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Old December 12th, 2014, 08:16 AM   #21
BlazerBlaze
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Originally Posted by Bobdreamz View Post
Would you care to explain what makes you think that South American money would start to flow into such a moribund city like Jax? What air routes if any does it have to South America? Miami & Orlando to a extent are the cities that are favored by most Carribean & S. Americans since both have substantial immigrant cultures already.
Jax is cheaper than Miami or Orlando. It's def #2 on my list with Atlanta first. I really think Jax is going to come out of it's shell whereas the NC cities are just expanding.
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Old December 12th, 2014, 10:45 AM   #22
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Jax is cheaper than Miami or Orlando. It's def #2 on my list with Atlanta first. I really think Jax is going to come out of it's shell whereas the NC cities are just expanding.
Cheap does not equate to "transformation" because if that was the case Jax would have boomed a long time ago.

I wish I could share your optimism regarding Jax but it was the only major city in Florida that missed out on the building boom that occurred in other major cities downtowns in the last decade. It has no mass transit to speak of except for their Skyway which some have wanted to tear down because they see it as a waste of money.

There is a lack of vision amongst the leaders in Jax who are also very Conservative and people recognize that from the outside. There is a reason why Jax will probably never see another Superbowl since the city can't even accommoadate visitors due to lack of hotel rooms.

The Port of Jacksonville should be a huge economic engine for the city yet they never sought out to deepen their Port to accept "Super Panamax" ships yet Miami which is at the end of the peninsula, dredged it's Port & built a $1 billion tunnel to get cargo from the port and unto I-95 by passing street traffic. Also, isn't it ironic that All Aboard Florida's train route doesn't include the state's largest city?

I don't dislike Jax but it's quite bizzare to see a city in my state with so much potential and not attempt to capitalize on it's natural & man made attributes.
Here is to a better Jacksonville in the future though!
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Old December 12th, 2014, 02:21 PM   #23
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Very well put Bobdreamz and unfortunately it seems like the only individuals in the city with some sort of vision for Jax's future, especially in the CBD, is the Jaguars owner Shad Khan and a select few.
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Old December 12th, 2014, 02:26 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobdreamz View Post
Cheap does not equate to "transformation" because if that was the case Jax would have boomed a long time ago.

I wish I could share your optimism regarding Jax but it was the only major city in Florida that missed out on the building boom that occurred in other major cities downtowns in the last decade. It has no mass transit to speak of except for their Skyway which some have wanted to tear down because they see it as a waste of money.

There is a lack of vision amongst the leaders in Jax who are also very Conservative and people recognize that from the outside. There is a reason why Jax will probably never see another Superbowl since the city can't even accommoadate visitors due to lack of hotel rooms.

The Port of Jacksonville should be a huge economic engine for the city yet they never sought out to deepen their Port to accept "Super Panamax" ships yet Miami which is at the end of the peninsula, dredged it's Port & built a $1 billion tunnel to get cargo from the port and unto I-95 by passing street traffic. Also, isn't it ironic that All Aboard Florida's train route doesn't include the state's largest city?

I don't dislike Jax but it's quite bizzare to see a city in my state with so much potential and not attempt to capitalize on it's natural & man made attributes.
Here is to a better Jacksonville in the future though!
Imagine what the city of Orlando would have become if the St. Johns River had flowed through its downtown like here in Jax.
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Old December 12th, 2014, 06:06 PM   #25
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^Well obviously Disney had a huge impact on the development of the Orlando metro area but today Orlando the city itself has a very solid downtown despite Disney to it's southwest.
Tampa is another "stalwart" in Florida behind Jax as well.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 07:22 AM   #26
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I'm sorry, but people are just naming any and all small cities. The true urban densification and growth will only occur in cities that already have large established large job markets. Yes, there will be some projects and unit delivery in the smaller or less established markets, but it won't be near the level of the top 5 or so markets of the Southeast and they will get further left behind.

Those cities are Nashville, Charlotte, Raleigh, Miami, and Atlanta. I would also add NOLA if that's part of the Southeast.

The percentage of population and density growth that has taken place in these six cities for the last three years are as followed based on predictions from the 2013 U.S. Census estimates:

Charlotte:
297.7 square miles
+8.4%
+61,438
Density increase: 206.38 people per square mile

Nashville:
504 square miles
+5.1%
+31,921
Density increase: 63.33 people per square miles

Raleigh
142.8 square miles
+6.9%
+27,854
Density increase: 195.05 people per square mile

Atlanta
131.8 square miles
+6.6%
+27838
Density increase: 211.21 people per square mile

Miami
35.68 square miles
+5.1%
+20320
Density increase: 569.51 people per square mile

New Orleans
169 square miles
+10.1%
+34,866
Density increase: 206.43 people per square mile

The reason I included square miles and density increase is because cities with larger city limits can simply increase suburban growth on the outer edges better than cities with smaller city limits. Obviously with a larger area, it's easier to gain more residents.

Based on this, Miami is by far the city densifying the quickest, followed by Atlanta, NOLA, and Charlotte all very close to one another. Then Raleigh, then last Nashville. This was based on 2013 estimates.

I think the 2014 estimates and even 2015 estimates will be very interesting for cities like Atlanta, Charlotte, and Nashville which are seeing large deliveries of new units and it will reflect. As the economies of Atlanta and Charlotte get better in particular, I think both of these cities will see explosive, boom-like growth.

The change may not be seen in Atlanta's skyline for example because of how large it already is, but it will be seen the inner urban neighborhoods whereas a city like Charlotte, it'll be seen in both skyline and neighborhoods.

I also think NOLA is seeing more people fill it established, already built neighborhoods rather than them building out a lot of new units so that city isn't seeing as many units as the Atlantas, Miami, Charlottes. The city already had a dense core.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 08:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531 View Post
I'm sorry, but people are just naming any and all small cities. The true urban densification and growth will only occur in cities that already have large established large job markets. Yes, there will be some projects and unit delivery in the smaller or less established markets, but it won't be near the level of the top 5 or so markets of the Southeast and they will get further left behind.
I took the original post to be exploring communities experiencing the most dynamic change, not simply absorbing the most growth. New Orleans may experience significant growth but barely change in the next 5-10 years due to it's existing form and development patterns. Atlanta might see the most number of mid-rises go up but how much would that change the dynamics of the urban core?

Small, anonymous cities surely won't see the total volume of change as the likes of Miami, but what little they get might mean a whole lot more net difference to them.
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Old December 15th, 2014, 11:36 PM   #28
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Atlanta! The rest are just pikers and wannabes! Looking at what Atlanta has added in "infill" surpasses anything any other S.E. city has in their whole downtown. Miami would get it for Caribbean city. Then I have to ask, what diff does it make what we "predict" here? Who would have predicted that Austin would have a bigger skyline than Charlotte just five years ago?
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Old December 16th, 2014, 04:41 PM   #29
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Atlanta! Who would have predicted that Austin would have a bigger skyline than Charlotte just five years ago?
Don't get me wrong, Austin has a chance to surpass Charlotte's skyline in 5-10 years. But saying its bigger now is just wrong.

Austonian would be barely the 3rd tallest building in downtown charlotte. Only 20 feet from being the 4th.
360 Condos would be 8th tallest in Charlotte (not counting spire)
Frost Bank would be 6th Tallest.
Charlotte has more buildings over 15 floors too, plus another 8-15 on the way, ranging from 15-36 floors.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 05:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickydavisfan21 View Post
Don't get me wrong, Austin has a chance to surpass Charlotte's skyline in 5-10 years. But saying its bigger now is just wrong.

Austonian would be barely the 3rd tallest building in downtown charlotte. Only 20 feet from being the 4th.
360 Condos would be 8th tallest in Charlotte (not counting spire)
Frost Bank would be 6th Tallest.
Charlotte has more buildings over 15 floors too, plus another 8-15 on the way, ranging from 15-36 floors.


I wonder which project will break ground next. AC Hotel?
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Old December 17th, 2014, 06:22 PM   #31
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I wonder which project will break ground next. AC Hotel?
AC Hotel hasn't gotten approval yet, it still needs revisions.

Greystar is approved, and has started permitting, they will be the next to break ground.

AC Hotel will follow, then spring hill suites, then Tryon Place, then Portman.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 06:36 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunnerJacket View Post
I took the original post to be exploring communities experiencing the most dynamic change, not simply absorbing the most growth. New Orleans may experience significant growth but barely change in the next 5-10 years due to it's existing form and development patterns. Atlanta might see the most number of mid-rises go up but how much would that change the dynamics of the urban core?

Small, anonymous cities surely won't see the total volume of change as the likes of Miami, but what little they get might mean a whole lot more net difference to them.
A lot. You have to remember, Atlanta is still not a dense city. Outside of Downtown and Midtown, that aren't many truly built up neighborhoods. Just look at the area around O4W park/Ponce City Market . Complete change from just 3-4 years ago. Look at the Buckhead Atlanta area...complete change from 3 years ago.

Atlanta is still the region with the most construction starts in dollars in the Southeast....at 6.6 Billion....Miami is 2nd at 6 billion. No other city makes the top 20 from the Southeast unless you include Orlando.. That's how large of a difference it is.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emeg4.../7-atlanta-ga/

Click here to see the scope of Atlanta's inner core development: http://devmap.io/cities/atlanta/developments
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Old December 17th, 2014, 07:22 PM   #33
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We shall see. If the Beltline and its related parks were to be completed within that time frame then I could see the continuation of new, dense development lasting past the next several years, but several realtors are already hedging their bets regarding an ebb in residential development with all these new 15-20 story condos and apartments going up. especially as the supporting commercial and civic investment is still lagging and who knows where the tri-state water wars will end up.

Atlanta has become much richer in terms of urbanity and city culture. I love the trend and hope it continues apace. I'm just not yet convinced I should go all in regarding its place in this comparison, however.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 11:19 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Ant131531 View Post
A lot. You have to remember, Atlanta is still not a dense city. Outside of Downtown and Midtown, that aren't many truly built up neighborhoods. Just look at the area around O4W park/Ponce City Market . Complete change from just 3-4 years ago. Look at the Buckhead Atlanta area...complete change from 3 years ago.

Atlanta is still the region with the most construction starts in dollars in the Southeast....at 6.6 Billion....Miami is 2nd at 6 billion. No other city makes the top 20 from the Southeast unless you include Orlando.. That's how large of a difference it is.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/emeg4.../7-atlanta-ga/

Click here to see the scope of Atlanta's inner core development: http://devmap.io/cities/atlanta/developments
Wrong section
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Old December 18th, 2014, 05:28 PM   #35
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The Southend/Uptown Submarket of Charlotte was named the fastest growing submarket for Apartment Construction in the nation.

1. Uptown Charlotte/South End
2. North San Jose/Milpitas, Calif,
3. Franklin/Williamson County, Tenn.
4. and Central Nashville (No. 4).
5. Mooresville (Charlotte MSA)

As expected Charlotte and Nashville are very well represented on this list.
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Old December 20th, 2014, 05:58 AM   #36
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Charlotte has largely stopped growing the way it was. Austin is still growing and reaching new heights, although rejecting the light rail will hurt them. OKC is beginning to boom, and with five or more skyscrapers and a light rail breaking ground, is clearly going to be the most changed.

For big cities, Houston is still building in an aspirational manner, whereas Atlanta obviously still has incredible planning opportunities available because of the way it was planned and the assets it has.

Last edited by SRG; December 20th, 2014 at 06:04 AM.
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Old December 20th, 2014, 03:14 PM   #37
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Charlotte has largely stopped growing the way it was. Austin is still growing and reaching new heights, although rejecting the light rail will hurt them. OKC is beginning to boom, and with five or more skyscrapers and a light rail breaking ground, is clearly going to be the most changed.

For big cities, Houston is still building in an aspirational manner, whereas Atlanta obviously still has incredible planning opportunities available because of the way it was planned and the assets it has.
I'm sorry what?
Charlotte, has most certainly not "stopped growing the way it was." US Census Data shows it on the short list for fastest growing cities in the Nation. It also has one of the most robust, and fastest expanding economies. It also leads the nation in multifamily construction.

Charlotte has an already successful light rail line which is being extended an additional 12 miles, that has already broken ground, and will open in 2 years. Phase 1 of the Lynx Gold Line streetcar line opening in February.

And we just keep having more and more skyscraper announcements.

Yesterday the Duke Energy Center Residential Tower was brought back from the dead. It will be 37 floors, only 5 floors shorter than the original tower.


Its just one of three proposed 30+ floor residential towers. There are a dozen 20+ floor proposals, and a crap ton of mid rises.

I don't see how Charlotte has "stopped growing the way it was"
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Old December 20th, 2014, 03:34 PM   #38
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Quote:
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I'm sorry what?
Charlotte, has most certainly not "stopped growing the way it was." US Census Data shows it on the short list for fastest growing cities in the Nation. It also has one of the most robust, and fastest expanding economies. It also leads the nation in multifamily construction.

Charlotte has an already successful light rail line which is being extended an additional 12 miles, that has already broken ground, and will open in 2 years. Phase 1 of the Lynx Gold Line streetcar line opening in February.

And we just keep having more and more skyscraper announcements.

Yesterday the Duke Energy Center Residential Tower was brought back from the dead. It will be 37 floors, only 5 floors shorter than the original tower.


Its just one of three proposed 30+ floor residential towers. There are a dozen 20+ floor proposals, and a crap ton of mid rises.

I don't see how Charlotte has "stopped growing the way it was"


I'd say our skyscraper boom is just as impressive (if not more) than our last round. Baseball stadium, new urban park, mutiple large office towers, mutiple large residentials, several hotels, 9 Miles of Light rail will open, a couple miles of streetcar will open, retail is coming uptown, full service grocery stores are comig along Tryon. Dozens of low rise residential line the light rail.


Just because there is a lack of Charlotte posters here doesn't mean it's slowed down here. Yes, we did lose steam 2010-2013. But we're back building faster than ever. I don't post here much about Charlotte because Charlottenposters tend to post on another site.


And our skyscraper growth is sustainable. Going to be largely dominated by office towers. Not by residentials (even though we do have an impressive 20 floor Element, both Skyhouses, 40 floor Wachovia/Duke apartment, 30 floor Bearden
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Old December 20th, 2014, 06:11 PM   #39
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Charlotte has largely stopped growing the way it was. Austin is still growing and reaching new heights, although rejecting the light rail will hurt them. OKC is beginning to boom, and with five or more skyscrapers and a light rail breaking ground, is clearly going to be the most changed.

For big cities, Houston is still building in an aspirational manner, whereas Atlanta obviously still has incredible planning opportunities available because of the way it was planned and the assets it has.
This statement shocked me as well.

I'm delighted to find that Charlotte is so under the radar with it's development right now. It's like we went away back in 2009 and everyone just forgot about us. From everything I'm reading and seeing (projections, proposals, CRANES), 2015 is going to be the reckoning for CLT. Get ready.
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Old December 20th, 2014, 07:07 PM   #40
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A news station last night made it sound like if Mercedes relocated to Charlotte that it would impact the Uptown skyline ?

Just shoddy reporting or would they likely build Uptown ?
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