenger services. That though, would require a significant new link somewhere in castlefield, that having a quick pan around there really is no room for. Does seem that capacity is the issue; have read a lot in the past about plans for stacking a second viaduct ontop of the Ox Rd one, but was dismissed as impractical/silly money.

Its those vital links that were severed in the 60ís, like the fallowfield loop, that would totally cut out faffling about with viaducts for freight, that will haunt us forever.

Super cheap, nanite dug, carbon crystal lined, year 2689 tunnelling methods anyone?
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Old July 20th, 2006, 03:00 PM   #14
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can't they just signal the Oxford Rd Viaduct in both directions on each line. Or have they already done that.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 04:11 PM   #15
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Loads of great ideas on here lads. We should invade whoever it is that needs invading and rule the Republic of Mancunia as our own.

Ps, speaking of curves/loops, all the same thing.

The Fallowfield loop...as much as i love dodging scallys on my racer to chorlton and back, wouldn't the loop be an obvious oppurtunity to ferry our 50,000 students to and fro and one of these...?



The disused track goes straight up to the Alty line does it not?
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Old July 20th, 2006, 05:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Longford
After battling with multimap and googlemap i have no joy but if you imagine Water Street where the SAAB garage is, looking towards Granada, there is railway viaduct in front of you which is the line coming out of Piccadilly/ Oxford road.
Walk under the bridge and look to your left. Over the river you can see a very long railway viaduct heading out of Victoria/ Salford.
Now imagine a short line linking the Piccadilly line behind you curving to join with the Vic line to you left.
Any clearer?
Thought not!

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&t=...02912,0.006126
Thanks Longford.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 05:45 PM   #17
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I think the bottom half of the Fallowfield Loop line is going to be used for Metrolink but the top half (where Sainsbury's and Bar XS occupy the former Fallowfield Station) is can't be used again as it's been built over and in-filled so much, I could be wrong though....

There was a serious proposal to take Metrolink out to Marple?... Any more info on this?
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Old July 20th, 2006, 06:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacepostman
I think the bottom half of the Fallowfield Loop line is going to be used for Metrolink but the top half (where Sainsbury's and Bar XS occupy the former Fallowfield Station) is can't be used again as it's been built over and in-filled so much, I could be wrong though....
You are absolutely right, thatís why I said its severed. The Sainsburyís, The Opal flats over the road, and several generic housing/flat developments towards Chorlton have made the Fallowfield loop a permanent thing of the past. The section of road outside the old station IS the old bridge over the tracks.

These developments also have one thing in common, they were only built in the last few years, the supermarket bar far the oldest and that was only finished in (I think 1999), the houses and flats are all in the last 2/3 years. Its an absolute miracle that the section through Chorlton and Didsbury had protected status and can be returned to use. The same thing has happened up and down the country; one of the problems with building any new high speed rail lines isnít that the Victorian engineers didnít leave enough spare land, its that it was all sold off in the 80/90ís.

Dual signalling on Ox Rd viaduct, I donít know about, but again the problem then is the limited capacity at plat 13/14 in Picc. Just watch the muppets sell off Mayfield at some point, and destroy the solution.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 09:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacepostman
There was a serious proposal to take Metrolink out to Marple?... Any more info on this?
I assume there still is and to other places as well. I'll try and find a copy of the Greater Manchester Strategic Rail Study composed by Railtrack a few years back. Full of aspirations...........

Tram/Train services to Marple via Bredbury were apparently being considered for inclusion in the LTP2 as a major scheme bid (with diesel/electric trams believe it or not!) Simply because Phase 3 is at the forefront at the moment does not mean work/studies aren't underway for other projects. From conception to fruition is a long time in transport, just look at Phase 3!

The PTE are tasked with ensuring the needs of travellers in Manchester and its surroundings are best served. If that's Metrolink, bus rapid transit or indeed the castlefield curve. However, there is no pot of gold to fund every project and no matter how impressive or indeed necessary they are, they need to show value for money.
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Old July 20th, 2006, 10:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Architecty
You are absolutely right, thatís why I said its severed. The Sainsburyís, The Opal flats over the road, and several generic housing/flat developments towards Chorlton have made the Fallowfield loop a permanent thing of the past. The section of road outside the old station IS the old bridge over the tracks.

These developments also have one thing in common, they were only built in the last few years, the supermarket bar far the oldest and that was only finished in (I think 1999), the houses and flats are all in the last 2/3 years. Its an absolute miracle that the section through Chorlton and Didsbury had protected status and can be returned to use. The same thing has happened up and down the country; one of the problems with building any new high speed rail lines isnít that the Victorian engineers didnít leave enough spare land, its that it was all sold off in the 80/90ís.

Dual signalling on Ox Rd viaduct, I donít know about, but again the problem then is the limited capacity at plat 13/14 in Picc. Just watch the muppets sell off Mayfield at some point, and destroy the solution.
I think the plans for the area are to redevelop Mayfield (as a station) alongside PIccadilly.
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