daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > دار زايـــد United Arab Emirates

دار زايـــد United Arab Emirates The exciting new world in Dubai , Abu Dhabi and other Emirates



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old April 12th, 2011, 12:38 AM   #21
MANUTD
MANUTD
 
MANUTD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: DUBAI
Posts: 1,546
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWayne28thfloor View Post
What is a variation addendum as a matter of interest?
OMG checkout THE POINT THREAD -- its will educate you !!
MANUTD no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old April 12th, 2011, 12:23 PM   #22
CAJ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: YORK
Posts: 71
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bling08 View Post
Brace yourselves. Just received Handover Documents.

We are on Lengthy Payment Plan, so we just continue with Payments, but before handover they want us to sign Variation Addendum and pay the following amounts:

First Provisional Service Charge Dhs 15.2/sq - Total of 13,580.24
Capital Reserve Fund Charge @Dhs 1/sq - Total of 893.44
Provisional Chilled Water Charge - Dhs 5/Sq - Total of 4,467.18
Affection Plan Charges - Not sure what this is - 390.00 Dhs

They are credited us with (3,380.63) as they call it "Total Goodwill Amount" - Assuming this is for Late penalty payments - Seems very low.

So we need to pay a total of 15,950.23 and send a signed copy of Variation Addendum before they will allow Handover.

They stated Handovers will commence 1st May 2011.

There are lots of other info and I've only just received it, but thought I would outline the key concerns. Do let me know if you want further info.

Can't remember what the Point's Service Charge was to compare. Would be interested to hear all your thoughts on the above.

Whilst I am pleased there is light at the end of the tunnel, I still think we have a long way to go - Hope I am wrong. Its been a long haul!!!

Kind regards

Bling08
Does the addendum only relate to the payments you refer to?
CAJ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 12:30 PM   #23
Anjam
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Reading
Posts: 752
Likes (Received): 0

One relates to the change in apartment numbers and another is for LPP owners who do not yet own the property outright. Will post details tonight.
Anjam no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 12:34 PM   #24
CAJ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: YORK
Posts: 71
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anjam View Post
One relates to the change in apartment numbers and another is for LPP owners who do not yet own the property outright. Will post details tonight.
Would appreciate that. Many thanks
CAJ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 06:05 PM   #25
SGrCRAP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 257
Likes (Received): 0

Select Group - More deadly than Fukushima!

Torch Folk,

I'm a Point owner so I thought I'd share some of our experiences with you guys as I can see history repeating itself.

Select Group quite simply cannot be trusted! They ramped the Point service charges at every possible opportunity and provided a totally shocking level of service.

Essentially developers are now looking to make their money from facilities management rather than new build development. Every tower which completes is full of owners who developers and FM companies view as cash cows which they can extort cash from.

Developers will attempt to bamboozle owners with a whole load of rules and regs but one thing is constant.... the MARK UP. Everything we pay for in the Point has been marked up by 250-300%. Some 'specialised' line items are marked up by over 1000%. We worked out we could fly British tradesmen over and put them up in the Royal Mirage and pay them 500 quid a day for less!

Be very careful about your post handover common area snagging defects - Select will probably stitch you up here - apparently Select Group retained several million dirhams from DCE on the Point build. DCE then refused to fix the common area snagging issues at the Point and downed tools. Select Group then went into complete denial there was anything wrong with the common areas and told the Point IOA all the problems in the building occurred after the building was handed over! Yes..... they really did!

So Select short changed DCE and left all the problems and incomplete issues for the owners to pay for. Most people call this robbery!

Beware of Trojan Horses.....

Select Group will start to make noises about getting the Torch owners association up and running soon. They will say that under RERA rules and regs they cannot provide FM services after the owners association is formed. They will then recommend OA management service providers who "on the surface" specialise in formalizing the OA formation of your building and making it JOP compliant.

A lot of Point owners strongly suspect Select Group are in cahoots with several of these OA service providers. We've seen internal emails between Select and these companies which confirms there is an extremely close relationship.

Best Advice -
  • Get you Owners Association Registered as quickly as possible
  • Get your building indpendently surveyed - you need to do this to get your OA formalized.
  • Don't use an OA formation service provider - they will rip you off even more
  • Once you've got your OA formed appoint your own bulding manager who ideally would be a resident owner
  • Then write direct contracts between your legal entity (Torch Development Ltd probably) and service providers. Kick out any FM umbrella service provider - go direct

If you do this you should be able to get your service charges to under 10 AED/sqft.

50% of everything you pay is being skimmed by all the middle men.

Hope this provides some insight for you
SGrCRAP no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 06:56 PM   #26
Dubai_Steve
Dubai State of Mind
 
Dubai_Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,601
Likes (Received): 135

The SELECT thread...

Thanks for your comments. I guess there is no choice but to pay the 1st years maintenance charges however in order to get handover?

This seems to be AED 21.2 per sq ft! (15.2 maint. + 1 reserve fund + 5 chiller charge).

Presumably the good will gesture payments will be skimmed back off this.

During this 1st year we can then work on getting rid of Select?
Dubai_Steve no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 07:02 PM   #27
steve short
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 5
Likes (Received): 2

to get rid of sg and start your own oa we will require a full list of owners i doubt if sg will supply this could we get one from the land registry people??
steve short no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 07:02 PM   #28
foxy
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 238
Likes (Received): 0

Thanks for the advice. You won't be surprised that few trust Select. I have always felt that Select have been extremely cynical in dealing with us. They basically get away with what they can. And I don't feel RERA has helped us enough if at all.
So what I propose as owners is that we are active in dealing with Select, because if we are passive they will walk all over us.
An independent audit of the building is the least we can do.

Ps. Is it true that Select hasn't handed over a list of Point owners to the OA?
foxy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 07:37 PM   #29
Rider
Registered User
 
Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 458
Likes (Received): 42

Is it normal practice in Dubai for developers to award themselves the Building Management contract for the first 12 months?

I guess we need to find an owner who plans to live in the building and is willing to take the lead in forming an OA before following the other steps as outlined by SGrCrap - thanks for taking the time to post that by the way.

Last edited by Rider; April 12th, 2011 at 07:42 PM.
Rider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 07:54 PM   #30
Rider
Registered User
 
Rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 458
Likes (Received): 42

What are these 'exclusive 3 bedroom penthouses now released on the 84th floor'

Is there a change in design or have Select kept these up their sleeve?
Rider no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 09:17 PM   #31
flashinglights
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 158
Likes (Received): 1

Either the scaffolding is coming down, or they have now built the spire above the top of the scaffolding.

Not long to go.
flashinglights no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 10:19 PM   #32
Anjam
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Reading
Posts: 752
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider View Post
What are these 'exclusive 3 bedroom penthouses now released on the 84th floor'

Is there a change in design or have Select kept these up their sleeve?
Apparently Select kept a number of apartments to sell on completion. It may have been around 10% of them from memory.
Anjam no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 12th, 2011, 10:55 PM   #33
scoobudubai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 542
Likes (Received): 1

Please refer to clause 10.1..YOU MUST accept handover within 30 days max....etc
Is this valid? If one accepts handover, is it available -immediately- to occupy?

Last edited by scoobudubai; April 13th, 2011 at 02:10 AM.
scoobudubai no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2011, 12:29 AM   #34
Anjam
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Reading
Posts: 752
Likes (Received): 0

..

Last edited by Anjam; April 13th, 2011 at 02:51 AM.
Anjam no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2011, 02:12 AM   #35
scoobudubai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 542
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlane View Post
well i wouldnt buy an apartment in dubai without a balcony to be honest

there is nothing better than coming back after a long day,putting on your shorts,grabbing a cold beer and chilling on your balcony watching the world go by

buying a square box with out any access outside aint a good move

no tenants would go for apartments like these,well they would for a small price
hmm...

Last edited by scoobudubai; April 13th, 2011 at 03:25 AM.
scoobudubai no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2011, 09:53 AM   #36
ramzy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 198
Likes (Received): 0

Isn't there a Dubia law which states that an owners association must be setup and registered with Rera upon completion by the developer? If so can't the full list of owners be acquired from rera?
ramzy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2011, 10:38 AM   #37
SGrCRAP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 257
Likes (Received): 0

The SELECT thread...

Hi Folks,

Thought I'd fill you guys in a bit on what's been going on.

Fristly and most importantly there will be an email going out to all owners in the next day or so which asks you to complete a proxy form for the AGM if you can't attend. We could really do with as many proxy votes as possible as Select can exercise 61 votes at the AGM due to their illegal contract ammendment for LPP owners. (As you know they took away LPP owners voting rights by blackmailing them prior to handover)

So keep you eyes on your email for the proxy forms - the email will contain names of owners going to the AGM which you can use to carry your vote.

The reasons the service charges have gone up are:-
  • Chiller Fees
  • Lack of essential maintenance
  • Hyper marked up services

The IOA has been battling to try and get these areas under control.

Chiller Fees

With regard to the Chilled water provision the building AC was exceptionally poorly managed by Select Group. The common areas were over cooled and there was no adjustment to chilled water or set point temperatures on the roof chillers. Strata Global have raised the chilled water temperature by 2-3% degrees recently which should save money. The IOA had been asking Paul Brady to do this for months if not years but Select Group never bothered as they weren't paying the bills and their 100k pounds a year management fee wasn't enough to cover 'tricky' stuff like adjusting a dial!

The IOA in conjunction with Strata Global are also looking into energy reduction through the installation of BTU meters in each unit. They will meter unit AC consumption and even up the playing field as chiller costs will be based on usage. If occupants want to have their units ice cold then they'll have to pay for the pleasure. Currently the energy usage policy in the building is climatically irresponsible! The IOA are investigating costs for the BTU option with Strata Global.

Lack of Essential Services

According to Strata Global Select Group provided a skeletal FM service which had no provisions for maintaining things like the 'lifting station' -aka the submersible pump in the footings which keeps them dry. So the new FM provider called Lootah FM is supposedly providing a comprehensive service which will address the gaps left by Select.

Hyper Mark Ups.

I've seen the line item costings supplied by Lootah and the costs are eye watering. The obvious question you will ask is "why don't we look at other FM providers" - well the answer is they are generally all the same - they are RIP OFF merchants exactly like Select Group.

We've been told we need a full time life guard according to Dubai Municipality rules 'cos some drunken **** drowned in a pool somewhere. So the FM provider quoted us about 300% percent more than what you'd pay if you hired directly. Specialised maintenance such as pump maintenance is seriously marked up. Lootah wanted 52,000 + AED for a quarterly service of our pump. That's £2,500 quid a pop. You could pay a British pump engineer 500 quid for an hour or two's work, fly him out and put him up in the Royal Mirage for a night for less! Totally barking!

Summary.

From my perspective the developers and FM providers are using RERA rules and regs to bamboozle owners in order to attach themselves to our service charges for as long as they possibly can.

The whole property development market seems to be re-alligning itself for FM as this is where the money is (at the moment) The developers can't legally provide FM services once a building is JOP compliant and RERA certified with a bona fide owners association. So the developers appear to be either setting up FM subsidiaries or getting very cosy with FM providers and OA managed services providers. It's a bit like a baton pass in the "Rip of Dubai Owners 2011" relay race.

What's the answer - I think getting the OA registered through RERA is the only way to get any control. Once this is in place you can get rid of all the blood suckers attached to the service charge funds and write direct contracts between the Point Development Ltd company and service providers. The umbrella FM providers and OA management firms are way to greedy to stay in business.

Essentially developers and FM companies still perceive owners to be a load of mugs with too much money to care about being fleeced. Times have changed but they haven't.

Adapt or die. I would prefer they did the latter!

Remember to send your proxy vote
SGrCRAP no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2011, 10:53 AM   #38
RedWayne28thfloor
Registered User
 
RedWayne28thfloor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Costa Del Rochdale
Posts: 668
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGrCRAP View Post
Hi Folks,

Thought I'd fill you guys in a bit on what's been going on.

Fristly and most importantly there will be an email going out to all owners in the next day or so which asks you to complete a proxy form for the AGM if you can't attend. We could really do with as many proxy votes as possible as Select can exercise 61 votes at the AGM due to their illegal contract ammendment for LPP owners. (As you know they took away LPP owners voting rights by blackmailing them prior to handover)

So keep you eyes on your email for the proxy forms - the email will contain names of owners going to the AGM which you can use to carry your vote.

The reasons the service charges have gone up are:-
  • Chiller Fees
  • Lack of essential maintenance
  • Hyper marked up services

The IOA has been battling to try and get these areas under control.

Chiller Fees

With regard to the Chilled water provision the building AC was exceptionally poorly managed by Select Group. The common areas were over cooled and there was no adjustment to chilled water or set point temperatures on the roof chillers. Strata Global have raised the chilled water temperature by 2-3% degrees recently which should save money. The IOA had been asking Paul Brady to do this for months if not years but Select Group never bothered as they weren't paying the bills and their 100k pounds a year management fee wasn't enough to cover 'tricky' stuff like adjusting a dial!

The IOA in conjunction with Strata Global are also looking into energy reduction through the installation of BTU meters in each unit. They will meter unit AC consumption and even up the playing field as chiller costs will be based on usage. If occupants want to have their units ice cold then they'll have to pay for the pleasure. Currently the energy usage policy in the building is climatically irresponsible! The IOA are investigating costs for the BTU option with Strata Global.

Lack of Essential Services

According to Strata Global Select Group provided a skeletal FM service which had no provisions for maintaining things like the 'lifting station' -aka the submersible pump in the footings which keeps them dry. So the new FM provider called Lootah FM is supposedly providing a comprehensive service which will address the gaps left by Select.

Hyper Mark Ups.

I've seen the line item costings supplied by Lootah and the costs are eye watering. The obvious question you will ask is "why don't we look at other FM providers" - well the answer is they are generally all the same - they are RIP OFF merchants exactly like Select Group.

We've been told we need a full time life guard according to Dubai Municipality rules 'cos some drunken **** drowned in a pool somewhere. So the FM provider quoted us about 300% percent more than what you'd pay if you hired directly. Specialised maintenance such as pump maintenance is seriously marked up. Lootah wanted 52,000 + AED for a quarterly service of our pump. That's £2,500 quid a pop. You could pay a British pump engineer 500 quid for an hour or two's work, fly him out and put him up in the Royal Mirage for a night for less! Totally barking!

Summary.

From my perspective the developers and FM providers are using RERA rules and regs to bamboozle owners in order to attach themselves to our service charges for as long as they possibly can.

The whole property development market seems to be re-alligning itself for FM as this is where the money is (at the moment) The developers can't legally provide FM services once a building is JOP compliant and RERA certified with a bona fide owners association. So the developers appear to be either setting up FM subsidiaries or getting very cosy with FM providers and OA managed services providers. It's a bit like a baton pass in the "Rip of Dubai Owners 2011" relay race.

What's the answer - I think getting the OA registered through RERA is the only way to get any control. Once this is in place you can get rid of all the blood suckers attached to the service charge funds and write direct contracts between the Point Development Ltd company and service providers. The umbrella FM providers and OA management firms are way to greedy to stay in business.

Essentially developers and FM companies still perceive owners to be a load of mugs with too much money to care about being fleeced. Times have changed but they haven't.

Adapt or die. I would prefer they did the latter!

Remember to send your proxy vote
Did any point owners who didn't sign the addendum manage to get their keys?
RedWayne28thfloor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2011, 11:11 AM   #39
SGrCRAP
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 257
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzy View Post
Isn't there a Dubia law which states that an owners association must be setup and registered with Rera upon completion by the developer? If so can't the full list of owners be acquired from rera?
From our experience RERA couldn't give a monkeys about owners. We've seen that at other development too. The IOA went to see them recently and they laughed at them throughout the whole meeting. They said we had a fine building and it was up to us to sort things out - Go figure!

Select never provided an owners list at the Point as they said it contravened people's privacy or some shit like that. As sure as night follows day they will try to confuse and misdirect you as it provides the perfect cover to extract as much cash as possible.

Best plan is to get your IOA setup ASAP. Then get the building surveyed with someone like Scream!Point (will let you know what they're like) - at the same time get your AGM set up and appoint your OA board who must all be resident. You'll need a minimum of 5 people on the board. Once the surveys done and assuming all is OK (unlikely) you can get the OA formalised and become JOP compliant. Then you hoof all the parasites out and get some value for money by going direct. You will have to push and hound Select Group all the time otherwise they will default to "all ahead dead slow"


By the way - Select Group charged us about £100,000 sterling for a "management fee" at the Point - what did they do for their money you may ask? ... they outsourced the whole FM piece to CityServe who'd marked everything up. Cityserve then dropped in a load of sub contractors who Select Group didn't /couldn't/wouldn't manage. Select in conjunction with CityServe then totally over egged the pudding by appointing as many bodies on the ground as possible. I think there were 8 or 9 cleaners at one time, 2 full time security guards plus a concierge! What did they do? Nothing!
SGrCRAP no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2011, 01:45 PM   #40
Dubai_Steve
Dubai State of Mind
 
Dubai_Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,601
Likes (Received): 135

Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobudubai View Post
Please refer to clause 10.1..YOU MUST accept handover within 30 days max....etc
Is this valid? If one accepts handover, is it available -immediately- to occupy?
30 days from when 1st May or when you receive your handover notice?

Also, there are charges of AED 3000 to pay for oqood admin fee, even though the 1% law 13 fee has already been paid.

plus 1110 DEWA deposit and connection fee.
Dubai_Steve no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu