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Old October 13th, 2017, 08:59 AM   #601
matrix2020
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Lets start with the fact that LA is not the whole America.
Not all of USA is big cities with traffic jams at the morning.
Safety has nothing to do with suburbs.
In fact suburbs with middle class/upper middle class residents are safer then inner cities.
Sure there is nothing to see in the suburb, but then again they are not built for tourists.
They are built to let their residents live comfortable lives (and they succeed in that task pretty well).
I have been in a similar suburb in Toronto a few years ago, and truth is be told its a pretty nice to place to live.
Truth be told, the richest neighborhoods in Israel (such as Savyon) look almost like an exact replica of an average american upper middle class suburb
The only difference is, in US almost everyone can afford to live in such neighborhood while in Israel it is only the super rich.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 11:25 AM   #602
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While I agree that the European model is better for Israel than the American (and also agree with Matrix that the Singaporean model is even better, not so much with Hong Kong) – American commute times and traffic jams are also often overstated. My friend and I drove from San Jose to SF in the middle of peak hour for a few days straight, it took between 45 and 90 minutes. This is the same distance as north Tel Aviv to Matam in Haifa, and one of the busiest traffic corridors in all of America. If these are their most insane "jams", then their situation is still extremely good. We actually encountered zero jams in LA, but driving there is generally tedious, and distances are huge because of the insane sprawl.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 07:03 PM   #603
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The white Elephants
https://youtu.be/6j61d2UQud0
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Old October 13th, 2017, 10:31 PM   #604
chali1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
Truth be told, the richest neighborhoods in Israel (such as Savyon) look almost like an exact replica of an average american upper middle class suburb
The only difference is, in US almost everyone can afford to live in such neighborhood while in Israel it is only the super rich.
Savyon is like a miniature recreation of Bel Air or Brentwood - I wouldn't say the average American suburb is like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
They are built to let their residents live comfortable lives (and they succeed in that task pretty well).
I have been in a similar suburb in Toronto a few years ago, and truth is be told its a pretty nice to place to live.
In Western European countries, most people have moved out to the suburbs as well. This idea of a contrast between Western Europe and America on this issue does not exist.

The difference is that in Western Europe, the cities themselves (to which suburbs are attached) are usually nicer than the equivalents in the US.

It's wonderful to live in a suburb, if you can drive some 15 minutes and be in a great city. But if you live in a suburb in the middle of nowhere that is rather less fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
European cities appear to be too gray and depressing to my taste.
Seeing entire streets built with almost identical houses like they have in London or in Berlin is definitely not something I would want to see happening in Israel.
It's not something to generalize. Walk around in the wealthiest suburb of London - there is amazing diversity of beautiful architecture, although with a unifying style
https://www.google.ru/maps/@51.55821...7i13312!8i6656

Last edited by chali1; October 14th, 2017 at 04:29 AM.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 02:34 AM   #605
avivster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
Lets start with the fact that LA is not the whole America.
Not all of USA is big cities with traffic jams at the morning.
Safety has nothing to do with suburbs.
In fact suburbs with middle class/upper middle class residents are safer then inner cities.
Sure there is nothing to see in the suburb, but then again they are not built for tourists.
They are built to let their residents live comfortable lives (and they succeed in that task pretty well).
I have been in a similar suburb in Toronto a few years ago, and truth is be told its a pretty nice to place to live.
Truth be told, the richest neighborhoods in Israel (such as Savyon) look almost like an exact replica of an average american upper middle class suburb
The only difference is, in US almost everyone can afford to live in such neighborhood while in Israel it is only the super rich.
thats not really true. you can get a private house in Hadera area for half of the cost of apartment similar number
of rooms in central tlv. hadera is 30 minute drive or train so its like a suburb in north american metro sizes.
same in the other metros. in BSV a private house will cost only 20% more than a regular apt.
A friend just bought a private house in Atlit for lower price than a large apt on the carmel in HFA.
but many people are used to apartment living that has many benefits as well like views and low maintenance.
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Last edited by avivster; October 14th, 2017 at 02:39 AM.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 01:46 PM   #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avivster View Post
A friend just bought a private house in Atlit for lower price than a large apt on the carmel in HFA.
but many people are used to apartment living that has many benefits as well like views and low maintenance.
On the Carmel, the air is dry and there’s always a nice breeze. In Atlit, the air is very humid and hot and air conditioning is a must. The cost of the electricity alone over a 10 year period will probably match the difference between the prices. There’s always a trade off that’s built to the price. Nothing is cheap. You always pay the price one way or another.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 06:13 PM   #607
matrix2020
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Quote:
Savyon is like a miniature recreation of Bel Air or Brentwood - I wouldn't say the average American suburb is like this.
Not really.
Pretty much any upper middle class neighborhood in USA looks like Savyon.
Land is much cheaper in America.

Quote:
In Western European countries, most people have moved out to the suburbs as well. This idea of a contrast between Western Europe and America on this issue does not exist.
You are wrong.
Suburbs in Europe are home to immigrants and before them local poor people.
The really rich either live far away from the city, or in the city centers.
Many suburbs of London and Paris look more or less like Gaza city.

Quote:
The difference is that in Western Europe, the cities themselves (to which suburbs are attached) are usually nicer than the equivalents in the US.
I think you are referring to city centers.
Indeed city centers in Europe are more lively then centers of most US cities.
But if you step just a few blocks away from the center, and you are in for all kinds of unpleasant surprises.

Quote:
It's not something to generalize. Walk around in the wealthiest suburb of London - there is amazing diversity of beautiful architecture, although with a unifying style
Sure there are some nice suburbs, but most of them aren't.
Good architecture is usually in the city center and the rest is not that great.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 07:06 PM   #608
yishbarr
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I don't know if comparing America and Europe is a good idea, because a lot of the time, metropolises in the US are a result of moving out, while in Europe, it's the primate township that annexes all the surrounding former villages and stuff.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 08:09 PM   #609
chali1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
You are wrong.
Suburbs in Europe are home to immigrants and before them local poor people.
The really rich either live far away from the city, or in the city centers.
Many suburbs of London and Paris look more or less like Gaza city.
Matrix I was working a couple of years in London and Spain.

In the UK, the native upper class and upper middle class, are living in suburbs. And a few rich native people have got an apartment or house in the center of London as well, but their main house is usually in the suburbs.

And in Spain, it's even more pronounced - the fashion is to live in modern suburbs on the outskirts of the city. The immigrants often live in historical medieval part of town, where the buildings are much more cramped (the medieval parts of many cities are full of immigrants).

If you want to see the richest people in Spain, you have to drive usually 15 minutes outside the city center.


--------

To understand about the situation in the UK:

https://www.accountancylive.com/surr...hest-taxpayers
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
You are wrong.
Suburbs in Europe are home to immigrants and before them local poor people.
In the Eastern half of London, was created housing in the 19th century for local native poor people.

But the West of London - the opposite

https://books.google.ru/books?id=_q-...uburbs&f=false

https://books.google.ru/books?id=XaX...uburbs&f=false


Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
Not really.
Pretty much any upper middle class neighborhood in USA looks like Savyon.
Land is much cheaper in America.
Perhaps in the middle of nowhere, far away from the economic centre. The equivalent suburb of Savyon in the US is Brentwood or Bel Air - and those neighbourhoods are not so much cheaper than Israeli equivalent, from looking at the properties for sale https://www.trulia.com/CA/Los_Angeles,7194,Brentwood/

Last edited by chali1; October 14th, 2017 at 08:39 PM.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 08:38 PM   #610
matrix2020
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I know where you lived, but I also know a bit about housing prices in London.
Can't say much about Spain, but in London, prices in the city center are the highest.
It is obvious that people purchasing housing there have got to be extremely rich.
I have been in London quite a bit, and you have poor neighborhoods everywhere.
Both near city center (though not in city center itself), and also in the outskirts.
Even in the parts where Jews/Israelis live (around Golders Green) you have some less then savoury blocks with Somalis, Pakistanis etc.

And I am not sure what you mean by "middle of nowhere".
Most of flyover states are considered by some as "middle of nowhere", but tens of millions of people live there.
Many millions of those live in houses bigger then those in Savyon and on larger lots as well
I was in Chicago at some local's house who lives 15 mins from O'Hare airport, and the guy (who is not even upper middle class) has a house bigger then most of those guys in Savyon, on a huge piece of land with trees, grass and everything else.
Sure, it is more then an hour and a half from downtown, but so what?
Only Israelis are such spoiled brats for whome it would be unacceptable.
Most Americans consider that reasonable.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 08:51 PM   #611
chali1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
I know where you lived, but I also know a bit about housing prices in London.
Can't say much about Spain, but in London, prices in the city center are the highest.
It is obvious that people purchasing housing there have got to be extremely rich.
Yes it's extremely high. Which is why for native British people who can afford apartments in the fashionable parts of London, very often are wealthy people who have an even larger house in the outside of town.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
I have been in London quite a bit, and you have poor neighborhoods everywhere.
Both near city center (though not in city center itself), and also in the outskirts.
Even in the parts where Jews/Israelis live (around Golders Green) you have some less then savoury blocks with Somalis, Pakistanis etc.
Golders Green was originally lower-middle class (with lower middle class Jews living there), but it became better off in the last couple of decades

The rich part of the Jewish community in London lived about 500 meters away in Hampstead.

As for what you are talking about. This is because it is a mixed area (mixed of private owned housing and freely provided public owned housing).

This a policy of the UK since 1945.

http://www.citymetric.com/politics/i...mmunities-2882

Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
I know where you lived, but I also know a bit about housing prices in London.
Can't say much about Spain, but in London, prices in the city center are the highest.
It is obvious that people purchasing housing there have got to be extremely rich.

And I am not sure what you mean by "middle of nowhere".
Most of flyover states are considered by some as "middle of nowhere", but tens of millions of people live there.
Many millions of those live in houses bigger then those in Savyon and on larger lots as well
I was in Chicago at some local's house who lives 15 mins from O'Hare airport, and the guy (who is not even upper middle class) has a house bigger then most of those guys in Savyon, on a huge piece of land with trees, grass and everything else.
Sure, it is more then an hour and a half from downtown, but so what?
Only Israelis are such spoiled brats for whome it would be unacceptable.
Most Americans consider that reasonable.
That is true - you can buy a mansion in Detroit for some tens of thousands of dollars. But this is surely not the equivalent of Savyon, which is right next to the economic heartland. Living in Savyon is not worse than living in Bel Air or Brentwood - the beach is about the same distance, and economic center even closer.

Last edited by chali1; October 14th, 2017 at 09:08 PM.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 10:16 PM   #612
matrix2020
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Quote:
Yes it's extremely high. Which is why for native British people who can afford apartments in the fashionable parts of London, very often are wealthy people who have an even larger house in the outside of town.
I have no doubt that these wealthy Londoners have a country house (at least some of them).
I also don't deny that there are posh suburbs around London.
With that said, there plenty of awful looking suburbs as well.
Indeed there are whole towns near London (such as Luton) that would make Gaza city look like Savyon in comparison.

Quote:
Golders Green was originally lower-middle class (with lower middle class Jews living there), but it became better off in the last couple of decades
The rich part of the Jewish community in London lived about 500 meters away in Hampstead.
I am aware, I am just trying to show that European cities (even in the areas which are considered more or less OK) don't look that great.

Quote:
As for what you are talking about. This is because it is a mixed area (mixed of private owned housing and freely provided public owned housing).
This a policy of the UK since 1945.
Of course, but this is idiocy.
You know what Russians say about adding a spoonful of sh*t to a barrel of honey?
This is yet another example of urban planning ideas in Europe we should avoid like the plague.

Quote:
That is true - you can buy a mansion in Detroit for some tens of thousands of dollars. But this is surely not the equivalent of Savyon, which is right next to the economic heartland. Living in Savyon is not worse than living in Bel Air or Brentwood - the beach is about the same distance, and economic center even closer.
Well, lets put Detroit to rest
There are plenty of perfect, nice towns all over USA with nice middle class citizens who own houses the size of ones found in Savyon and on even larger land plots.
They also have nice manicured grass,big parks, shopping malls and everything else just like in Savyon.
And all that at a fraction of the cost.

Truth be told, there is nothing particularly attractive in Savyon, besides the fact that rich people live in it.
You have awful 3d world looking blocks in Bat Yam that are even closer to the sea and to the economic center
There is nothing magical about Savyon that makes it a place where rich live.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 10:33 PM   #613
chali1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post
I have no doubt that these wealthy Londoners have a country house (at least some of them).
I also don't deny that there are posh suburbs around London.
With that said, there plenty of awful looking suburbs as well.
Indeed there are whole towns near London (such as Luton) that would make Gaza city look like Savyon in comparison.
Lol the planes from UK to Israel fly from Luton - I guess they are doing that to troll us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix2020 View Post

Well, lets put Detroit to rest
There are plenty of perfect, nice towns all over USA with nice middle class citizens who own houses the size of ones found in Savyon and on even larger land plots.
They also have nice manicured grass,big parks, shopping malls and everything else just like in Savyon.
And all that at a fraction of the cost.

Truth be told, there is nothing particularly attractive in Savyon, besides the fact that rich people live in it.
You have awful 3d world looking blocks in Bat Yam that are even closer to the sea and to the economic center
There is nothing magical about Savyon that makes it a place where rich live.
I understand your point that in the US, normal people can afford to live in a similar looking suburb (across a lot of the country) - although I don't think that such a suburb closely connected to cities like LA or New York, costs much less than Savyon. The example of LA - with Brentwood or Bel Air - surely shows. I'm not sure what the equivalent for New York is.

Last edited by chali1; October 14th, 2017 at 10:41 PM.
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Old October 14th, 2017, 10:46 PM   #614
chali1
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An interesting article in Calcalist proposing evacuate-build framework as a strategic way to increase housing supply, given lack of land inventory in Israel:

https://www.calcalist.co.il/local/ar...683801,00.html
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Old October 15th, 2017, 07:50 AM   #615
matrix2020
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Lol the planes from UK to Israel fly from Luton - I guess they are doing that to troll us.
The irony
A funny fact.
An Israeli who lives in Golders Green told me that Luton (the town) is a strictly no go zone for Israelis.
The remark about Gaza is what he said

Quote:
I'm not sure what the equivalent for New York is.
I am not particularly familiar with New York (the State), but surely there are plenty of posh places upstate.
Martha Vineyard for instance (even though it is really much closer to Boston then it is to NYC).
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