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Old December 2nd, 2012, 09:22 PM   #3601
Martin S
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Design Man, You obviously haven't used Liverpool Airport recently if you describe it as 'rubbishy'. Certainly there is scope for some improvement - particularly in airside arrivals but I think it is over the top to want to rebuild it completely.

The present site of Liverpool Airport is excellent given that it is very close to the centre of the city that it serves but has flightpaths mainly over water and agricultural land.

I guess that Burtonwood would have made a great joint airport for Liverpool and Manchester but is water under the bridge now. We have gone down the route of having two separate airports.

In this region, we don't have the same issues as the London area. Runway capacity is not an issue and Liverpool could probably expand to three or four times its present passenger throughput before it became one here. If we were to ever get to the situation that a second runway was needed at Liverpool, a parallel one could be provided partially built into the estuary.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 11:54 AM   #3602
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Hi World Rep. I have actually used Manchester myself on a few occasions. It is quite convenient - just not as convenient as Liverpool and to make the claim that Baldyman does that 'we think nothing of using Manchester' is quite clearly an exaggeration (unless, of course, the 'we' in question consist of people who live in Wilmslow or somewhere).

The whole point, as far as I was concerned, was that we tend to underestimate the value of having this airport on our doorstep. It was not meant as a criticism of Manchester or of people who use Manchester - but obviously you are very sensitive on this issue.

I was talking generically. I actually live 10 mins from Liverpool Airport, (in south Liverpool) it takes me 45 mins to get to Manchester up the M56. What I was saying was when I book a holiday, my first port of call is Manchester, purely because most of the flights leave from there. I have grown up with Manchester being the holiday airport so I know no difference. Like you though, this year I also used Easyjet holidays from Liverpool so I am in a good position to comment, and to be fair, I actually had no sense of preference as to which airport was beter for me. When I am flying anywhere, I only have one priority, make sure I am at the airport on time to catch my flight. I don't do anything else that day other than go on holiday. Saving 45 mins just to fly from LPL does not impact on my day at all. This is my opinion though, not a dig at anybody. Yes if destinations were on offer from Liverpool, at a price I want to pay, I would fly from there. But my decision is based on price and flight times alone, not ease of getting there or saving 45 mins of my day or indeed a sense of loyalty.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 12:32 PM   #3603
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Liverpool John Lennon Airport sign Wizz Air deal

LIVERPOOL John Lennon Airport (JLA) has today signed a deal that keeps Wizz Air, the largest low-cost airline in central and eastern Europe, at the riverside site for another five years.

Wizz Air currently operates three eastern European destinations from Liverpool, to Gdansk and Warsaw in Poland and more recently to Vilnius in Lithuania.

Around 1.3 million passengers have travelled with Wizz Air through Liverpool since the airline selected it as their second UK base in late 2004.

Its flights have proved particularly popular with Polish communities across the North of England.

JLA spokesman Chris Harcombe said: “In recent months we’ve worked hard with the airline to understand how best to realise their ambitions for the North West market.

“We look forward to working with Wizz to grow the range of services available over the coming years.”

Daniel de Carvalho, of Wizz Air, added: “Today is a good day for both Wizz Air and for Liverpool John Lennon Airport.

“We prefer to work with airport partners that work by the same philosophy of low costs and good service.”

Read more: Liverpool Echo http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...#ixzz2Dz3828qQ
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 02:00 PM   #3604
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I live equidistant between Ringway and Speke in time terms. Parochially I prefer to fly from Liverpool, I am supporting a local economy that in turn supports me. However, practicality means that Manchester is often forced upon me.

I have flown four times this year and due to my choice of destination it has had to be Ringway on each occasion - nothing I could change. However, my experience arriving back on Friday evening (30 November) will have an impact on my choice of destination and departure point.

Manchester was ice and fog bound on Friday evening, delays of three hours were advised and numerous flights were cancelled or diverted (to Liverpool and East Midlands). My flight arrived around 90 minutes late and circled the airport for around another 15 minutes awaiting a landing slot.

After making an automatic landing and exiting the runway we waited another fifteen minutes after the 1st Officer announced that a stand had not been allocated as the airport were not expecting us!

When we eventually arrived at the stand no driver for the airbridge could be found. The plane was a 757-300 and should have had two bridges but after 20 minutes one driver was found and passengers disembarked via one door. The flight crew were not amused and let their feelings be well and truly known.

The stand we were on was as far from the arrivals as it was possible to be and the walk with an 80 year old in the party took an age. Immigration was the usual wait and joy and we were greeted by an unsmiling border officer who had obviously just had her dog shot.

As Manchester staff had not expected our flight and had also forgotten to order an airbridge they had also forgotten to arrange for anyone to unload the luggage which took a further one hour after arrival at the conveyor belt.

It is ok having a larger capacity airport with lots of destinations available the trick is to also provide acceptable customer service into the bargain. Something which Manchester airport did not do.

That is why if I could have flown to the destinations I have been to from Liverpool (at the right time and cost as pointed out by previous posters) then believe me that would have been my first choice every time.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 03:17 PM   #3605
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After making an automatic landing and exiting the runway we waited another fifteen minutes after the 1st Officer announced that a stand had not been allocated as the airport were not expecting us!
Well when the same FO asked to divert to BHX thus cancelling his stand allocation, then last minute actually decide he did want to try MAN after all, for him to then blame MAN for the issue is a bit cheeky. I know that's not LPL related at all but wanted to reply to this at the source.

As for the border staff, this is not just a MAN issue, they are a bit sour faced at most UK airports. I've been through MAN, LPL, DSA, LHR, LGW recently, and not one of them raised a smile.
It always annoys me as these guys are supposed to be the 'welcome to the UK' faces, the first faces a visitor sees, yet their dour faces always make me want to get back on the plane again! I know they have a serious job, but come on, a smile isn't going to ruin their credibility, even the US CBP guys smile and have a joke every now and then!
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 05:53 PM   #3606
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Travelling by air? Prepare to be treated like a criminal.

Welcome to the modern western world. Twats.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 08:57 PM   #3607
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Originally Posted by Paul D View Post
Liverpool John Lennon Airport sign Wizz Air deal

LIVERPOOL John Lennon Airport (JLA) has today signed a deal that keeps Wizz Air, the largest low-cost airline in central and eastern Europe, at the riverside site for another five years.

Wizz Air currently operates three eastern European destinations from Liverpool, to Gdansk and Warsaw in Poland and more recently to Vilnius in Lithuania.

Around 1.3 million passengers have travelled with Wizz Air through Liverpool since the airline selected it as their second UK base in late 2004.

Its flights have proved particularly popular with Polish communities across the North of England.

JLA spokesman Chris Harcombe said: “In recent months we’ve worked hard with the airline to understand how best to realise their ambitions for the North West market.

“We look forward to working with Wizz to grow the range of services available over the coming years.”

Daniel de Carvalho, of Wizz Air, added: “Today is a good day for both Wizz Air and for Liverpool John Lennon Airport.

“We prefer to work with airport partners that work by the same philosophy of low costs and good service.”

Read more: Liverpool Echo http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...#ixzz2Dz3828qQ
Another cracking airport deal which confirms nothing new? Is this the new Liverpool airport thing? Would have been nice to see some new routes?
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 09:19 PM   #3608
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Design Man, You obviously haven't used Liverpool Airport recently if you describe it as 'rubbishy'. Certainly there is scope for some improvement - particularly in airside arrivals but I think it is over the top to want to rebuild it completely.

The present site of Liverpool Airport is excellent given that it is very close to the centre of the city that it serves but has flightpaths mainly over water and agricultural land.

I guess that Burtonwood would have made a great joint airport for Liverpool and Manchester but is water under the bridge now. We have gone down the route of having two separate airports.

In this region, we don't have the same issues as the London area. Runway capacity is not an issue and Liverpool could probably expand to three or four times its present passenger throughput before it became one here. If we were to ever get to the situation that a second runway was needed at Liverpool, a parallel one could be provided partially built into the estuary.
Hmmmm. You are slightly missing the point.

Both airports are rubbishy in different ways - Liverpool is scruffy and has a very limited network route; Manchester is not a pleasant airport to go through and for an airport its size (and potential) has a distinctly limited offering. Neither are good enough. The north, and regional Britain, deserve better - better quality, more choice, more destinations.

And you are being a bit short-sighted with the "we have gone down the two airports" route. You think I don't know that? The question is whether as part of national infrastructure investment we want a proper hub outside London. You are assuming that can never happen, but you don't say why. Currently, metro-centric policy says we don't, but how long will that last? I'm arguing for rebalancing and investment in the regions. Of course there are sunk costs in both airports (more so in Manchester) so this would be a big and expensive piece of national infrastructure investment and local airport owners would need to be compensated (perhaps in form of shares) if their provision didn't form part of the future.....but so too is Crossrail, so too is HS2. Would £10bn (or whatever it would cost) in a non-London hub be good value for money to the national taxpayer? I don't know, I think it's worth looking at though.

You may not share my imagination or ambition, I don't know, but please open your mind to the possibility that things can be different. The idea that we just plod along is not ideal, and I am arguing that the local authorities should co-operate, raise their game and make a compelling case for mutual growth and not just endless competition.

Incidentally, do you really think it's rational that so many people from the North and other regions need to take longhaul flights via London, Amsterdam, Paris or Frankfurt? You don't think it's slightly absurd having all those flights from British regional centres into Amsterdam every day, when a well connected hub airport in regional England could provide for such needs?
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 09:22 PM   #3609
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Originally Posted by Paul D View Post
Liverpool John Lennon Airport sign Wizz Air deal

LIVERPOOL John Lennon Airport (JLA) has today signed a deal that keeps Wizz Air, the largest low-cost airline in central and eastern Europe, at the riverside site for another five years.

Wizz Air currently operates three eastern European destinations from Liverpool, to Gdansk and Warsaw in Poland and more recently to Vilnius in Lithuania.

Around 1.3 million passengers have travelled with Wizz Air through Liverpool since the airline selected it as their second UK base in late 2004.

Its flights have proved particularly popular with Polish communities across the North of England.

JLA spokesman Chris Harcombe said: “In recent months we’ve worked hard with the airline to understand how best to realise their ambitions for the North West market.

“We look forward to working with Wizz to grow the range of services available over the coming years.”

Daniel de Carvalho, of Wizz Air, added: “Today is a good day for both Wizz Air and for Liverpool John Lennon Airport.

“We prefer to work with airport partners that work by the same philosophy of low costs and good service.”

Read more: Liverpool Echo http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...#ixzz2Dz3828qQ
In the current environment, all I can say is....GREAT! That's really good news.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 11:19 PM   #3610
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Hmmmm. You are slightly missing the point.

Both airports are rubbishy in different ways - Liverpool is scruffy and has a very limited network route; Manchester is not a pleasant airport to go through and for an airport its size (and potential) has a distinctly limited offering. Neither are good enough. The north, and regional Britain, deserve better - better quality, more choice, more destinations.

And you are being a bit short-sighted with the "we have gone down the two airports" route. You think I don't know that? The question is whether as part of national infrastructure investment we want a proper hub outside London. You are assuming that can never happen, but you don't say why. Currently, metro-centric policy says we don't, but how long will that last? I'm arguing for rebalancing and investment in the regions. Of course there are sunk costs in both airports (more so in Manchester) so this would be a big and expensive piece of national infrastructure investment and local airport owners would need to be compensated (perhaps in form of shares) if their provision didn't form part of the future.....but so too is Crossrail, so too is HS2. Would £10bn (or whatever it would cost) in a non-London hub be good value for money to the national taxpayer? I don't know, I think it's worth looking at though.

You may not share my imagination or ambition, I don't know, but please open your mind to the possibility that things can be different. The idea that we just plod along is not ideal, and I am arguing that the local authorities should co-operate, raise their game and make a compelling case for mutual growth and not just endless competition.

Incidentally, do you really think it's rational that so many people from the North and other regions need to take longhaul flights via London, Amsterdam, Paris or Frankfurt? You don't think it's slightly absurd having all those flights from British regional centres into Amsterdam every day, when a we'll connected hub airport in regional England could provide for such needs?
A lot of issues there Design Man. As it's the title of this thread, I'll start with Liverpool John Lennon Airport. You make two criticisms of our local airport - one that it is 'scruffy' and the other is that it doesn't have a great choice of routes.

Whilst I'm sure that the airport could be cleaner - and I have pet gripes such as the chewing gum trodden into door mats and the cracked floor tiles - that is something that can be addressed with expenditure in the hundreds of thousands. Relocating an airport is more in the range of hundreds of millions and so it's not much of an argument is it?

As for the choice of routes - that has increased exponentially in the last fifteen years and, despite the recent cutbacks, the airport has a very large range of services covering a large part of mainland Europe. Then, within an hour of Liverpool you have Manchester airport, for medium and long haul flights and that is a lot better than for many parts of London.

Of course, there are also a number of positives about Liverpool Airport. I have mentioned its environmental advantages and its closeness to the city centre. Also, it has an almost text-book layout for a single runway airport and the internal layout of the terminal allows easy access from the entrance through to the departure gates.

The hub airport would have been a great idea and in many ways, Burtonwood seemed to be the ideal solution with its existing airfield, close transport links and open approaches to the runways. If the site were still available (which I doubt due to the Omega Business Park proposal), then maybe it could still go ahead.

Failing that though, it is not easy to see just how a multi-runway hub airport could be built in the North-West.

The location of airports is one of the most contentious of planning issues - and for good reason. Not only are airports extremely land hungry but the length, direction and separation distances of runways ensure that almost everywhere that they are proposed, some major problems will turn up - just look at the problems that they are having in the South-East.

That may seem unimaginative and maybe I am being a bit too keen in defending the status quo but I see things differently.

Concreting over more of what is one of the most built-up areas of Europe does not fill me with any enthusiasm. The future does not lie with relentless growth but with developing transport systems that respect the environment.

People deserve a decent environment far more than they deserve 'more choice and destinations'. We can't go on forever ignoring these issues.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 12:35 AM   #3611
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I was talking generically. I actually live 10 mins from Liverpool Airport, (in south Liverpool) it takes me 45 mins to get to Manchester up the M56. What I was saying was when I book a holiday, my first port of call is Manchester, purely because most of the flights leave from there. I have grown up with Manchester being the holiday airport so I know no difference. Like you though, this year I also used Easyjet holidays from Liverpool so I am in a good position to comment, and to be fair, I actually had no sense of preference as to which airport was beter for me. When I am flying anywhere, I only have one priority, make sure I am at the airport on time to catch my flight. I don't do anything else that day other than go on holiday. Saving 45 mins just to fly from LPL does not impact on my day at all. This is my opinion though, not a dig at anybody. Yes if destinations were on offer from Liverpool, at a price I want to pay, I would fly from there. But my decision is based on price and flight times alone, not ease of getting there or saving 45 mins of my day or indeed a sense of loyalty.
Baldyman, It is your decision what airport you want to fly from and what criteria you use in selecting it. I guess I would not have taken issue with your post if you had simply said 'I' thing nothing of travelling to Manchester, rather than 'we' as 'we' includes me as well and I certainly wouldn't think nothing of travelling to Manchester.

Loyalty is important for me but for most of the issues, such as journey time, cost, ease of use Liverpool ticks most of the boxes. Basically, if you can't get to a place from Liverpool its not likely to be worth going to.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 02:08 AM   #3612
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Baldyman, It is your decision what airport you want to fly from and what criteria you use in selecting it. I guess I would not have taken issue with your post if you had simply said 'I' thing nothing of travelling to Manchester, rather than 'we' as 'we' includes me as well and I certainly wouldn't think nothing of travelling to Manchester.
Martin, did you stop for a second and think 'we' referred to his family?


Quote:
Loyalty is important for me but for most of the issues, such as journey time, cost, ease of use Liverpool ticks most of the boxes. Basically, if you can't get to a place from Liverpool its not likely to be worth going to
Really? So basically anywhere outside Europe is not worth going to.

What utter tosh! Are you honestly saying loyalty to LPL is that important to you, you would forego a travel experience if it was not reachable from LPL? What a completely pathetic stance to take!

Im sorry, I know I seem to give you a hard time on here, but that quote really is the crème de la creme of nonsense!

And before you think I am getting personal, Surely you must stop and think before you post, as you know damn well you are opening yourself to ridicule with quotes like that, just as much as if I wrote 'LPL is crap and a poor excuse for an airport, if I have to fly from LPL I refuse to go' on the MAN forum, I quite rightly would expect a response from any LPL poster. (But I don't because I don't have a petty childish grudge against an airport and quite happily use both without any grimace!)

Seriously, grow up. Life is too short to hold views like yours!
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Old December 4th, 2012, 12:38 PM   #3613
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Wow, how a simple comment can be turned on it's head. How you interpret I or WE is up to you, my point (in my opinion) is that to most folk choose their holiday on price and prefer to book a package, and as the majority of package holidays leave from Manchester, they will fly from Manchester, hence the point we think nothing of flying from Manchester, as to most (people I know) it is the norm. Nothing more, nothing less.

MartinS your opinion is relevent to you, as mine is to me, however my points are not a dig at anyone or anything. I am simply talking generally, and taking my opinions from my own experiences and Knowledge...
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Old December 4th, 2012, 09:03 PM   #3614
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Really? So basically anywhere outside Europe is not worth going to.

What utter tosh! Are you honestly saying loyalty to LPL is that important to you, you would forego a travel experience if it was not reachable from LPL? What a completely pathetic stance to take!

Im sorry, I know I seem to give you a hard time on here, but that quote really is the crème de la creme of nonsense!
You could have given me a harder time though Rep by quoting my post where I say that I have used Manchester Airport. Inconsistent or what?

Can you not see when people are being a little tongue in cheek?
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Old December 4th, 2012, 09:23 PM   #3615
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Burtonwood would have actually been a great place for Manchester-Liverpool/Liverpool-Manchester/Warrington International Airport. Right next to the M62 (and only a junction or two from the M6) and the WCML.

Runways





The last part of the old main runway (now covered by junction 8)
The M62 motorway bisects the airfield in an east-west direction over the former main runway 09/27. Before junction 8 was made, the last part of this runway was still visible, but is now covered by Junction 8. Part of the airfield is also occupied by the motorway Welcome Break Burtonwood service station. The other two runways had orientation 03/21 and 14/32.

[edit] Civil uses

In the late 1950s, it was suggested that Burtonwood would be a better site for a regional airport than either of the sites now occupied by Liverpool John Lennon Airport or Manchester Airport. However, subsidence caused by coal mining, plus civic pride, prevented action being taken on the proposal.

In late 2008 and early 2009 the remaining buildings were demolished over a four month period (the storage bunkers pictured in this article). Some of the World War II aircraft hardstands, part of the old airfield perimeter track, and the northwest end of a secondary runway exist.

The area south of the M62 has been cleared of all structures and almost all concreted areas, to make way for the Omega commercial development and the building of a new urban village called Chapelford.

Pablo, if it had alluded to mining subsidence or civic pride, we probably could have ruled out the subsidence reasononing.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 12:25 AM   #3616
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Sorry about the last non-appearing new route announcement. This though is a cast iron certainty (sort of) from this evening's FoLA meeting.

A large airline operating from Liverpool John Lennon Airport is to announce two new routes this coming Thursday. Can't say which airline it is but the future's bright. Don't know the destinations, their start dates or frequency - just that apparently one of them will be a surprise in some way (I took this to mean that it might duplicate an existing route rather than it will be to San Francisco or somewhere).
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Old December 5th, 2012, 12:50 AM   #3617
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Wow, how a simple comment can be turned on it's head. How you interpret I or WE is up to you, my point (in my opinion) is that to most folk choose their holiday on price and prefer to book a package, and as the majority of package holidays leave from Manchester, they will fly from Manchester, hence the point we think nothing of flying from Manchester, as to most (people I know) it is the norm. Nothing more, nothing less.

MartinS your opinion is relevent to you, as mine is to me, however my points are not a dig at anyone or anything. I am simply talking generally, and taking my opinions from my own experiences and Knowledge...
Baldyman, I'm sorry for making a major issue out of this (with some help from World Rep) and the distress it must have caused you.

In a way it reminds me of a few years back when I posted something on a thread about the gay scene in Liverpool. I made a comment in which I used the word 'flamboyant' to describe some aspects of gay behaviour. I suppose I didn't realise that, to gays, this was pandering to a stereotype of the gay man. Safe to say that I wasn't let off the hook and every attempt to make amends just dug me in deeper so that I ended up looking like a raging homophobe who saw all gay men as identikits of Mr Humphreys out of 'Are You Being Served'.

I think you have done something similar here. Here you are saying that 'we' think nothing of using Manchester Airport. Isn't that tantamount to saying that we don't really need an airport at Liverpool as Manchester can cater for all our needs and provide us with a greater choice of destinations? That is an argument that crops up from time to time -and not always from people that are ill-disposed toward Liverpool. So don't be too surprised if Liverpool Airport supporters feel that it needs to be challenged.

If you go on the Manchester Airport thread then, in the last year it has been quite upbeat because of the return to growth after years of stagnation but even in bad times there has never been the existential threat to the airport that is often a feature of the Liverpool Airport forum.

Personally, though I think these are interesting times. The many years of continual growth that LJLA experienced in the late 90s and throughout the 00s had to come to an end at some stage and the low cost sector has now had a major effect on the business of Manchester Airport with implications for the future of both airports. It is interesting that it has been the smaller airport that has determined the future of the larger one throughout these last few years and does raise the question as to whether Manchester is trying to transform itself into a larger version of Liverpool and just how successful it will be at doing that.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 01:11 AM   #3618
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Sorry about the last non-appearing new route announcement. This though is a cast iron certainty (sort of) from this evening's FoLA meeting.

A large airline operating from Liverpool John Lennon Airport is to announce two new routes this coming Thursday. Can't say which airline it is but the future's bright. Don't know the destinations, their start dates or frequency - just that apparently one of them will be a surprise in some way (I took this to mean that it might duplicate an existing route rather than it will be to San Francisco or somewhere).
Do you mean by that a large airline NOT already operating from LPL?
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Old December 5th, 2012, 01:43 AM   #3619
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... new route announcement...a cast iron certainty....A large airline operating from Liverpool John Lennon Airport is to announce two new routes this coming Thursday...it will be to San Francisco or somewhere).
San Francisco! Daily! Maybe the other route will be Sydney? Or Melbourne maybe?
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Old December 5th, 2012, 07:28 AM   #3620
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San Francisco! Daily! Maybe the other route will be Sydney? Or Melbourne maybe?
Sounds like easy jet ie the futures bright the futures orange thats their motto
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