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Old February 22nd, 2006, 12:26 PM   #1
Joka
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Rail Baltica

Thought I might as well post it here as well since it didn't create much interest in the general infrastructure section

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Concerned administrations of Estonia and Brussels are preparing a mega-project according to which a new railroad Rail Baltica in conformity with European standards is going to run through Estonia in several years time. It would take 6 hours to reach Warsaw.

This express railway line, one of the 30 most important development projects of transportation infrastructure, would cost EEK 65 bln., the amount would be spent on building a new railway in the Baltics and Poland. Most of the finances planned for the construction of railway would come from the European Union.
We would like to start preliminary studies in the fall, Anti Moppel, transportation adviser with the Ministry of Economic Affairs and Communications, member of the international working group dealing with the project, said. These studies should answer the questions: which should be the junctions this railway line passes through; which would be the shortest as well as the best route taking into account developments in the Baltic region, Moppel said.
In Moppel’s words it should be analysed whether the planned speed would be 160, 200 or even 300 km/h. If it is going to be an express railway in the European sense of the word, then freight traffic and passenger traffic shall evidently be organised on two separate tracks because speeds are different.
http://www.evr.ee/?id=1812&langchange=1

I'm really looking forward to this, hopefully they will change the line to go through Pärnu though. Would be great to be able to get to those beaches in a hour or two. Assuming a tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn ever gets built.
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Old February 22nd, 2006, 01:08 PM   #2
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You will get to beautiful Jurmala beaches instead
This article rises Estonian officials although all three Baltic states are working at it, according to agreement of three countries signed in 2001. F.e. Latvian side is coordinating cooperation with Poland. In 2004 EU included Rail Baltica in priority project list.

At the end of 2005 there was started feasibility study - Danish company COWI was selected to do the work. Only after the end of this study (end of 2007) it would be possible to judge about the exact route, speeds etc.

I hope that St Petersburg will be connected to this as well - this will increase the potential need for this project. St Petersburg is not included in initial study yet.

"Rail Baltica" project is among the most endangered projects if EU decides to decrease investments in infrastructure. It would be interesting to see the internal rate of return and other economical indicators of this project at the end of 2007. Am afraid that it is not bankable

So the perspectives for this project are not that bright. But this project might help a lot to make Baltics more involved in European economical space.
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Old February 22nd, 2006, 02:00 PM   #3
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I hope that St Petersburg will be connected to this as well - this will increase the potential need for this project. St Petersburg is not included in initial study yet.
Well, Helsinki will be connected to St.Petersbug with "high speed" rail line. Helsinki - Kerva - Lahti commonly know as the "Oikorata" is the first phase of the project and is expected to be completed this year. I did have a huge map showing the whole project but I lost it.

So, unless we get a tunnel between Helsinki and Tallinn(which I doubt), someone is going to have persuade the russians to build some new rail lines. Europe being Russians largest export/import partner, it should happen. I'm 100% sure.
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Old February 22nd, 2006, 05:38 PM   #4
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Oikorata project
http://www.rhk.fi/oikorata/Oikorata_en_paivitys.pdf
is impressive !
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Old February 22nd, 2006, 08:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maris VX
Njaa, I think it would be much more impressive if they built a highspeed line along the coast. Through Sipoo, Porvoo, Loviisa, Kotka, Hamina and to Russia. Who knows, maybe in 50 years

Satama, why do you think the Helsinki - Tallinn tunnel won't get built?
http://www.rhk.fi/projekti/hankekuvaukset_260304.pdf
(Page 14)


Last edited by Joka; February 22nd, 2006 at 08:36 PM.
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Old February 22nd, 2006, 08:47 PM   #6
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Njaa, I think it would be much more impressive if they built a highspeed line along the coast. Through Sipoo, Porvoo, Loviisa, Kotka, Hamina and to Russia. Who knows, maybe in 50 years
No it wouldn't be. Helsinki - Tampere is Finland's busiest rail line of which the oikorata serves. Sure, you would get to St.Peterburg faster if the line went straight to the east, but the economical benefits are far better with the oikorata line.

Quote:
Satama, why do you think the Helsinki - Tallinn tunnel won't get built?
It's f..king costly. And I doubt they could make it profitable, just look at the Eurotunnel.

Last edited by satama; February 22nd, 2006 at 09:03 PM.
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Old February 23rd, 2006, 09:21 AM   #7
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The sooner they start to build the railway the better for Baltic countries. Economy not always play the major role. In this case very important is political decision to integrate Baltic states rail ways to EU.
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Old February 23rd, 2006, 09:35 AM   #8
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The idea is fabulous
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Old February 23rd, 2006, 10:35 AM   #9
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For those who dont't know but rail way system in Baltic states is russian type, it means wider than those in EU. If you want to go by train from Kaunas to Warsaw your train have to change wheels at the cross border
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Old February 23rd, 2006, 12:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liutass
For those who dont't know but rail way system in Baltic states is russian type, it means wider than those in EU. If you want to go by train from Kaunas to Warsaw your train have to change wheels at the cross border
Well at least gauge is the same in Finland (1524 mm)...
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Old February 23rd, 2006, 04:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liutass
For those who dont't know but rail way system in Baltic states is russian type, it means wider than those in EU. If you want to go by train from Kaunas to Warsaw your train have to change wheels at the cross border
If it's going to be a "highspeed line" in the European sense of the word, new infrastructure would most likely be built. Thus it wouldn't really matter if it was compatible with the rest of the Baltic railways. Plus there are "highspeed" trains with changing axel width eg. Spain's railways aren't compatible with that of rest of Europe's.
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Old February 23rd, 2006, 04:37 PM   #12
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Finland is going to use pendolinos which aren't highspeed trains in the European sense of the word.

But
Quote:
Siemens-Russian Railways Project Trimmed Ten Fold
As it turned out, the management upheaval at Russian Railways has cost dear to Siemens – the agreed number of trains to be made under the Siemens-Russian Railways project has been cut down ten fold from 60 to six high-speed trains overall.
Russian Railways focused yesterday, September 29, 2005, on the high-speed future of trains in Russia. The officials canvassed the plans to increase the speed of the trains running from Moscow to St. Petersburg, from St. Petersburg to Helsinki and backwards. As a result of the heated debates, the high-speed program launched in time of the previous president Gennady Fadeev, was changed materially, said Vladimir Yakunin, who is in charge of the Russian Railways today.

Fadeev and Siemens agreed to jointly design and produce the 300 km/hour electric trains based on Inter City Express (ICE-3) at Haover fair in April. At that time, Siemens costs were estimated at over €150 million, while the Russia party was expected to spend around €2 billion, including €1.5 billion to buy about 60 new trains. President Putin said then the German plants would be busy with Russian orders till 2015. As agreed, Siemens was to make out the exact performance specification by June 30 and draw up the draft project by September 30.
http://www.kommersant.com/tree.asp?r...&doc_id=613604


ICE-3 is a high-speed train by European standards.



Are Russians gonna buy them or not, who knows...

Last edited by satama; February 23rd, 2006 at 04:43 PM.
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Old February 23rd, 2006, 07:31 PM   #13
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Find the difference

Reality:


Ideal:
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Old February 24th, 2006, 12:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janis_LV
Ideal:
I think it's good that it's planned to go to Warzaw seeing as it will grow more and more important in Europe. Ideal for me would be:


If they were to build this line at 300km/h before 2020 I would spontaneously combust of joy.
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Old February 24th, 2006, 11:18 AM   #15
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@Jape, here I agree. Warsaw and Baltic cities would be a lot more important themselves. And having Vilnius in this line would be clever as well - that would help the city a lot to become regional centre - because with such line going through it it would be a lot more interesting for Minsk too.
But now we are just phantasizing only
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Old February 24th, 2006, 12:02 PM   #16
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Latvia need the train not to get to Poland - we need the train to get to the western Europe. Berlin, Hamburg, Amsterdam, Brussel, Paris, London. Not to Warsaw. Who needs to go to Warsaw. The rail through Warsaw to get to Berlin is very rounabout. But of course we are repeating the same mistakes the builders of early railways did - every vilage wanted rail, so now we have rail going through village while big cities remain without effective rail connections.

As Latvian, of course, I think - the more money we get from EU, the better. If they can't find where to spend their money - they are welcome to build a also a tunnel to warsaw and canal for passenger ferries. But as European - I think it is waste of money. billions to connect Tallinn with Warsaw.Maybe later they will build extension to Bucharesti? LOL.
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Old February 24th, 2006, 12:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
Who needs to go to Warsaw.
Industries etc. Are you seriously short-sighted or something?
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Old February 24th, 2006, 01:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janis_LV
Latvia need the train not to get to Poland - we need the train to get to the western Europe. Berlin, Hamburg, Amsterdam, Brussel, Paris, London. Not to Warsaw. Who needs to go to Warsaw. .
I disagree with you. Please think more strategical ! Latvia need more connection with Central Europe (not only railway, but also energy systems should be more connected). And let me remind you, that there is Poland between Latvia and "Berlin, Hamburg, Amsterdam, etc" Of course you can use planes(i use it too) , but clever people never throw any options .
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Old February 24th, 2006, 01:10 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janis_LV
Latvia need the train not to get to Poland - we need the train to get to the western Europe. Berlin, Hamburg, Amsterdam, Brussel, Paris, London. Not to Warsaw. Who needs to go to Warsaw. The rail through Warsaw to get to Berlin is very rounabout. But of course we are repeating the same mistakes the builders of early railways did - every vilage wanted rail, so now we have rail going through village while big cities remain without effective rail connections.

As Latvian, of course, I think - the more money we get from EU, the better. If they can't find where to spend their money - they are welcome to build a also a tunnel to warsaw and canal for passenger ferries. But as European - I think it is waste of money. billions to connect Tallinn with Warsaw.Maybe later they will build extension to Bucharesti? LOL.

OMG how dumb you are ! I would rather say that Who needs to go from Warsaw to Riga !!??
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Old February 24th, 2006, 01:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janis_LV
Latvia need the train not to get to Poland - we need the train to get to the western Europe. Berlin, Hamburg, Amsterdam, Brussel, Paris, London. Not to Warsaw. Who needs to go to Warsaw. The rail through Warsaw to get to Berlin is very rounabout. But of course we are repeating the same mistakes the builders of early railways did - every vilage wanted rail, so now we have rail going through village while big cities remain without effective rail connections.
In 20-50 years there's not going to be the west-east divison, atleast not as we know it today. My humble, completely out of the hat estimate is that in 50 years Warsaw will be one of the "top 5 cities" in the EU. So plenty of people will "need to go to Warsaw"

Besides, you can't draw the line through Kalingrad, and Kaunas-Warsaw-Berlin is some 120km longer than Kaunas-Berlin. If Berlin is where you want to go. And this is the reality, Warsaw is going to - If this whole thing ever gets built- be the end stop of Rail Baltica. Hopefully Helsinki will be the other end via tunnel

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