#Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project

[annman]

As Lydon says, boils down to government incompetence and eToll sky-high administrative costs.

Like walking into a electronics store, paying for a new TV, then being told the TV is broken, but they'll provide you with a new flat-screen, if you pay for the previous TV AND the new flat-screen.

This is the premise here. People are pissed off because government is pissing all over their taxes, yet asking for more. It's pleading poverty, where the empty coffers are caused by their own mismanagement.

Why are some people finding it SO DAMN HARD to grasp this simple concept?

Or is it again, SA's favourite national sport: Being taken from behind metaphorically. Dr. Mamphela Ramphele just gave a speech this week about S.Africans failing themselves, because they eventually accept mediocrity, capitulate to everything, give in, bend over and just "take it."

Yes... this behaviour is exactly what I'll condone... NOT! This is not just about eTolls, please finally get it. Or perhaps I just don't get it, because I was born in America, but have S.Africa deep in my heart; but I can tell you this from a position of loving all of you and loving this country: If you continue to bend over, guess what, this government is going to keep calling you "my bitch." That simple! *Crude Alert*

[Lydon]

Originally Posted by greenandgold

Western Cape freeways are good but not as big as these new Gauteng roads.
I have seen them and trust me they're worth paying for.. they're well built and are well light at night.

It would be very unfair to spend R20 billion on a 60km of freeway then expect the rest of to be content when we only need a few hundred millions to fix our regional roads in our provinces.

If the government can spend R20 billion in GP then they should at least spend that much per province.. If that is too much then no single province deserves such treatment not unless they'll be paying the bill themselves.

The Western Cape's freeways don't need to be as big as Gauteng's as they don't serve as big a population as Gauteng's do. Both provinces have roads scaled to their populations and subsequent needs. If the Western Cape can keep its roads smooth, then I fail to see why the same can't be achieved in Gauteng without the need for tolls.

[annman]

Originally Posted by Lydon

The Western Cape's freeways don't need to be as big as Gauteng's as they don't serve as big a population as Gauteng's do. Both provinces have roads scaled to their populations and subsequent needs. If the Western Cape can keep its roads smooth, then I fail to see why the same can't be achieved in Gauteng without the need for tolls.

Well, the argument GreenandGold made was fatally flawed, as Gauteng has triple the tax-base and almost 10million residents, compared to Cape Town's 3.5million. Thus, income generation for infrastructure versus complexity of infrastructure needed ends up balancing out.

Thus again, the issue becomes governance ability and not intricacy of the freeway network.

[Econ77]

Originally Posted by HigerBigger

The proposal to increase the fuel price is very interesting as it will have to be for the full country. It can never only be for Gauteng or you will see every garage in the Vereeniging and Vanderbijlpark closing down because the saving to cross the Vaal River to fill up in Sasolburg will be massive.
Many problems actually exist with the fuel levy, and I will try to mention a few:

1. Vehicles from Botswana and Zimbabwe already run with extended tanks that allow them to reach Durban (on all the roads without toll) without contributing one cent to this economy.
2. My next car will be a Golf Bluemotion so I will consume at least 60% less fuel even while driving the same distance - so that Government will loose out on my fuel tax and in future all will have to pay more
3. The poor people that run old less effecient cars will pay the majority of the "toll" or fuel tax
4. How will we tax electric cars that use the roads

Very good point, and not something I've considered. Still the fact remains:

Gauteng has an population of about 11 million, living in only 18,178 km2, with GDP per capita of R80,198.
Western cape has a population of about 5 million, living in 129,462 km2, with a GDP per capita of R72,031.
(Wikipedia)

The western cape being able to provide more services than Gauteng, especially infrastructure, is in my opinion ridiculous, and not something I can explain.

Even the basic services are more subsidized in Cape Town (as far as I'm aware) than in Gauteng. This cannot all be because of corruption?

[Hennie]

Originally Posted by greenandgold

Western Cape freeways are good but not as big as these new Gauteng roads.
I have seen them and trust me they're worth paying for.. they're well built and are well light at night.

It would be very unfair to spend R20 billion on a 60km of freeway then expect the rest of to be content when we only need a few hundred millions to fix our regional roads in our provinces.

If the government can spend R20 billion in GP then they should at least spend that much per province.. If that is too much then no single province deserves such treatment not unless they'll be paying the bill themselves.

Almost as unfair that Gauteng is the biggest tax generating province? Why should we not have some of that money stay in the province. Many Gauteng tax cows commute over 60km a day, I am sure all of them would love to live in the Western Cape or in Pofadder where people can walk to work. That would only be possible if most businesses locate there, which is not going to happen.

Perhaps we should divide the cost of the road by the number of people using it? Perhaps not, one might find that the free N7 my money pays for (but which I never use) works out more expensive per vehicle than a 8-lane freeway.

I maintain that ths will generate a billing nightmare and that there is going to be a lot of inconvenience caused. If our authorities cannot even read an electricity meter with 6 digits without messing it up then how are they going to cope with this?

[goliath01]

Don't say that Hennie, they'll label you a pessimist as they did with me and the others.

[greenandgold]

Well I agree about the tax base being above national avarage, its not something we can argue on as the province contributes 33% of the national GDP..
Gauteng cities have higher budgets than most national towns already, even a town like Benoni has a bigger municipal budget that any Mpumalanga town..

Based on that percentage contributed, the the government should have spent 33% of the R20 billion in Gauteng then spent the rest everywhere... I complain about the amount of money that was spent in a single province, I complain about the fact that someone is proposing that I should pay for the bill while living in the Lowveld bushes and majority of the roads are old and wornout... I complain about that why should we pay for our own expensive roads when others are given the option not to.

The money has been spent, the government has to pay back to its international loan sharks. We can say they're incompetent but its too late because someone has to be billed and it has to be the one using the road, not me in the Lowveld or Mr Kobus who drives a tractor on his dusty farm or some poor gogo in Limpopo who doesn't even know what a freeway is.

[Awesome.e]

What about.... Increase the car license registration fee (once off a year), lets say on average up by R1000 per car (depending on the car value)?

[greenandgold]

Originally Posted by Awesome.e

What about.... Increase the car license registration fee (once off a year), lets say on average up by R1000 per car (depending on the car value)?

Everyone will drop the GP registration plate, NW and MP provinces are 40 minutes drive from Pretoria.

[annman]

You can't simply drop your provincial plate, use the FICA act in registration confirming home residence, simple!

[greenandgold]

lol I already have 3 physical addresses, One for KZN, one for GP and MP.. I also have 4 postal addresses.. Im not even trying to fraud anyone.. Changing a physical address for Gauteng residents shouldn't be hard, they often have old houses or relatives in other provinces.

[HigerBigger]

Tory backbenchers call for party to examine pay as you drive charges

People who only use their car for short hops in their neighbourhood should pay less in motoring tax than long distance drivers such as travelling salesmen, a Tory MP has said.
Andrea Leadsom, Tory MP for South Northamptonshire, is among a number of Tory backbenchers calling for reform on how motoring is paid for.
She has thrown her weight behind proposals to charge drivers by mileage, while other members of the The Free Enterprise group are calling for the Government to examine extensive road tolling.
Norman Baker, a transport minister, is pushing for road pricing to be included in the Liberal Democrat manifesto.
Road pricing was a flagship policy of the Blair Government but was swiftly dropped by Gordon Brown as he bowed to the motorists’ backlash which saw 1.8 million drivers signing a petition calling for the plan to be ditched.
A road pricing scheme would see “pay as you drive” charging for motorists. Labour considered a number of options including satellite technology to track cars’ movements via a black box or erecting a network of roadside gantries which would register a vehicle as it drove past with the aid of an electronic tag on the windscreen.
The interest in road pricing comes with the Coalition carrying out a series of reviews on motoring taxation looking at bringing private investment into the road network and reforming the tax disc system.
"I would certainly support toll roads," Mrs Leadsom said. "I have just been driving in Europe with my family where everybody pays tolls.
"Personally `i think road pricing is the way forward. I think it is hardly fair that people who only drive around the corner to see their friends pay the same as a travelling salesman.
“There should be some payback for people who don’t use major roads.”
But I would not want to see an expensive form of congestion charging."
A network of toll roads, she added, would be the best way to get private finance to pay for much needed infrastructure in the short term, before moving onto a more extensive scheme which would see charges for using major routes, but not small local links.
"If you are looking ahead you could use pricing to reward the behaviour we want to, such as getting people to take the train."
She is one of the members of the Free Enterprise Group of Tory backbenchers who earlier this year said the £1.1 billion raised in road tolls could be used to cut fuel duty. This, the MPs said, would introduce a “wider degree of market pricing into road usage.
Motorists currently pay £35 billion in road tax and fuel duty at the moment. The cost of a tax disc ranges from zero to £400 a year, depending on the car's carbon emissions.
There are only a handful of tolls in Britain. The best known is the M6 relief road, which costs motorists £5.50. In addition fees are charged for crossing the Thames at Dartford, south East London, the Severn Crossing and the Humber Bridge.
However the Scottish Government has just abolished all tolls in its crossings.
“If you look at how roads are financed in Europe, there are only three countries where the state pays for the road surface,” said Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP for Spelthorne.
“We expect people who use the trains to pay a little bit towards it, even though a large part does come from the taxpayer.
“Our approach is you should reduce fuel duty, which should reduce its impact.
“Getting private finance into this makes sense. To expect the taxpayer to pay for our roads without making any distinction between those who do and don’t use it is unfair.
“I think if there was a real debate we could see a cultural shift.”
Charlie Elphicke, Tory MP for Dover, and another member of the group, is another strong suporter of toll roads. "The M6 toll has been relatively successful,' he said.
Mr Elphicke added that private finance should not only be used for new roads but tolling should be considered where existing roads are widened. "While public finances are in the state they are in, it is something worth looking at.
"There is definitely a case for taking these ideas forward. But I recognise this is a very sensitive issue.
"This is not an idea without some benefit, given the current economic reality."
Mark Pritchard, Tory MP for The Wrekin added: “Toll roads have a part to play in a mixed economy of of providing new roads as long as there are safeguards about the financial viability and the prices are kept affordable.”
Earlier this year The Daily Telegraph disclosed that the Office of Budget Responsibility had warned the drive towards cleaner, greener and more fuel efficient motoring was likely to see the Treasury facing a £600 million shortfall in fuel duty.
The Liberal Democrats have long supported the principle of road pricing and Norman Baker, the party’s minister at the Department for Transport, is backing a scheme which would see charges being imposed for using motorways.
His blueprint would see gantries put alongside the carriageway which would enable drivers to be charged for using the network based on how far they drove and the car’s carbon emissions.
“We want this to be fair to the motorist,” he said. “A lot of work was done by the last Government. We had this as a manifesto commitment and I want to make sure that it is a commitment in the next election.
“I want it to be revenue neutral. Motorists will see this as a fair deal. I would like us to charge on a per mile bases on motorways.
“I think it is inevitable and I think all parties will come round to it,” he said.
However senior Labour sources, bruised by the party being accused of waging a war on the motorist while in Government, are reluctant to resurrect the policy.
Motoring groups are divided on the issue of road pricing. “We have always been concerned that a Government which initially reduced fuel duty to soften the blow might raise it a couple of years later,” said an AA spokesman.
“It is an issue of how much trust one has in Government.”
Professor Stephen Glaister, director of the RAC Foundation, however, supported the change.
”With more traffic and less taxpayer money predicted for the future something needs to change. Therefore we should at least discuss replacing Vehicle Excise and fuel duty with pay-as-you-go as a potential solution even if it is discarded later.
“ It is hard to see how better roads to serve the growth agenda can be funded without it. ”

So you may find all roads in the UK as E-toll roads in the future.

[annman]

Completely comparable. EU/UK and world-class public transit versus Johannesburg. Gauteng has viable alternatives?

[Hennie]

Actually it must be the other way round. A car with 4 people travelling to a long distance holiday destination runs far more economically than one stuck in peak hour traffic daily. A good commuter public transport is better than building over-sized freeways whereas putting 4 people on a plane is certainly not as economical in fuel terms (especially if you factor in car hire) than just driving the distance.

What should be discouraged are sole-occupant cars. For that we need something better than we have, a Metrorail which runs reliably, a bus service which does not take 90 minutes to complete a 20 km journey (and runs no service outside peak).

[ed110220]

I'm a little surprised that with all the widening work and improvements to the Brakfontein, Elands, Reading and other interchanges there is nothing about upgrading Buccleuch. It's probably the busiest interchange in the country and I would have thought could have done with a 4-level stack.