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Old October 13th, 2017, 11:07 AM   #21121
andy61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean-freo View Post
I fear this is a decision based on satisfying a minor voter base rather than sound planning.

You have to look at the hidden externalities of these extensions. They make themselves more apparent down the track when you start to have to cater for more roads, services etc to outlying suburbs that are popping up because suddenly there’s a train line within a 15 minute drive.

$700 mil becomes $900 in 5-7 years but the buck gets passed onto the new government and the old government wipes its hands clean.
Methinks those outlying suburbs are going to pop up regardless but grant it at a slower pace, the Metropolitan Region Scheme zoning suggests that. $700 m will probably become $900m but so will costings rise on any bored tunnels for a North East line. I can understand the ideal of higher densities and its something most here want including myself and Perth is slowly coming to realise its benefits and necessity, but if governments allow suburbs to be built then they need to be serviced. The argument you use could rightly have been canvassed to stop the building of the Joondalup and Mandurah lines. Those lines and the development next to them are far from perfect but building those lines are far from useless or just done to satisfy a voter base.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 11:41 AM   #21122
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Originally Posted by andy61 View Post
The argument you use could rightly have been canvassed to stop the building of the Joondalup and Mandurah lines. Those lines and the development next to them are far from perfect but building those lines are far from useless or just done to satisfy a voter base.


Except those lines service inner suburbs too.

Yes they also encouraged sprawl but those corridors were primed to sprawl by 70’s planning ideology and then given a helping hand by subsequent gov’s who incentivised building large detached houses instead of infill.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 11:44 AM   #21123
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McGowan really needs to stand up to Shorten and pressure him to support the Prime Minister and treasurers statements on changes to GST. Our federal labour representatives seem p***weak. There is not a whole lot of political advantage for the government here - any help to WA will be interpreted as a loss to the smaller states. I've not been impressed with much when it comes to the federal government, but they actually seem willing to stick their neck out for WA on this issue. If we trade systemic and permanent changes to the GST for an Ellenbrook Spur Line (that we could easily fund ourselves, maybe even the inner city underground line, if we had that GST in our back pocket) then perhaps we're mugs, just like the Eastern states think! I know this is bordering on being outside the transport forum - but transport and politics are inextricably linked in Australia, as pretty much everyone has mentioned.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 01:16 PM   #21124
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Originally Posted by sean-freo View Post
Except those lines service inner suburbs too.

Yes they also encouraged sprawl but those corridors were primed to sprawl by 70’s planning ideology and then given a helping hand by subsequent gov’s who incentivised building large detached houses instead of infill.
What you say is all true and there is Leederville, Glendalough and Canning Bridge stations located in the middle of a freeway servicing inner suburbs. Like I said I would like an underground railway to Morley but I have yet to see any money, proper costings or concrete plans. There still can be and there is infill in suburbs a bit further out. One of the reasons for urban sprawl is Nimby-ism, affordability and accessibility and hopefully we will see policies that can better address those issues.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 01:19 PM   #21125
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McGowan really needs to stand up to Shorten and pressure him to support the Prime Minister and treasurers statements on changes to GST. Our federal labour representatives seem p***weak. There is not a whole lot of political advantage for the government here - any help to WA will be interpreted as a loss to the smaller states. I've not been impressed with much when it comes to the federal government, but they actually seem willing to stick their neck out for WA on this issue. If we trade systemic and permanent changes to the GST for an Ellenbrook Spur Line (that we could easily fund ourselves, maybe even the inner city underground line, if we had that GST in our back pocket) then perhaps we're mugs, just like the Eastern states think! I know this is bordering on being outside the transport forum - but transport and politics are inextricably linked in Australia, as pretty much everyone has mentioned.
I would like those statements from those actually in government to become legislation. Do you know something in the wind that I haven't heard yet?
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Old October 13th, 2017, 01:59 PM   #21126
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I would like those statements from those actually in government to become legislation. Do you know something in the wind that I haven't heard yet?
No, just going on what I've read in the papers. The Prod Commission report was only released on Monday so it's early days. Regardless, it's encouraging that the government isn't sounding noncommittal or dismissive, particularly given the political tightrope it seems to walk every week. They know their facing electoral issues in South Australia, who would be a loser from any change. And what I can say - is that the GST issues could be reformed with surety and speed if there was bipartisan support. Shorten's rail line ploy suggests that won't be happening - unless electoral support for federal labour drops in Western Australia. It's almost as if he is banking on this issue being kind of complex (and the government's difficulty in selling complex policy), and maybe this rail line will just distract everyone for a year. Turnbull should start visiting more frequently.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 03:40 PM   #21127
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It won't happen under any government. Why? Because all states need to agree before any changes can occur. GST formula is a zero sum game. One guy wins while another loses. Good luck getting SA/TAS ect to sign up.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 03:51 PM   #21128
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At least it's some consolation from the Libs voting down the gold royalty increase, that other states will suffer the loss more than us . Including the Liberal ones that call us whingers.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 08:01 PM   #21129
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Quote:
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It won't happen under any government. Why? Because all states need to agree before any changes can occur. GST formula is a zero sum game. One guy wins while another loses. Good luck getting SA/TAS ect to sign up.

No, it doesn't. It's not that simple.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/factcheck...-to-ch/6359212
See this. I too thought that all states/territories needed to agree before changing something like the GST rate of 10% or including more things like fresh food etc. But the above factcheck suggests all of that can be sorted by parliament, without the states. I think in practice it would involve the states consent, as any increase in the GST would be probably be offset by reducing state taxes etc etc.

Regardless - for changes to how the grants commission divides the pool - state consent is not really a thing. The federal treasurer can simply direct the commission to divide the pool differently, or include things like gambling. It's literally that simple. See this - http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...9300ffca94c0e6

This issue is complicated, and the prod commission alluded to this, saying that not even gov bureaucrats seemed to understand it. The beauty of the commission report is that it stresses that the current arrangements are affecting the national economy, not just Western Australia - this gives the government a kind of moral imperative to act, as long as they can find a way to support SA and Tas in the interim. I think Shorten is hoping the complexity/general 'meh' feeling results in Western Australians giving up and being happy with 'look a shiny new train, something you can touch and use etc etc etc.'
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Old October 14th, 2017, 01:50 AM   #21130
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Quote:
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It won't happen under any government. Why? Because all states need to agree before any changes can occur. GST formula is a zero sum game. One guy wins while another loses. Good luck getting SA/TAS ect to sign up.
Not true. Been brought up many times that the Feds can change it on their own. Just political suicide to do so.....
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Old October 14th, 2017, 01:56 AM   #21131
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Is it really though? LNP have nothing to lose in SA/tas
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Old October 14th, 2017, 02:56 AM   #21132
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All Bill Shorten has offering is pretty much what the federal Libs have been providing since 2015 - infrastructure funds. None of these options fix the problem or help with the structure deficient facing the state budget. They cant give the state more money directly or the GCG will just reduce WA's GST payments.

Dilaz is right. Politically no one is going to spite SA, TAS, QLD, NSW and VIC just to appease WA. The Libs i see are currently playing lip service and wont make any changes until WA's share of GST returns to 'normal'. The report hints at changes in 2020. The iron ore price could be higher by then and Labor could be in government by then (3 years away anything can happen).

I foresee both parties losing federal votes to a 'WA first' political party.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 03:23 AM   #21133
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One difference I'm noticing with the asphalting of Tonkin highway with Northlink WA when compared to Gateway WA is that it appears that the full carriageway width (including emergency stopping lane) is being paved with full depth asphalt prior to the application of chip seal and wearing course(s).

With Gateway WA, only the 3 active traffic lanes were paved with full depth asphalt while the emergency stopping lane was paved later with less layers prior to the chip seal and wearing courses. This process is shown in the following video,



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey1wirL64_c

The significance of this may be to simplify converting the emergency stopping lane into a 4th traffic lane in future under ALR and at the same time allow enough space in the median for the Ellenbrook line as a spur from the Midland Line. Key to this will be if the median width north of Collier Road is similar to the gap between the Collier Road bridges. If that's the case, road pavement may not have to be removed to accommodate the median rail.

The Gateway section of Tonkin will ultimately have a 4th lane added in each direction in the median which is what would also happen along the Northlink section if the median isn't used for urban rail.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 03:45 AM   #21134
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NSW is on board with GST change. They too are worried as their share will fall in the coming years (though only to 79 cents). Victoria can be convinced, but I agree Queensland are harder.
As Dillaz said, the federal coalition holds no seats in TAS, the ACT or NT and only 4 in SA, in that sense there's less to lose.
The report suggests changes could be made quickly, but that would cost the other states significantly more. I don't think changes should be made immediately. We are better off with a phased solution so the smaller states don't get left in the lurch, but it needs to be mapped out clearly so that it doesn't just get altered by the speculative iron ore price.
I can appreciate that everyone would be cynical on this matter, especially after the PM said WA should have a floor 2 years ago and then did nothing about it.
Still, if the treasurer was going to put this in the too hard bucket I don't think he would have given such a robust response earlier in the week. They wouldn't raise hopes again like this. Also, if GST reform grows the pie, the smaller states will eventually get more.
A WA GST party would be fascinating to watch next year. The worst situation would be if the federal treasurer kept saying nice things, to keep such a party off his back, but actually did nothing. We will need to watch carefully for this.
Finally - there is little point in building new trains if we can't diversify our economy and keep growing, independent of mining booms. Shorten either doesn't understand or doesn't care. It seems to suit him keeping us as a quarry to fund the rest of the country, he can throw us a bone every election cycle. It's imperative that federal labour risk losing their 5 seats in WA. It would be less likely that labour can form government federally if they go backwards in our state.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 05:22 AM   #21135
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How about distributing income tax and company tax on a per capita basis? These account for over 60% of total taxation for all levels of government. GST is only about 13%.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]&num=&view=

The GST was introduced in Australia on 1 July 2000 by the then Howard Liberal government, supported by the Richard Court Liberal government, supported by voters in WA and by the West Australian newspaper. Opposed by Labor under Kim Beazley.

Shorten's proposal seems the easiest to implement. Shorten is promising to invest in a $1.6 billion Fair Share for WA Funds.
WA receives 34 cents for every dollar of GST revenue it collects, and while Labor's policy does not change the current formula, Shorten says it will bring commonwealth funding for the state up to the equivalent of a 70 cent floor.

Under a federal Labor government, the Fair Share for WA Fund will be legislated and include a statutory obligation to invest all proceeds into WA infrastructure projects.
"This funding is above and beyond existing commonwealth funding, and will be exempted from future Commonwealth Grants Commission assessments.

"We will help Western Australia without hurting the eastern states."

Shorten says the investment would be paid for by policies that make the tax system fairer and improve the budget position.
"This includes reforms to negative gearing and capital gains tax concessions, closing loopholes for multinationals and limiting tax minimisation through incoming splitting from discretionary trusts,"

AND how about talking about Transport and Infrastructure on this thread.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 06:19 AM   #21136
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Reid x Tonkin

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Old October 14th, 2017, 07:30 AM   #21137
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I see Main Roads' 'scorched earth' policy is still going strong...
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Old October 14th, 2017, 07:54 AM   #21138
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Quote:
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What you say is all true and there is Leederville, Glendalough and Canning Bridge stations located in the middle of a freeway servicing inner suburbs. Like I said I would like an underground railway to Morley but I have yet to see any money, proper costings or concrete plans. There still can be and there is infill in suburbs a bit further out. One of the reasons for urban sprawl is Nimby-ism, affordability and accessibility and hopefully we will see policies that can better address those issues.
From what I've heard (which is about 3 weeks old) they're still debating doing a tunnel to Morley vs a spur. The other thing I heard is that Main Roads wants to build the North Lake Rd bridge at the same time as the PTA wants to build the finger platform, which is causing a bit of friction as the former goes over the latter.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 07:58 AM   #21139
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Latest Northlink map available on Mainroads.

Interested to note the shared cycle path will go all the way to Muchea.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 08:27 AM   #21140
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-1...leader/9047566

...
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