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Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?

  • Yes

    Votes: 620 93.0%
  • No

    Votes: 47 7.0%
2M views 10K replies 812 participants last post by  sacto7654 
#1 ·
Acela Express...a major disappointment?

This was once touted as an alternative to driving and flying between Washington and New York and Boston at comparable comfort and speed to flying. Is this a major disappointment, and does it have a negative effect on the future of train travel in the US?
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Amtrak cancels once-ballyhooed Acela Express because of brake problems
Saturday, April 16, 2005
By Devlin Barrett, The Associated Press


WASHINGTON -- The Acela Express, Amtrak's much-ballyhooed hope for high-speed train travel, was shut down indefinitely Friday because of brake problems, leaving thousands of travelers scrambling for other transportation.

The beleaguered rail service pressed slower trains into use along the Northeast corridor between Washington, New York and Boston.

All Acela service will be suspended at least through next Wednesday and most is likely to be shut down for much longer because of newly discovered cracks in disc brakes, said Amtrak chief operating officer Bill Crosbie.

"We're very early into this," said Crosbie, estimating it was likely to take more than two months to do all the repairs, depending on the availability of replacement parts.

Millimeter-sized cracks were found in 300 of the Acela fleet's 1,440 disc brake rotors.

Amtrak said the extra trains would not be able to compensate for all the lost Acela seats. People with reservations who cannot get a ticket on another train -- or don't want one -- are entitled to a refund, the company said.

Amtrak normally runs 15 Acela weekday roundtrips between New York and Washington and 11 between New York and Boston. Acela accounts for about 20 percent of Amtrak's Boston-New York-Washington weekday service, some 9,000 passengers. On Friday's that's usually about 10,000.

The cracked brakes come at a bad time for Amtrak. A Senate committee will debate next week whether to end the rail service's federal subsidy -- as the Bush administration has recommended -- and radically reshape train travel in the United States.

"We're always under political pressure," said Amtrak CEO David Gunn. "I don't think that this will be a factor per se."

When Acela service was launched Dec. 11, 2000, the trains were billed as the faster, brighter future of Amtrak. Running only in the Northeast corridor, the trains can reach speeds of 150 mph and feature amenities such as conference tables in passenger cars, pub-style cafe cars with expanded menus and three audio music channels with headphone outlets at each seat.

The manufacturer, Bombardier Inc., had no immediate explanation for the cracks found on the steel spokes of disc brakes on most coaches.

"We want to get them up and running as soon as possible, but until we really understand the issue fully that's going to be an open question," said Bombardier spokesman David Slack.

The cracks were discovered during routine inspections, and no brake failures or other safety problems had occurred, Amtrak said.

That was little comfort to stranded business travelers and those who had made weekend plans.

Standing in line at New York's Penn Station, accountant Linda Priebe feared she wouldn't make it home to Baltimore Friday.

"If they can't give me a ticket to go in a couple of hours, I'm going back to the hotel," she said.

Art curator Stanley Babcock wasn't ready to give up.

He said he was ready to ride sitting on the floor. "Otherwise all my hotel and restaurant plans will be ruined."

Most other Amtrak service was scheduled to operate normally, but the company added four more regional trains Friday to try to handle the displaced passengers.

"It's going to be a challenge for us because we have limited additional equipment," said spokesman Cliff Black.

Lawmakers already upset over the Bush administration's plans to end most funding for Amtrak argued the incident shows Amtrak needs more help, not less.

"When Amtrak is terribly underfunded and has to operate on a shoestring budget, these kinds of things will keep happening, which will really disrupt people's lives and our economy," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y.

The White House seeks to radically reshape what Transportation Secretary Norman Y. Mineta had called "a dying railroad company."

A day before the Acela cancellation, the administration sent Congress a plan to reshape Amtrak as a private operator focused on running trains, not maintaining tracks or stations.

President Bush proposed in his 2006 budget eliminating Amtrak's operating subsidy. If the railroad ceased operating, the administration has offered to set aside $360 million to run trains along the Northeast Corridor. The current budget gives Amtrak some $1.2 billion in operating subsidies and capital investment.

Acela Express service also was halted in August 2002 after inspectors discovered cracks on a bracket holding a shock-absorbing assembly to one Acela Express locomotive. Additional cracks were later found around the assemblies of other locomotives.
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#908 ·
Earmarking diverted funding (tax gas to pay for rail) is a receipt for disaster, financially and politically. It creates dependency on funding from a different, unrelated source (gas tax) to build infrastructure drivers will not use (rail). I'm totally against it. It would be feasible to increase gas tax, if only to expand and mantain the current network, nothing more, nothing less.
 
#909 ·

Earmarking diverted funding (tax gas to pay for highways) is a receipt for disaster, financially and politically. It creates dependency on funding from a different, unrelated source (gas tax) to build infrastructure drivers will not use (highways). I'm totally against it. It would be feasible to increase gas tax, if only to expand and mantain the current network, nothing more, nothing less.
 
#910 ·
Why gas tax for car use is unrelated to highways?
 
#912 ·
That is a very pessimistic approach, thinking of US military like an "oil international police". I'd say it is almost (almost, not yet) insulting to suppose the mission of US Military is to secure its oil supply.
 
#913 ·
OMG!!! Perish the thought that America should actually use it's military to defend it's national interests. Prior to 1971 we had next to no military engagement in the region, it was only after Britain withdrew from "East of Suez" that we very reluctantly became engaged., and that only after the "Twin Pillars" strategy was proven to be like leaning upon a weak reed.

Outside of oil the Middle East is of no strategic consequence to the United States whatsoever, it would be as irrelevant as the Arab-Israeli blood feud to which only one American in fifty has stake in. If this is merely a delusion on my part, I can note that the Soviet Union seemed to share the delusion in that they devoted a great deal of effort to the ability to interdict the flow of oil from the region. The nations who joined with us in 1991 to eject Saddam Hussein from Kuwait seem to "suppose" the same thing.

The funds flushed down the toilet since 2003 to ensure that Iraqis could dip their fingers in purple ink and elect the Dawa Party (responsible for bombing our Kuwait embassy in 1983) could have funded the construction of a synthetic oil industry in the US that would produce more oil than the combined exports of Iran and Iraq. We need to have an "America First" energy policy, and ditch all the Sally Struthers crap.
 
#920 ·
First step: stop thinking or yelling that US citizens should drop their expectations of big houses, PRIVATE (not a public park!) gardens and lawns, SINGLE houses etc.

Sometimes it is almost ofensive (let alone boring) to hear Americans who have minority housing preferences (dense, multi-storied, "can walk everywhere") trying to push down the throat of their fellow citizens a transatlantic European-idealized housing pattern.

If you are so angry about US not having HSR, being car-centric, having too many suburban delvelopments, not enough "vibrancy" and the streets to the point that you start bashing your fellow countrymen for not agreeing with your urbanistic options and insisting in driving cars everywhere... move out to New York, or stamp your passport, get a visa and move to Europe.
 
#922 ·
Even if oil prices increased five-fold, gas is US would still be less expensive than it is today in Europe, as European countries, more or less, treat gas like it were tobacco.
 
#923 · (Edited)
Suburbs will be around, but they wouldn't be the same low density, car centric suburban sprawl we know today. BTW anderlot, what with you obsession with American suburbia?

ut I think both the US and European car drivers will soon be driving vehicles produced in east and south Asia. - And whyever not? When a high-margins industry is reduced to low-margins it normally migrates to low cost production locations.
Aren't many drivers just doing that?

Of course in principle there's no reason why country A should do something just because country B does it. However, this has been the argument on countless occasions here in Europe when "progressive" people pointed to recent innovation in the United States and "conservative" mainstream types scoffed at the notion that we should imitate US inventions. But... in the end we usually ended up doing just that.
Can you give examples on what you said in you last sentence.
 
#924 ·
Can you give examples on what you said in you last sentence.
Well, I'm not an engineer, but... an early example would be the first flight of the Wright brothers. European newspapers brought the story but mostly dismissed the possible implications for Europe out of hand: "In America everything's possible. That's well known. So, what's that to us?"

A more recent example - or so I've been told - was the development of fixed line telephony in the generation after WW2. The Europeans were busy perfecting their pre-war analagous technologies. When the Americans came out with the digital technology most European countries went into denial: "No, no, no... we have a much better, stronger and tested system. These gimmicks are just another one of those American gadflies...." The rest is history.
 
#925 ·
Suburbs will be around, but they wouldn't be the same low density, car centric suburban sprawl we know today. BTW anderlot, what with you obsession with American suburbia?
There is no obsession. I like suburban developments, I see no problem on they being car-centric, but it is under attack from the "cool", "urban-tendy" camp of environwackos and so on. There is no inherently problem with car transportation, for sake! Many peoplw write here like cars, big lots and single houses were essentialy bad because they are "non-European". I guess that, given an opportunity, these people would raise gas taxes to US$ 1/gal.
 
#926 ·
Many peoplw write here like cars, big lots and single houses were essentialy bad because they are "non-European". I guess that, given an opportunity, these people would raise gas taxes to US$ 1/gal.
I think that US$ 1/gallon would be substantially too low. I currently pay more than US$ 5/gallon at my local gas station. - And rightly so: in the words of a Danish cabinet minister (back in the 1970s, mind you...) "one should penalise those bastards who use their cars every day".
 
#927 · (Edited)
Denmark is Denmark, US is US. Danish should start adopting American patterns, not the opposite. It would boost their economy and increase conversion on uncompetitiv farmland in nice housing developments. Anyway, different countries, different expectations of their citizenry.

The idea that drivers should be "punished" is plainly wrong. It would be like "punish" people who choose to live in single house instead of apartments.

In America, most supporters of higher gas taxes are high-upper-class people who want the low-income families, college students etc. to drive less so they can have more roadspace for themselves.

Gas is expensive in Europe only because of taxes. Those taxes should be slashed or, at least, devoted ONLY to build and mantain road infrastructure (you use, you pay). Americans would tolerate a gas tax increase if the income were used to improve road mobility and maintain present structure, but they fear government will start diverting those funds to other purposes.
 
#931 · (Edited)
Denmark is Denmark, US is US. Danish should start adopting American patterns, not the opposite.

Gas is expensive in Europe only because of taxes. Those taxes should be slashed or, at least, devoted ONLY to build and mantain road infrastructure (you use, you pay).
You Americans are so.... outdated. :lol:

I'd say you should stick to your car-centric sprawl-increasing policy if you wish. You still have lots of land to cover with your beloved detached-housing suburbia. Just don't tell Europeans what they should do. I mean, use Google-Earth - browse through Netherlands or even Denmark. See the distance between cities. See the density. And then stop giving us such an advice...

But I won't say even that. Because there's a problem with greenhouse emissions. How do you expect to cut these if you stick to your 2x7-lanes-wide, but always congested highways? If you still refuse to cut the emissions, Europe will probably give up on the task too - I mean, how long do you expect Europe will decrease its emission just to see you (and Asia) immediately fill out the gap with your pollution?

It's sad to see the Americans just never learn.

He's talking about taxes, not the total price of tha product.
We know. In Europe we really pay at least $5/gallon of taxes. The total price is now around $7.5/gallon. :lol:
 
#929 ·
I agree with you. Living two blocks from your workplace, cycling everywhere are part of a lifestyle well-suited for young, single, no-kids and healthy professionals or students living in mostly flat, mild weather European cities.

It is unpractical, even dangerous, I'd say, to expect people to cycle 3 to 5 miles in Phoenix or Houston during summer, or doing the same in Denver or Boise, MT, in winters.

The expectation that people could ever arrange their lives within walking distance is not real for families with children, unless we roll back to a time when just one of the adults had a carrer, while the other stayed home taking care of children, who didn't do much else than school and maybe a local part-time job. At least, one of the adults would have to stick to a low-skilled, low-paying career where you can find jobs in evey neighborhood (like cashier, salespersone tc.). I don't think anyone except for the very nostalgics or anti-technological freaks would propose this arrangements for 21st Century Western families.
 
#933 ·
I'm Italian and Brazilian, now living in The Netherlands (before that I lived in Milano). And I'm the first to bash this utterly expensive housing market we have here, and the annoying gas taxes all European governments impose.
 
#935 ·
I'm [...] now living in The Netherlands
OK, I see the point. You're not the first to be living in The Netherlands and longing to empty streets of american suburbia. :lol: Overcrowding may be damaging to one's view. ;) Anyway, this thread is not about European perspective, so I'll finish the topic with "sorry for my misunderstanding".

But my point still stands - I'm so disappointed with the general American public still sticking to their dream from the 1950ies, regardless any consequences it has brought during the last 50 years...
 
#938 ·
@E2rdEm: I've lived for a while in Wyoming, then I usually hanged in/out around Denver, cruising the I-25 frequently. That was when I started loving suburbia.
 
#947 ·
Likewise, living only where the government deems "recommended" because it doesn't want to invest in new rail lines is not fair also.
 
#951 ·
Well, if discussion is about pollution, I don't think we should slip into "let's live with less" leftist, environwackist discourse. Instead, we should look after ways to massively improve renewable fuels (from solar power to efficient biofuels, from wind farms to electrical and/or hydrogen powered cars). It's easier, in the long term, to move cars with clean energy than to try to "teach" Americans that they should give up on their extremelly sucessful society (not without its problems, for sure).

Developed countries must keep an economic, political and military edge over the rest of the World. Pushing for third generation clean cars is one of the ways to go. Using biofuel, in the short term, is good because most of our enimies cannot produce them, yet they will be bit by increased costs that will diminish their ability to buy arms instead of fuel or, in some cases, food - but this is a completely different discussion.
 
#953 ·
For the Last time , which ive been trying to tell you guys but you don't listen , because you rather pick on the US. We are building alot of Public Transit and have alot Planned. As for High Speed Rail , public Transportation in Urban Areas has gained more traction then HSR , unfortunately. Use this site to look at some of the projects happening or planned.. And STOP with the Anti-American Crap its getting retarded and makes you look immature :eek:hno:

~Corey
 
#956 ·
Japan aims for US billions with bullet trains, but European rivals have head start
16 December 2009

NAGOYA, Japan (AP) - On a desolate stretch of track just before midnight, when all passenger lines have been put to bed, a juiced-up Japanese bullet train goes online and accelerates to over 200 miles per hour. The 700-ton train, about a quarter of a mile long, whooshes by rice paddies in under five seconds.

There are no locals around to witness the train glide to a stop at a deserted Kyoto Station, but that's not the point. This is an accelerated sales pitch aimed squarely at the U.S., where Japan is competing with European train makers for a new high-speed train network that could deliver contracts worth hundreds of billions.

Diplomats, business leaders and journalists were crammed in to watch special speedometers record the feat last month, the first time operator Japan Central Railway Co. has allowed outsiders to join a test run. Rivals abroad said Japanese trains weren't up to spec, and JR Central wanted to set the record straight.

"In France and Germany they have been saying we can only do 280 kilometers (170 miles) per hour, so we had to demonstrate," says company chairman Yoshiyuki Kasai.

That Japan's bottle-nosed bullet trains -- known here as the "shinkansen" -- can hold their own against overseas models has long been a point of pride. But now a massive sales race is underway. While the majority of services to date have been built in Europe, where makers like France's Alstom and Germany's Siemens dominate, governments around the world are looking to upgrade as existing lines age.

A diverse group of countries is at various stages of introducing super trains, including Russia, the U.K., Vietnam and Brazil, but the U.S. is the ultimate prize.

President Barack Obama's stimulus package included an $8 billion provision for high-speed trains, and some say eventually $600 billion will be needed for a nationwide network. Japan's exports to the U.S. last year totaled about $140 billion.

A high speed network would drastically cut U.S. train times. The Washington to New York route would drop from two and half hours to about 70 minutes, according to Kasai. That would create a viable alternative to planes and cars, cutting down on traffic and depositing travelers at stations that are often in the city center.

Some analysts question whether cash-strapped Washington can afford to follow up the initial provision with more funds. But building new train lines can also be a vote winner, hitting political touchstones like jobs and reduced pollution.

JR Central, one of the operators created when Japan privatized its railways in 1987, is leading the charge in the U.S., but is also taking a risky winner-takes-all approach. The company is pitching a total package covering everything from train cars to signals to maintenance machinery and even employee instruction -- even though many in the industry prefer to rely on a variety of suppliers.

Few countries have the technology to safely move passengers and hundreds of tons of train so swiftly.

Japan was an early innovator, launching services in 1964 to coincide with the Tokyo Olympics. Rivals with more experience at exporting include Alstom, a world leader by market share, and Siemens, which already has a light rail factory in Sacramento. Both have 200 mph trains in Europe and have said they will pursue the rail dollars from Washington.

Japan is hoping its close political ties to the U.S. will give its sales pitch a boost. When Obama visited Tokyo last month, Japanese leader Yukio Hatoyama highlighted Japanese trains and handed over promotional DVDs.

The country has had some success abroad. Earlier this week the U.K. launched its first high-speed service using trains made by Hitachi. In Vietnam, a major recipient of Japanese government financial assistance, officials have said they want to use Japan's technology for a new train network that may include high-speed services.

JR Central runs high-speed services on the prized routes from Tokyo to Kyoto and Osaka, and designs and operates its own fleet. Bullet trains built by the company are currently used in a high-speed network in Taiwan, the first time they were sold abroad.

But that $18 billion project combines the Japanese train cars with technologies from other countries, a hodgepodge solution that JR Central wants to avoid in the U.S., because it means modifying proven technologies and a smaller paycheck.

"This is not a system that can be divided up into parts, and we are proposing adoption of the entire system," said Tsutomu Morimura, an executive in charge of JR Central's technology division.

Morimura says this is the only way to employ the company's advanced technology and guarantee a safe and efficient system. Rail experts agree that Japan's train tech is among the best in the world, but wonder whether an all-or-nothing approach will work in the U.S.

"If you rely totally and completely on a single country, when a problem arises there is a lot of risk, so the fundamental stance of many buyers is not to rely on the technology from one country," said Credit Suisse analyst Osuke Itazaki.

Robert Eckels, chairman of the Texas High Speed Rail Corp. that works to bring such a system to the state, was present at the demonstration in Japan. He was impressed but wasn't sure how the company's all-in-one pitch would play out in the states.

Unlike in Europe, where border crossings and ensuring compatibility on differing rail networks are prerequisites for doing business, Japan's trains have been developed on an island, with homebrew technology. Other Japanese industries with enviable but non-compatible technologies, like its mobile phone operators, haven't fared well in repeated attempts to go abroad.

Another wrinkle: Japan's high-speed trains run on their own tracks, with no crossings and dedicated bridges over crowded areas. Building such lines from scratch in the U.S. would be costly, but executives like Morimura say it's an advantage to be unconstrained by the standards of conventional networks.

Bullet trains do have an impressive history. No passengers have died from a derailment or collision in nearly a half century of service, with the only derailment during a major earthquake in 2004. The average delay for JR Central services each year, despite hundreds of trains each day, is typically less than a minute.

For Japan, billions in contracts would be a welcome boost as the economy begins to recover from recession, and help stir national pride. The "shinkansen" are a symbol of the country's technological prowess here, where services have names like "Hope" and "Light," and miniature replicas are popular among children.

When one of the original trains was retired and put on display at a museum on the outskirts of Tokyo earlier this year, some 16,000 visitors crammed in during the first week to take pictures and rub its elongated nose.
 
#958 ·
First build where it's needed. I can say California can really use the modal variety. As for what technology, Japanese have experience with earthquakes no doubt, but Alstom had their foot in the door long before. Original renderings (though not indicative of the future) featured the TGV Duplex, so Alstom was definitely on the minds of the HSR Authority board long before anyone else.
 
#959 ·
Maybe with the current health care debate, some Senator will make a compromise like voting for Health Care reform bill in exchange for a HSR linking Boise and Des Moines.
 
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