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Old October 27th, 2017, 08:28 PM   #6941
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On the contrary. Deutsche Bahn makes a profit almost every year. The company made a profit of approx. 700 million euro (after tax) in 2016. DB is legally obliged to make a profit.
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Old October 27th, 2017, 08:56 PM   #6942
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerone.Au View Post
A question which may be silly... but are Renfe/SNCF/DB/Trenitalia allowed or even do these services for the Californian HST for a profit? I mean they are not only state enterprises but they are not meant to run for a profit at all, their sole purpose is to guarantee a fast, seamless and reliable connection for the citizens. So am I correctly speaking if I say (in the case that DB wins for example) that the German state is directly or indirectly subsidising a portion of this HST ? I mean if DB does turn profit with it.. what will it do with? help minimise its losses at home? because I don't see it reinvesting it in a infrastructure that isn't theirs, right??... I'd like a thorough clarification please
Basically what these companies want is to make money, can be directly in providing the service (little, at least in the initial phase, which is what it is), and get contracts for companies from their countries.
The operator who wins the next contract to operate in the long run does expect to earn money. In Saudi Arabia they wanted high speed, so a Spanish consortium (similar to the one that has been presented in California) will operate and maintenance of the line and rolling stock for 12 years, expandable to 17. The operation includes all the management of the line: marketing, security, management of stations, etc.

In the United Kingdom, for example, 40% of its passengers travel in German, French or Dutch public companies.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 01:18 AM   #6943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attus View Post

On the contrary. Deutsche Bahn makes a profit almost every year. The company made a profit of approx. 700 million euro (after tax) in 2016. DB is legally obliged to make a profit.
Thanks for correcting, it's just like in the case of SNCB for example, they always make a loss after taxes and debt, and the governments (!) of the country don't really mind
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Old October 28th, 2017, 11:27 AM   #6944
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DB is a private for-profit company. Even at home, long distance travels run without subsidy. Regional services are more complicated but even there, the word "subsidy" doesn't really describe how the system works. DB owns and manages numerous subsidiary companies around the world, all of which have no involvement from the german government.
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Old October 29th, 2017, 03:40 PM   #6945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerone.Au View Post
A question which may be silly... but are Renfe/SNCF/DB allowed or even do these services for the Californian HST for a profit? I mean they are not only state enterprises but they are not meant to run for a profit at all, their sole purpose is to guarantee a fast, seamless and reliable connection for the citizens. So am I correctly speaking if I say (in the case that DB wins for example) that the German state is directly or indirectly subsidising a portion of this HST ? I mean if DB does turn profit with it.. what will it do with? help minimise its losses at home? because I don't see it reinvesting it in a infrastructure that isn't theirs, right??... I'd like a thorough clarification please
The simplest way to think of this is that the Authority/California will own almost all of the infrastructure (it remains to be seen just what will end up happening with rolling stock, but they are currently planning to acquire that, as well), while the operator will be responsible solely for providing service.

This essentially means that the Authority can solicit bids for which an operator only needs to consider what ridership (and thus, profits) they can generate without considering life-cycle costs and other maintenance fees - regardless of how the cost-sharing structure of these costs may be born out between the Authority and operator; that is, it should all be factored into the franchise agreement.

The Authority gets a guaranteed sum of money over the life of the contract - and probably some increment of profits beyond a certain threshold - which allows them to perform maintenance, service debt, and plan for expansions.

Eurostar, Thalys, etc services in Europe are really good examples of such a franchise system. When we talk about CAHSR not being allowed public subsidy, I believe we mean that the government cannot, by law, pay to run any services. I don't know that it means the government will never pay for any expansion or infrastructure costs, in the future. That, I'm still murky on.

In any case, as I understand from the business plan, this current contract is just one in which DB will act as a consultant in helping the Authority establish a fare system, marketing, station designs, etc for a fee, while also having the first right to operate the initial Madera-Fresno-Bakersfield portion of the IOS. Once the Authority begins finishes the connection from Merced-Madera-Gilroy to San Jose-San Francisco (e.g. the northern IOS), the bid will go out for a full competitive round.

This should happen again, once the southern IOS (Bakersfield-Palmdale to Burbank-LA-Anaheim) is completed.
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Old October 29th, 2017, 11:08 PM   #6946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
...
Eurostar, Thalys, etc services in Europe are really good examples of such a franchise system...
I disagree, Eurostar (SNCF: 55%, Caisse du Quebec: 30%, Hermes Infra: 10% and SNCB: 5%) and Thalys (SNCF: 60% y SNCB: 40%; before it was: SNCF: 62%, SNCB-NMBS: 28%, DB-FV: 10%) are not franchises, they are operators that transport passengers between certain countries under agreements between operators from those countries, just like these others: Allegro, Alleo, Artesia, Cisalpino, City Night Line, Elipsos, Eurostar, Fyra, HSA, Lyria, NS Speed, Railteam, Reinalp, Rhealys, Tee Rail Alliance, Thalys and Thello.

Eurostar trains run on the line owned by Eurotunnel (Groupe Eurotunnel SE), on French and Belgian lines, and on HS1 owned by Channel Tunnel Rail Link, a semi-public consortium.
Through the Channel Tunnel, freight trains (Eurotunnel Shuttle, Europorte and DB Schenker) also circulate, and the same freight trains and high-speed passenger trains (225 km/h) from Southeastern Railway run on HS1. On the French and Belgian lines there is even more variety.

Since 2010, international passenger traffic in the European Union has been liberalized. If you have a company with safety certificates A and B, homologate your trains and pay the access charges, you can travel through the Channel Tunnel. DB wanted to do it, although he ended up giving up his plans.
That can not be done in California.
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Old October 30th, 2017, 06:26 AM   #6947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TM_Germany View Post
DB is a private for-profit company. Even at home, long distance travels run without subsidy. Regional services are more complicated but even there, the word "subsidy" doesn't really describe how the system works. DB owns and manages numerous subsidiary companies around the world, all of which have no involvement from the german government.
It's private, but its sole share-holder is the Federal Republic, which is worthy of note.
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Old October 30th, 2017, 02:33 PM   #6948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
I disagree, Eurostar (SNCF: 55%, Caisse du Quebec: 30%, Hermes Infra: 10% and SNCB: 5%) and Thalys (SNCF: 60% y SNCB: 40%; before it was: SNCF: 62%, SNCB-NMBS: 28%, DB-FV: 10%) are not franchises, they are operators that transport passengers between certain countries under agreements between operators from those countries, just like these others: Allegro, Alleo, Artesia, Cisalpino, City Night Line, Elipsos, Eurostar, Fyra, HSA, Lyria, NS Speed, Railteam, Reinalp, Rhealys, Tee Rail Alliance, Thalys and Thello.
Well then, seems the ownership is messier than I’d presumed.

But whether the correct term to apply is franchise or concession...I digress. Eurostar services are run under an agreement between the holding company (formerly [UK] government owned, since spun off/‘privatized’) of the HS1 assets (tunnel, ROW, stations, etc) and the operator of the trains, no? Regardless of whether other operators can access these facilities, this concession (the terms of which I don’t know) to Eurostar does exist?

All I meant to say (and didn’t say well, I suppose) is that the capital costs of maintaining the infrastructure will be separate from the costs of operating the service in CA, as they are in many places around the world. That is, they’re on different balance sheets.

I don’t think one necessarily needs to say that Thalys, Eurostar, et al resemble monopolized, single-operator contracts to demonstrate where the CA system is headed: There are parallels.

Whatever we’d call it to draw parallels to these services in Europe, it’s far more similar than recent examples in the US (All Aboard Florida, TX Central, Xpress West, etc) — and existing paradigms in Japan (JR) — in which both assets and passenger services are wholly owned/operated by one private entity, which is a guaranteed monopoly absent government regulations on the use of the ROWs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
That can not be done in California.
It can be done however the Authority decides to run the system...Initially, it will be a single operator, but it doesn’t need to remain such and likely won’t, given some recent developments.

XpressWest is a private consortium that plans to link with the California system to provide service between LA-Las Vegas. The Authority can move to a framework in which capacity is filled on a provisional basis (eg how other EU operators access the Chunnel, as you describe it, or how Amtrak leases access to facilities in the NEC).

All indications point to there inevitably being several competing operators (Amtrak, the CA franchisee/concessionaire, and other private operators), in what is effectively to be a statewide system.
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Old October 30th, 2017, 06:15 PM   #6949
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There is no concession. Eurotunnel is a private company that built the Channel Tunnel and charges anyone who wants to go there. Channel Tunnel Rail Link is a semi-public company that built the HS1 and charges anyone who wants to go there.

CHSRA commissioned the construction, commission the trains and delegate the operation to another company because it lacks experience.
I insist: at high speed the only thing similar is the Haramain HSR in Saudi Arabia.
In Japan, private companies were distributed territorially to JR Japan, and pay fees for access to JRTT that is public; there is no competition.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 08:48 AM   #6950
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New construction photos on the CAHSR flickr page.
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