daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy (aug.2, 2013) | DMCA policy | flipboard magazine

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > European Forums > UK & Ireland Architecture Forums > Projects and Construction > North East England > Newcastle Metro Area

Newcastle Metro Area For Newcastle, N Tyneside, Gateshead, S Tyneside, South Northumberland

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 13th, 2011, 09:45 AM   #2041
Hacman
Registered User
 
Hacman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Newcastle on Tyne
Posts: 416
Likes (Received): 25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyr View Post
That was a daft idea
That was a pointless post...

Whilst it's perhaps not the best idea ever, it was for a good cause and you certainly can't blame whoever listed the ticket for trying!

Jon
__________________
"Invention, my dear friends, is 93% perspiration, 6% electricity, 4% evaporation, and 2% butterscotch ripple."
Hacman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2011, 01:40 PM   #2042
newcastlepubs
Light touch moderator
 
newcastlepubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 10,999
Likes (Received): 927

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manors View Post
Vast majority of the dodgers are well known to the inspectors - was once at South Gosforth Control collecting some documents and there was a girl there paying three fines at once - she'd made the same trip three days in a row and got caught three times.

Staff who are authorised to give fines can check addresses but there will be a few who give the name of a friend/relative and their address.

Better way would be to increase the fine to something like £500 - that would be a better deterrent. When you think a 3z day saver costs £4, you only need to make 5 return journeys to cover the cost of the current fine.
I agree with you, but looking at some of the fare dodgers I ve seen caught they remind me of those I see at the 'palais de justice' being given 6 months to pay a 50 quid fine. Perhaps an exclusion type order backed up by police if the penalty remains unpaid ?

looking at the number of demands I have had for unpaid penalty tickets I am doubtful that the collectors are that skilful at checking addresses [or perhaps the system is wonky]. My reading would be that so long as you give any address that would be ok - that they don t cross check name and address.
newcastlepubs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 06:45 PM   #2043
shiggy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 158
Likes (Received): 0

west end doesnt have a good bus service!!! have you ever tried to catch a bus from jesmond.

also expanding the metro is a massive cost. £3billion to take it up to washington and i bet that would rise.
shiggy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 11:47 PM   #2044
Manors
Between Manors and Byker
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 569
Likes (Received): 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastlepubs View Post
I agree with you, but looking at some of the fare dodgers I ve seen caught they remind me of those I see at the 'palais de justice' being given 6 months to pay a 50 quid fine. Perhaps an exclusion type order backed up by police if the penalty remains unpaid ?

looking at the number of demands I have had for unpaid penalty tickets I am doubtful that the collectors are that skilful at checking addresses [or perhaps the system is wonky]. My reading would be that so long as you give any address that would be ok - that they don t cross check name and address.
One of the recurring problems we were having was 'vagrants' at Monument getting Daysavers off the floor and selling them on at a lower price in the evening. Some of them were getting quite aggressive when people told them to bugger off. We knew it was happening but couldn't do much until someone was around and saw it happening, so we could get an order to kick them off the station. Normally as soon as they saw the orange hi-viz they'd scarper.

The real problem comes from when the system was built - it was designed to be an open style system with minimal staffing, but over the years management have come to realise that there has to be a certain level of staffing to reduce fare evasion. Every time I see the monthly reports the lowest rating is always for staffing, which is no surprise. It has been a bit better recently but far too many times you can get a Metro for a few weeks and never see an inspector anywhere.
Manors no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011, 11:51 PM   #2045
Manors
Between Manors and Byker
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 569
Likes (Received): 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
west end doesnt have a good bus service!!! have you ever tried to catch a bus from jesmond.

also expanding the metro is a massive cost. £3billion to take it up to washington and i bet that would rise.
Where do you get this £3bn figure from?
Manors no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 02:16 AM   #2046
newcastlepubs
Light touch moderator
 
newcastlepubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 10,999
Likes (Received): 927

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manors View Post
One of the recurring problems we were having was 'vagrants' at Monument getting Daysavers off the floor and selling them on at a lower price in the evening. Some of them were getting quite aggressive when people told them to bugger off. We knew it was happening but couldn't do much until someone was around and saw it happening, so we could get an order to kick them off the station. Normally as soon as they saw the orange hi-viz they'd scarper.
I d not thought of looking for one for a free trip. I'm going to generalise here but I reckon you'd not need a masters in criminology to profile the fare dodgers. Nothin' wrong with shell suits but.... It s a pit that the collectors couldn't go incognito. I'm usually the last one to promote privatisation, but contract fare complaince/collection out to a third party and put 'em on a percentage of the recovery - perhaps some of the clampers that are slowly being put out of business. That would do the trick. Though hopefully the new barriers will also help.

Quote:
Every time I see the monthly reports the lowest rating is always for staffing
FWIW I ve always found metro staff to be fine, perfectly pleasant.

Here's what is probably a silly metro question. I travel a lot, often in central and eastern Europe. Most [though not all] metros seem to use what I would call a centre platform. A single, shared platform where the trains are, as it were, to the outside. Here [Ncl, London] most seem to be 1 platform per line - trains to the inside.

The single platform seemed to me to be a simpler, perhaps cheaper solution, easier to swap trains, only one set of stairs etc needed instead of two. So:
  • Am I right in seeing the Europe - UK distinction
  • Are there reasons that the 1 platform per train is 'better' - why would a designer chose it over what on the face of it seems a simpler solution

Any thoughts appreciated.
newcastlepubs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 02:29 AM   #2047
merleb
BANNED
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,289
Likes (Received): 47

Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastlepubs View Post
I d not thought of looking for one for a free trip. I'm going to generalise here but I reckon you'd not need a masters in criminology to profile the fare dodgers. Nothin' wrong with shell suits but.... It s a pit that the collectors couldn't go incognito. I'm usually the last one to promote privatisation, but contract fare complaince/collection out to a third party and put 'em on a percentage of the recovery - perhaps some of the clampers that are slowly being put out of business. That would do the trick. Though hopefully the new barriers will also help.

FWIW I ve always found metro staff to be fine, perfectly pleasant.

Here's what is probably a silly metro question. I travel a lot, often in central and eastern Europe. Most [though not all] metros seem to use what I would call a centre platform. A single, shared platform where the trains are, as it were, to the outside. Here [Ncl, London] most seem to be 1 platform per line - trains to the inside.

The single platform seemed to me to be a simpler, perhaps cheaper solution, easier to swap trains, only one set of stairs etc needed instead of two. So:
  • Am I right in seeing the Europe - UK distinction
  • Are there reasons that the 1 platform per train is 'better' - why would a designer chose it over what on the face of it seems a simpler solution

Any thoughts appreciated.
Whether you can actually have an island platform depends on whether the up and down tracks run parallel to one another. In London many tracks do not because of the criss-crossing of lines.

Many old railway stations, such as Elswick, did have island platforms, but these also cause their own problems when used on overland routes - ie footbridges to get to the islands.

merleb no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 12:55 PM   #2048
Manors
Between Manors and Byker
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 569
Likes (Received): 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastlepubs View Post
I d not thought of looking for one for a free trip. I'm going to generalise here but I reckon you'd not need a masters in criminology to profile the fare dodgers. Nothin' wrong with shell suits but.... It s a pit that the collectors couldn't go incognito. I'm usually the last one to promote privatisation, but contract fare complaince/collection out to a third party and put 'em on a percentage of the recovery - perhaps some of the clampers that are slowly being put out of business. That would do the trick. Though hopefully the new barriers will also help.
You can normally spot them a mile off, mainly due to the fact they'll probably be doing something else that gives them away (either drinking, swearing, putting feet on seats, smoking on the platforms, spitting etc). I've been at places like West Jesmond when I wasn't on duty and heard the students there talking about not paying for a ticket, and a few years back we had the guy who was apparently a millionaire but didn't want to pay for a ticket. G4S (Group 4 Security) work for Northern doing pretty much what you say - outsourced ticket checks. However Northern have a lot of problems with them as they haven't been trained very well in the ins and outs of ticketing - so people who have a valid ticket are often accused of not having one. Not a good image for the company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastlepubs
FWIW I ve always found metro staff to be fine, perfectly pleasant.
Think it is mainly due to staff availability - if you can't see them then you give them a lower score. All the staff that I know and have worked with are good at what they do, just a shame there isn't more of them on the system. TBH some of the time it can be quite repetetive when you get asked the same questions end on end, but helps the day go faster. Always better helping someone out instead of kicking people off the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastlepubs
Here's what is probably a silly metro question. I travel a lot, often in central and eastern Europe. Most [though not all] metros seem to use what I would call a centre platform. A single, shared platform where the trains are, as it were, to the outside. Here [Ncl, London] most seem to be 1 platform per line - trains to the inside.

The single platform seemed to me to be a simpler, perhaps cheaper solution, easier to swap trains, only one set of stairs etc needed instead of two. So:
  • Am I right in seeing the Europe - UK distinction
  • Are there reasons that the 1 platform per train is 'better' - why would a designer chose it over what on the face of it seems a simpler solution
Any thoughts appreciated.
When you're building tunnels, island platforms normally take up a lot less room, and when building tunnels the bigger you go the more it will cost. If you look at Haymarket, Monument, Central and to a degree Gateshead, the actual space used is very small indeed. Some beter examples can be seen on the Glasgow Subway, where the island platforms are very small indeed, but this has a negative effect on how many people can be allowed onto a platform in the first place. Clapham North and Clapham Common are probably the best two examples where an island platform has been fitted into what basically is a single bore tunnel, although not the best design for safety.

On the New York subway a lot of stations have both an island platform and outer platforms, but these cater for local and express services in a different way. At certain stations you can change from a local service to an express by just crossing the island platform - indeed most commuters have worked out the precise doors to be at so they can rush across to get on the faster train - often the express and local pull in at the same time. Quite fun to do as well!

Stations at St James, Jesmond and Manors are different due to the way that the tunnels were built, so bit more room for two seperate platforms. Gateshead probably should really have two seperate platforms, and there certainly is the space but must have been some reason for choosing an island there.

On the surface stations, most of the stations that were built specifically for the Metro do not have island platforms, apart from Northumberland Park, Airport and Pelaw (that I can think of now). Hving two seperate platfroms means the line can be kept straight, and platforms are easier to construct.
Manors no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 01:41 PM   #2049
newcastlepubs
Light touch moderator
 
newcastlepubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 10,999
Likes (Received): 927

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manors View Post
You can normally spot them a mile off, mainly due to the fact they'll probably be doing something else that gives them away (either drinking, swearing, putting feet on seats, smoking on the platforms, spitting etc). I've been at places like West Jesmond when I wasn't on duty and heard the students there talking about not paying for a ticket, and a few years back we had the guy who was apparently a millionaire but didn't want to pay for a ticket. G4S (Group 4 Security) work for Northern doing pretty much what you say - outsourced ticket checks. However Northern have a lot of problems with them as they haven't been trained very well in the ins and outs of ticketing - so people who have a valid ticket are often accused of not having one. Not a good image for the company.
Hopefully 'proper' barriers will help. I assume they will be at all stations sooner or later.


Quote:
When you're building tunnels, island platforms normally take up a lot less room, and when building tunnels the bigger you go the more it will cost. If you look at Haymarket, Monument, Central and to a degree Gateshead, the actual space used is very small indeed. Some beter examples can be seen on the Glasgow Subway, where the island platforms are very small indeed, but this has a negative effect on how many people can be allowed onto a platform in the first place. Clapham North and Clapham Common are probably the best two examples where an island platform has been fitted into what basically is a single bore tunnel, although not the best design for safety.

Stations at St James, Jesmond and Manors are different due to the way that the tunnels were built, so bit more room for two seperate platforms. Gateshead probably should really have two seperate platforms, and there certainly is the space but must have been some reason for choosing an island there.

On the surface stations, most of the stations that were built specifically for the Metro do not have island platforms, apart from Northumberland Park, Airport and Pelaw (that I can think of now). Hving two seperate platfroms means the line can be kept straight, and platforms are easier to construct.
That makes sense. That the separate platforms mean you can run a straighter line. Haymarket had not struck me as an island [I was thinking of the open island type] but of course you re right - and it is all very tightly packaged there.
newcastlepubs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 03:10 PM   #2050
Manors
Between Manors and Byker
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 569
Likes (Received): 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastlepubs View Post
Hopefully 'proper' barriers will help. I assume they will be at all stations sooner or later.
All the main stations will have them in Newcastle city centre, so St James, Haymarket, Monument and Central, along with Jesmond and Manors which are close enough for fare dodgers to walk into town from. North Shields is also getting them, and there are a few others like South Gosforth.




Quote:
Originally Posted by newcastlepubs
That makes sense. That the separate platforms mean you can run a straighter line. Haymarket had not struck me as an island [I was thinking of the open island type] but of course you re right - and it is all very tightly packaged there.
Haymarket is a funny station, as the platforms are underneath St Thomas's Church, but the lift shaft of course has to go down vertically from the concourse - that's why the platform towards Jesmond is one of the longest on the system. Would have been easier to move the platforms further south but would have been too close to Monument and also the Prudhoe Street crossover couldn't have been constructed.
Manors no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 11:08 PM   #2051
cranfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 956
Likes (Received): 41

Haymarket must be just about as close to Monument as Monument is to Bank in London?
cranfan no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 15th, 2011, 11:31 PM   #2052
Manors
Between Manors and Byker
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 569
Likes (Received): 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by cranfan View Post
Haymarket must be just about as close to Monument as Monument is to Bank in London?
The nearest two on the system are St James and Monument (contrary to what someone on Wikipedia has put), although only by a few 100m. Most of the stations between Haymarket and Central/St. James and Manors are very close together.

You'll often find people turning up at Central going to St James who don't know their way around, so use the Metro to go a couple of stops. Had to help someone at Manors recently who was going to the Premier Inn, and he'd got on at Monument to go one stop.
Manors no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2011, 11:07 AM   #2053
BerlinGeordie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Berlin
Posts: 318
Likes (Received): 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manors View Post
The nearest two on the system are St James and Monument (contrary to what someone on Wikipedia has put), although only by a few 100m.
Are you sure? I'm looking at a map right now that shows 480 m between both SJM-MMT and PLI-UNI, more than SUN-PLI (400 m) and both HAY-MMT and FAW-KSP (430m).
BerlinGeordie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2011, 11:25 AM   #2054
CDB00
Registered User
 
CDB00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 183
Likes (Received): 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerlinGeordie View Post
Are you sure? I'm looking at a map right now that shows 480 m between both SJM-MMT and PLI-UNI, more than SUN-PLI (400 m) and both HAY-MMT and FAW-KSP (430m).
KSP=Kingston Park? Surely you mean Fawdon to Wansbeck not to Kingston Park?
CDB00 está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2011, 12:37 PM   #2055
Manors
Between Manors and Byker
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Posts: 569
Likes (Received): 19

Quote:
Originally Posted by BerlinGeordie View Post
Are you sure? I'm looking at a map right now that shows 480 m between both SJM-MMT and PLI-UNI, more than SUN-PLI (400 m) and both HAY-MMT and FAW-KSP (430m).
Depends which map you're looking at - I've got the track chainage on a file somewhere so will dig it out.
Manors no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2011, 02:52 PM   #2056
Steve Ellwood
Moderator
 
Steve Ellwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne/Whitley Bay
Posts: 37,987
Likes (Received): 4112

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manors View Post
Snipped.. Would have been easier to move the platforms further south but would have been too close to Monument and also the Prudhoe Street crossover couldn't have been constructed.
What is the Prudhoe Street crossover - please excuse my ignorance
__________________
Regards

Steve Ellwood
www.steve-ellwood.org.uk
Steve Ellwood no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2011, 03:09 PM   #2057
newcastlepubs
Light touch moderator
 
newcastlepubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 10,999
Likes (Received): 927

Just found this. Not quite Simon Patterson's Great Bear, but quite good fun

newcastlepubs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2011, 03:19 PM   #2058
Percy Trimmer
Modern Antiquarian
 
Percy Trimmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North Shields
Posts: 815
Likes (Received): 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Ellwood View Post
What is the Prudhoe Street crossover - please excuse my ignorance
Percy Trimmer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2011, 03:24 PM   #2059
Steve Ellwood
Moderator
 
Steve Ellwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne/Whitley Bay
Posts: 37,987
Likes (Received): 4112

Quote:
Originally Posted by Percy Trimmer View Post
Thanks for that, I hadn't realised it existed - good one to remember for a trivia quiz
__________________
Regards

Steve Ellwood
www.steve-ellwood.org.uk
Steve Ellwood no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 16th, 2011, 03:25 PM   #2060
newcastlepubs
Light touch moderator
 
newcastlepubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 10,999
Likes (Received): 927

Cheers, now excuse my ignorance - what does it do ? I am guessing allowing trains to switch lines ?

.

Last edited by Newcastle Historian; December 16th, 2011 at 07:51 PM.
newcastlepubs no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
light rail, light railways, london tube, london underground, metro, metro systems, newcastle, newcastle transport, paris metro, rail, railways, the tube, trains, transport, tube, tyne & wear metro, underground

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:06 AM. • styleid: 14


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium